What will get all you amazing Civ4 modders...

If you think city management, which is the most important aspect of actually building a civilization under the mechanics of this game, is just an annoying factor that distracts you from warfare, you have missed the point of the series. As have the creators of Civ5.

*Jaw Drops* They took out city management? Are they pleading temporary insanity? I can't believe that. Like I said, Steam stopped me very short. But this "development" takes Civ5 out of the 4x category in my book. It is too bad too, because Civ V had some wonderful innovations with the map. I love the idea of hexagons since it is the best way to break the surface of a sphere into nearly equal polygons not to mention its strategic implications. But the more I hear, the more I believe the map is the only wonderful thing about Civ V.
 
Anything is possible. That doesn't make it reasonable. Obama could change his mind about redistributing wealth. Romney could become an environmentalist. But I am not going to hold my breath.

Must... Not...

I give in.

Obama has not 'redistributed wealth'. He has not talked about or tried to 'redistribute wealth'. Now if you would please stop spreading misinformation, a lot of people who just want truth would be made very happy.

(To a certain extent, the very purpose of the government is to redistribute wealth. If one defines wealth as not just pure money, but as value in general, the purpose of even the simplest governments is to take money in the form of taxes and redistribute it to all in the form of protection from invaders and criminals. But, hypothetically, we are not supposed to be arguing about politics and political theory here. We are supposed to be arguing about Civ5.)
 
*Jaw Drops* They took out city management? Are they pleading temporary insanity? I can't believe that. Like I said, Steam stopped me very short. But this "development" takes Civ5 out of the 4x category in my book. It is too bad too, because Civ V had some wonderful innovations with the map. I love the idea of hexagons since it is the best way to break the surface of a sphere into nearly equal polygons not to mention its strategic implications. But the more I hear, the more I believe the map is the only wonderful thing about Civ V.

I played a little CiV before I realized it was terrible, and no, they didn't exactly take out city management. They dumbed it down, but it's still in there in it's most basic forms. And I agree about hexagons.
 
Please no! I am just learning how to mod civIV, if you change to civV, I will be pissed off, plus all those epic mods like Caveman2Cosmos and RFC Mods will be closed! Do you want that to happen? NO!
 
It's much more rewarding to take a great game and try and to enhance it, than it is to take an inherently broken game and try to fix it. G&K has some cool ideas, but the fundamental flaws of Civ5 are still there underneath.

Furthermore, Mac modders like myself are completely shut out by the Modbuddy system which was designed to run exclusively on Windows.
 
*Jaw Drops* They took out city management? Are they pleading temporary insanity? I can't believe that. Like I said, Steam stopped me very short. But this "development" takes Civ5 out of the 4x category in my book. It is too bad too, because Civ V had some wonderful innovations with the map. I love the idea of hexagons since it is the best way to break the surface of a sphere into nearly equal polygons not to mention its strategic implications. But the more I hear, the more I believe the map is the only wonderful thing about Civ V.
No, they didn't take it out, sorry if my post implied that. But they dumbed it down, with global happiness pools and whatnot.

I was more reacting to Jatta Pake's argument that characterized Civ4 as riddled by micromanagement, which it really isn't (sure you can get some extra benefits by extensive micromanaging, and need to do so on the highest difficulty levels, but you can easily play the game on Emperor without going crazy about reassigning citizens in all of your cities every turn). So I think he implied that city management itself is an annoying aspect of the game which needs to be toned down to make it enjoyable, which I emphatically disagree with for a game that is all about civilization building.
 
Please no! I am just learning how to mod civIV, if you change to civV, I will be pissed off, plus all those epic mods like Caveman2Cosmos and RFC Mods will be closed! Do you want that to happen? NO!

Don't worry, we're not going ANYWHARE
 
Please no! I am just learning how to mod civIV, if you change to civV, I will be pissed off, plus all those epic mods like Caveman2Cosmos and RFC Mods will be closed! Do you want that to happen? NO!

C2C will remain under heavy development for the forseeable future, don't be concerned. :)
 
Just out of curiosity, why do you guys hate steam so much? I am apparently missing something here.
 
Just out of curiosity, why do you guys hate steam so much? I am apparently missing something here.

In my case my old machine and "remote" internet access means that I often can not get on to Steam so that I can turn it off and play. This may have changed in the last few years but a bad experience is a bad experience and as the saying goes "once burned twice shy".
 
I hope I didn't ruffle too many feathers. I was intentionally provocative because I know very little about modding, and I wanted to really understand why you guys keep on modding Civ4.

I'll be honest, I am very intrigued by those who are arguing that Civ4 will outlive Civ5 due to the modding community. I've been digging around the Civ5 mod area, and there is some good stuff but nothing like here. Any given day there are dozens of people online in in the Civ4 area matching the traffic of Civ5 (at least it appears that way).

Rhye seems to be working on a Civ5 mod and others are diligently importing Civ4 mod units into Civ5. Is there any chance all the hard work on Civ4 mods can easily translate to Civ5? Or is it starting over from the ground up?

I know little about modbuddy but it doesn't seem like it is required to mod civ5. Hasn't Firaxis promised to release a civ5 sdk? Or do you think they view that as a colossal blunder with Civ4 by cutting off a revenue stream from DLC? From where I sit, I don't mind spending a few bucks on DLC knowing I will be getting a) a product that works (or is bug fixed quickly) and b) integrates nicely with the core game.

The next logical step in my opinion, would be an App like store where people can buy mods (or get for free like the App store). Mod makers should profit from their invested time and Firaxis could sit back with a LEAN operation taking a cut of the transactions. Development would be focused on basic program performance. Admittedly, they would be less game maker and more platform developer. But let's face it, as it stands today, civ4 mod makers are making more games than Firaxis.

At some point, civ4 modders will say "screw it, I'm making my own 4X game" for publication and sale rather than mod civ5.
 
At some point, civ4 modders will say "screw it, I'm making my own 4X game" for publication and sale rather than mod civ5.
HA ! that's what Firaxis did to their CIV4 modding community when they brought out that fancy hex map . They could bring back Sorren Johnsen and open up even more of their classic to modders .. but that would be too much of a good thing ...
 
I hope I didn't ruffle too many feathers. I was intentionally provocative because I know very little about modding, and I wanted to really understand why you guys keep on modding Civ4.
Okay, I in turn apologize for getting a little bit too passionate about my low opinion of Civ5's game design.

I'll be honest, I am very intrigued by those who are arguing that Civ4 will outlive Civ5 due to the modding community. I've been digging around the Civ5 mod area, and there is some good stuff but nothing like here. Any given day there are dozens of people online in in the Civ4 area matching the traffic of Civ5 (at least it appears that way).
That's not surprising considering how Firaxis didn't make any attempt to make modders switch to Civ5, else they would have released the SDK a lot sooner. This allowed more complex long-term projects to emerge in the Civ4 community, whose creators are now even more reluctant to abandon them because of the work already invested.

That's not even considering that the overall response to Civ5 has been rather lukewarm even beyond the initial "they changed it so it sucks" reaction.

Rhye seems to be working on a Civ5 mod and others are diligently importing Civ4 mod units into Civ5. Is there any chance all the hard work on Civ4 mods can easily translate to Civ5? Or is it starting over from the ground up?
I don't know what Rhye is doing exactly, since I don't visit the Civ5 C&C forums, but it's been a while since he posted anything about a new RFC incarnation in the old Civ4 forum and it was still very rudimentary (which is not a surprise without DLL modding). Personally I'm not interested in RFCiv5 anyway, because the game style makes world maps even more unfeasible than in Civ4 (don't want my archers to shoot across the English Channel).

And beyond the concept phase, basically everything would have to be done from ground up. Even if it is just plugging in everything into new file formats / programming languages, that's almost the same work as starting a new mod. And that ignoring the fact that most mods have game design of their own which is based on the game they modify, so maybe it isn't even applicable to Civ5.

I know little about modbuddy but it doesn't seem like it is required to mod civ5. Hasn't Firaxis promised to release a civ5 sdk? Or do you think they view that as a colossal blunder with Civ4 by cutting off a revenue stream from DLC? From where I sit, I don't mind spending a few bucks on DLC knowing I will be getting a) a product that works (or is bug fixed quickly) and b) integrates nicely with the core game.

The next logical step in my opinion, would be an App like store where people can buy mods (or get for free like the App store). Mod makers should profit from their invested time and Firaxis could sit back with a LEAN operation taking a cut of the transactions. Development would be focused on basic program performance. Admittedly, they would be less game maker and more platform developer. But let's face it, as it stands today, civ4 mod makers are making more games than Firaxis.
Yes, I also suspect that Firaxis has become afraid of its own modding community and views them as a threat to their desire to milk more money from the franchise (which is rather pathetic for a professional game developer, actually).

However, as a modder myself I really have to reject the idea that modders should make money out of their "work", which is essentially a hobby they pursue for enjoyment. Every mod depends on the work of others, whether it is graphics, bits of code, or even advice. Once larger mods started making money, those responsible for these aspects would be entitled their share of it, which just isn't feasible considering the number of people who were willing to pay for a mod. So this would eventually just dissuade people from freely contributing to the community and thus drying up the whole community.

At some point, civ4 modders will say "screw it, I'm making my own 4X game" for publication and sale rather than mod civ5.
Yeah, but I don't think making money is the motivation of the majority of modders. And making a new game is levels above the required skills for making a mod. There's a reason 4X community projects are rare.

HA ! that's what Firaxis did to their CIV4 modding community when they brought out that fancy hex map . They could bring back Sorren Johnsen and open up even more of their classic to modders .. but that would be too much of a good thing ...
They should bring back Soren Johnson and make a well designed Civ6, period.
 
The next logical step in my opinion, would be an App like store where people can buy mods (or get for free like the App store). Mod makers should profit from their invested time and Firaxis could sit back with a LEAN operation taking a cut of the transactions. Development would be focused on basic program performance. Admittedly, they would be less game maker and more platform developer. But let's face it, as it stands today, civ4 mod makers are making more games than Firaxis.
Oh here we go, is there nowhere free of American Capitalist dogma? It is not logical or desirable to start charging money for mods as it will kill the cooperative sharing which all mods depend on for their existence.
The very essence of mod making is open source, indeed the very essence of the internet is open source.
We are happy to share, to help and encourage one another for free please read the The Modiquette to try and get an understanding of the true nature of modding
and take your money making elsewhere.
 
The next logical step in my opinion, would be an App like store where people can buy mods (or get for free like the App store). Mod makers should profit from their invested time and Firaxis could sit back with a LEAN operation taking a cut of the transactions. Development would be focused on basic program performance. Admittedly, they would be less game maker and more platform developer. But let's face it,
That would be a f**king nightmare. The beauty of mods is very much in that anyone can download and play them. What you're suggesting sounds like DLC, which, incidentally, I also despise. If such a system was set up, I would... I don't even know what I'd do. For sure I wouldn't touch such a system, or any game with such a system.

Make no mistake, I wouldn't get mad if some rich guy decided to pay all the modders, but modding isn't about making money, it's about making something fun and beautiful. And I wouldn't sell my mods even if it was legal and I knew people would buy them.

Oh here we go, is there nowhere free of American Capitalist dogma? It is not logical or desirable to start charging money for mods as it will kill the cooperative sharing which all mods depend on for their existence.
The very essence of mod making is open source, indeed the very essence of the internet is open source.
You said it better than I did.
We are happy to share, to help and encourage one another for free please read the The Modiquette to try and get an understanding of the true nature of modding and take your money making elsewhere.
Yes, you clearly don't get the point. You sound like that rich capitalist movie villain who's trying to turn the forest into a strip mine or whatnot.
 
Sorry, let me clarify the "mods for profit" comment. Leoreth makes sense as most mods rely on shared work, and rights issues would make selling open source generated mods unfeasible. So agreed on that aspect.

Criticisms of capitalism aside, I think the "for profit" model would work for DLC type mods where all pieces are proprietary of the creator. Meaning modders who create original model textures, icons, UI, etc could profit from their creation. I know this idea is anathema to the Modiquette here but that doesn't mean the idea couldn't flourish elsewhere. Not all folks posting mods via Steam are putting them here too. And it wouldnt take away from the mod community here, who would be free to continue modding away. After all we have modders here doing mod commissions for pay now. Why not provide a marketplace for these people and expand the scope? The next Sid Meier may be a starving college student right now. What's wrong with letting him make few bucks?

Critiques of capitalism usually detail alleged worker exploitation, like Bain Capital buying a business, racking up massive debt while moving all cash to a tax haven, then firing all the workers after writing off everything as a loss. But a mod marketplace would be the opposite. It would allow the workers to sell their work directly to the consumer. I think Firaxis has reasoned it is more profitable to develop DLC in house and sell it themselves. But aren't the Firaxis workers being exploited then?

As compared to what is happening now, folks would be far less exploited in my scenario. We would also likely have many more options.
 
The very essence of mod making is open source, indeed the very essence of the internet is open source.

The "Open Source" essence of the Internet exists nicely along with my very encrypted closed source essence used when I buy books on Amazon and order via credit card. One doesn't exclude the other.

I have read the Moddiqette and it applies to this site and forum. I think it is very nice.

By the way, American Capitalist Dogma rules planet earth so you really have no hope of escaping it online. It is also destroying the planet, but pay no attention to that. I am confident the ingenuity of my fellow countrymen will invent a solution to the apocalypse that I cannot afford. :p
 
:nono:



Eh, where? Would have to like a word with them, it's against the forum rules.


Oh, and this thread has totally gone offtopic...

Sorry, I've only been inferring based on posts and didn't realize selling/buying mods was against forum rules. Although I think you'll agree that off forum transactions can't be policed (I'm not buying or selling just to be clear).

Anyway, to take us back on topic:

In summary it seems the consensus of Civ4 modders is they may start modding Civ5 if:

* Steam is not required to play or use a mod,
* Modbuddy is not required to to make a mod,
* Firaxis releases their long promised SDK,
* Modders can mod the DLL or I/O
* Modders can change rules like 1UPT, change city management, code events
* Civ5 can be adapted to be like Civ4 core gameplay.

Modders do not care about:

* Money
* the fact Civ5 is "new"
* Civ5 style and glitz

The draws of moving to Civ5 to mod are:

* Hex map
* ??????????

I think the following could be draws but I don't know:

* LUA is faster than Python
* Modular design makes combining mods easier
* Far more detailed feature set to build upon and use
* More powerful AI to utilize (if it can be cracked open and tinkered with)

Based on the above, I think most modders are holding out for Civ6 unless Firaxis does something big for the modders. Personally, I think Firaxis wants to milk the final drops out of potential DLC before they allow modders to break open the good stuff.
 
Sorry, let me clarify the "mods for profit" comment. Leoreth makes sense as most mods rely on shared work, and rights issues would make selling open source generated mods unfeasible. So agreed on that aspect.

Criticisms of capitalism aside, I think the "for profit" model would work for DLC type mods where all pieces are proprietary of the creator. Meaning modders who create original model textures, icons, UI, etc could profit from their creation. I know this idea is anathema to the Modiquette here but that doesn't mean the idea couldn't flourish elsewhere. Not all folks posting mods via Steam are putting them here too. And it wouldnt take away from the mod community here, who would be free to continue modding away. After all we have modders here doing mod commissions for pay now. Why not provide a marketplace for these people and expand the scope? The next Sid Meier may be a starving college student right now. What's wrong with letting him make few bucks?
Well, in general I disagree with your narrative that there are hundreds of modders out there who would want or need to make profit off their projects. I am a university student by the way, and while I'm neither the next Sid Meier nor starving, it's not like I wouldn't need some extra money. But I never would sell my mod. The first reason is that it was developed with the assistance of the community here; I'm completely aware that nobody would've paid a cent for the initial version of my mod, but since it was free many did give it a try regardless. The feedback they gave me was essential in reaching the point where the mod is now; without the bug reports, suggestions and just the general motivation that came from knowing people were playing it, I never would've made it this far.

This personal example aside, your model of for-free-modders and for-profit-modders would still destroy the modding community. Take Bakuel's units for example. They are of very high quality, and I'm sure there are people who'd pay for them if necessary. Now look at edead's Sword of Islam mod. Again, an extremely high quality mod, whose appeal also comes from the fact how immersively it portrays the Middle East by using appropriate music and graphics, including Bakuel's unit graphics. They would have never made it in there without being free. And that is true for every flavor aspect of the mod, essentially - with a for profit community we may never have seen SoI, and that is regardless of whether edead wanted to make money off it or not (which he doesn't, and he even was directly approached by people offering to pay him).

By the way, American Capitalist Dogma rules planet earth so you really have no hope of escaping it online.
Oh, I think that the internet has already provided several ways to do just that.

Take, um, for example, the modding community as it exists now.

In summary it seems the consensus of Civ4 modders is they may start modding Civ5 if:

* Steam is not required to play or use a mod,
* Modbuddy is not required to to make a mod,
* Firaxis releases their long promised SDK,
* Modders can mod the DLL or I/O
* Modders can change rules like 1UPT, change city management, code events
* Civ5 can be adapted to be like Civ4 core gameplay.
Yeah, but what would be the point? Why invest that much work to turn an inferior product into its superior counterpart when it already exists?

I may have started Civ5 if I considered it a game worth playing and improving. Modders can't fix flawed game design; it would be essentially like making a completely new game. Which again, is pointless if you already have a game with good game design to work with.

The draws of moving to Civ5 to mod are:

* Hex map
* ??????????
I'm completely ambivalent with regards to hexes vs. squares. But yes, a lot of question marks regarding the appeal of Civ5 compared to Civ4. Better graphics, perhaps (I don't like it, but I'm not that graphics minded anyway)?

I think the following could be draws but I don't know:

* LUA is faster than Python
* Modular design makes combining mods easier
* Far more detailed feature set to build upon and use
* More powerful AI to utilize (if it can be cracked open and tinkered with)

Based on the above, I think most modders are holding out for Civ6 unless Firaxis does something big for the modders. Personally, I think Firaxis wants to milk the final drops out of potential DLC before they allow modders to break open the good stuff.
- Is LUA faster than Python? I really don't know, but I'm a Python fan, simply because I like its syntax, so I'm not neutral here anyway ;)
- What does Civ5 do differently with modular design than Civ4 BtS?
- I don't know what you mean with a more detailed feature set
- More powerful AI? :lol:
 
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