• Civilization 7 has been announced. For more info please check the forum here .

What is your opinion on Venice possibly being included as a civ?

What is your opinion on Venice possibly being included as a civ in BNW?

  • I think it's a great idea

    Votes: 135 32.4%
  • Good choice, but I would have preferred another civ

    Votes: 125 30.0%
  • Not too thrilled

    Votes: 157 37.6%

  • Total voters
    417
The issue with Venice is that in and of itself it has Glass and Canals other than that what does it have to set itself above any of many many Euro choices through the course of history.

Venice was (arguably) the dominant force in Europe at its heyday. The actions of Venice would be affecting those up north in England, as well as South into Africa. Poland and Hungary didn't have the same effect on the continent. I doubt that many Iberians ever even concerned themselves with the actions of any Polish Kingdom. Venice brought upon exploration and trade in droves through Marco Polo's expedition to China. Many of the wealthiest merchants lived in Venice. Venice constructed a world class navy that was rivalled by none. Venice organized the Fourth Crusade, and used Crusaders from around Europe for its own personal gain (attacking a rebellious Venetian city.) It then used the Crusaders to carry out (arguably) the most infamous sacking of a city in history, Constantinople's. Constantinople, being the crown jewel of the Byzantine Empire, one of the greatest empires the Mediterranean has ever seen, brought to its knees by the clever manoeuvring of Venetians. (A sacking that is IMHO, much more impressive than conquering Moscow at one of its lowest points of history.) (Not that I'm some disturbing person who takes joy in rape and pillaging!)

I think an innovative and dominant trade civ that fuelled exploration and found a route to conquering through creative diplomacy and trade deserves a spot much more than 'the most powerful central-eastern european country in the medieval era'.
 
Poland's modern history is both inspiring and hilarious.

*after WWI, allowed to be a thing again*

Poland: YAY

*Hitler and Stalin happen*

Poland: Oh...

*after WWII, allowed to be a thing again*

Poland: YAY

*communism happens*

Poland: Oh...

*communism completely implodes in on itself*

Poland: YAY

*post-communism happens, shares border with Belarus*

Polnad: Oh...

*is actually a post-communist country that is a decent place to live*

Poland: YAY

Eurocentric folk think the Renaissance was meaningful. It was a minor stage and it had little effect on the lives of the average man or woman. Up until the 1800s, Europe was very much lagging behind China and only beginning to catch up.

People have an overglorified view of the importance of Europe between the Fall of Rome and Opium War. Even Rome was arguably inferior to the cultural flowering already booming in the East, and the Islamic advances up until the Mongolian invasion is, again, far more productive than Europe during the same time period.

This reads like bizarro-Stormfront lol

"PRIMITIVE WHITE PEOPLE, NOT REACHING THE GLORIOUS TECHNOLOGICAL ADVANCEMENT OF THE GRAND HMONG RACE"
 
At the time of the 4th crusade, Constantinople was pretty much all that was left of the Byzantine empire.
 
Venice Venice Venice!

if they add Venice, she will be my second favourite faction.
 
This reads like bizarro-Stormfront lol

"PRIMITIVE WHITE PEOPLE, NOT REACHING THE GLORIOUS TECHNOLOGICAL ADVANCEMENT OF THE GRAND HMONG RACE"

The difference being, of course, they didn't. If the entire European continent is orienting its economy and overseas colonization for the sole purpose of gaining silver to trade on Chinese markets well up to the Opium War, then it is clear which side was superior economically.

But please, tell me how 1500 Spain was even on the same level as 1500 China. Or even 1600. Or even 1700.

Or even 1800. This is basic historic fact.
 
Not too thrilled, there are too many European civs as is. Given the number of non-European civs still unrepresented it just feels like overkill.
 
Venice was (arguably) the dominant force in Europe at its heyday. The actions of Venice would be affecting those up north in England, as well as South into Africa. Poland and Hungary didn't have the same effect on the continent. I doubt that many Iberians ever even concerned themselves with the actions of any Polish Kingdom. Venice brought upon exploration and trade in droves through Marco Polo's expedition to China. Many of the wealthiest merchants lived in Venice. Venice constructed a world class navy that was rivalled by none. Venice organized the Fourth Crusade, and used Crusaders from around Europe for its own personal gain (attacking a rebellious Venetian city.) It then used the Crusaders to carry out (arguably) the most infamous sacking of a city in history, Constantinople's. Constantinople, being the crown jewel of the Byzantine Empire, one of the greatest empires the Mediterranean has ever seen, brought to its knees by the clever manoeuvring of Venetians. (A sacking that is IMHO, much more impressive than conquering Moscow at one of its lowest points of history.) (Not that I'm some disturbing person who takes joy in rape and pillaging!)

I think an innovative and dominant trade civ that fuelled exploration and found a route to conquering through creative diplomacy and trade deserves a spot much more than 'the most powerful central-eastern european country in the medieval era'.

Sigh okay here's another version of those same events.

The 4th Crusade - The Germans and English ignored it and the army was almost entirely made up of a bunch of French and Italians who of course proceeded to Jerusalem as they were tasked too ... oh no wait instead they attacked the Christian Eastern Roman Empire acting like barbarians. They established a latin empire in Byzantia which lasted about 2 years before collapsing under counter-attacks. The Crusade was seen as an utter failure although the barbarian horde did of course bring back plenty of stolen treasures. 150 years later when the weakened Byzantines finally succumbs to the Ottomans the Venitians found themselves getting slaughtered. A handful of Crusaders actually made it to the Holy Land. All up 5 years of utter stupidity that other than lining the pockets of some of the barbarian horde ended up acheiving nothing except weakening their eastern borders to the encroaching Islamic forces.

Enrico Dandolo might be cool visually but his actions in the 4th Crusade make him that ages equivalent of Hitler - a brutal war criminal.

The Venitian's really were a Eastern Med power and had little influence over Spain, Portugal, The Dutch or England who rarely imported goods from the Venitian trade network (note English cuisine has little Italian influence until much later). When the Age of Exploration began in the 1400's Venice's ludicrously outdated navy proved their undoing as a trade power as the aforementioned Western European nations found far more efficient and lucrative trade routes.

So their iconic leader is a war criminal, their Crusade was either a failure or more accurately a charade to cover their effective Piracy, their trade power is overrated, their vaunted navy was a bunch of galleys which saw them limited to their part of the Eastern Med and ultimately their own stupidity and greed saw their chance to become a true enduring power destroyed by an enemy that they would probably have avoided if not for their Crusade.

They are the Bozo the clowns of the Civ series. A joke.

The truth of course is somewhere in between. Had they had more foresight and not sacked Constantinople or had they upgraded their navy when everybody else did then they would probably have become an enduring power. In the end they made a heap of errors that led to their slow decline. They had a decent run from 1200 to 1450 but after the Ottomans took Constantinople in 1453 their chances of enduring grandeur as a power ended and they declined.

So they are worthy of consideration but again I point to Keivan Rus, Florence, The Papal States, Aragon, The Visigoths, The Vandals, The Scots, HRE, Yugoslavia, Hungary Burgandy,the Golden Horde, The Khazars, etc etc and say that frankly Venice is no more worthy than them and it could be argued that they are probably less worthy than half of them. To me they are not even the most obvious choice for this expansion out of the Italian city states because Florence and the Papal States (which is a mix of France/Italy) offer more obviously unique design elements to me. I also dont necessarily see them that far in front of any of the other Italian CS style factions.

If they are in they are in and that's fine by me but lets not oversell them. They are a mid level Euro power that much like other mid level Euro power rose and fell. At their height they had a shot at becoming a major power but faltered and fell back to the pack. That isn't particularly unusual Kievan Rus faltered before the Mongols, The Scots Aragon, and Burgandy were absorbed etc etc.

If designed right they have plenty of elements that could make for a good civ to play. If designed poorly they will be a tremendously bad inclusion because unless they have come up with something interesting design wise there was no need to bring them in.
 
Sigh okay here's another version of those same events.

The 4th Crusade - The Germans and English ignored it and the army was almost entirely made up of a bunch of French and Italians who of course proceeded to Jerusalem as they were tasked too ... oh no wait instead they attacked the Christian Eastern Roman Empire acting like barbarians. They established a latin empire in Byzantia which lasted about 2 years before collapsing under counter-attacks. The Crusade was seen as an utter failure although the barbarian horde did of course bring back plenty of stolen treasures. 150 years later when the weakened Byzantines finally succumbs to the Ottomans the Venitians found themselves getting slaughtered. A handful of Crusaders actually made it to the Holy Land. All up 5 years of utter stupidity that other than lining the pockets of some of the barbarian horde ended up acheiving nothing except weakening their eastern borders to the encroaching Islamic forces.

Enrico Dandolo might be cool visually but his actions in the 4th Crusade make him that ages equivalent of Hitler - a brutal war criminal.

The Venitian's really were a Eastern Med power and had little influence over Spain, Portugal, The Dutch or England who rarely imported goods from the Venitian trade network (note English cuisine has little Italian influence until much later). When the Age of Exploration began in the 1400's Venice's ludicrously outdated navy proved their undoing as a trade power as the aforementioned Western European nations found far more efficient and lucrative trade routes.

So their iconic leader is a war criminal, their Crusade was either a failure or more accurately a charade to cover their effective Piracy, their trade power is overrated, their vaunted navy was a bunch of galleys which saw them limited to their part of the Eastern Med and ultimately their own stupidity and greed saw their chance to become a true enduring power destroyed by an enemy that they would probably have avoided if not for their Crusade.

They are the Bozo the clowns of the Civ series. A joke.

The truth of course is somewhere in between. Had they had more foresight and not sacked Constantinople or had they upgraded their navy when everybody else did then they would probably have become an enduring power. In the end they made a heap of errors that led to their slow decline. They had a decent run from 1200 to 1450 but after the Ottomans took Constantinople in 1453 their chances of enduring grandeur as a power ended and they declined.

So they are worthy of consideration but again I point to Keivan Rus, Florence, The Papal States, Aragon, The Visigoths, The Vandals, The Scots, HRE, Yugoslavia, Hungary Burgandy,the Golden Horde, The Khazars, etc etc and say that frankly Venice is no more worthy than them and it could be argued that they are probably less worthy than half of them. To me they are not even the most obvious choice for this expansion out of the Italian city states because Florence and the Papal States (which is a mix of France/Italy) offer more obviously unique design elements to me. I also dont necessarily see them that far in front of any of the other Italian CS style factions.

If they are in they are in and that's fine by me but lets not oversell them. They are a mid level Euro power that much like other mid level Euro power rose and fell. At their height they had a shot at becoming a major power but faltered and fell back to the pack. That isn't particularly unusual Kievan Rus faltered before the Mongols, The Scots Aragon, and Burgandy were absorbed etc etc.

If designed right they have plenty of elements that could make for a good civ to play. If designed poorly they will be a tremendously bad inclusion because unless they have come up with something interesting design wise there was no need to bring them in.

I can pretty much agree to all of that. But your last paragraph brings up the paramount point. Someone at Firaxis came up with such an intriguing design for Venice so as to overlook their problems. It is probably a bombshell. There's a 50/50 chance that it is in its own hypercube. Venice is going to be a gamechanger.
 
Eurocentric folk think the Renaissance was meaningful. It was a minor stage and it had little effect on the lives of the average man or woman. Up until the 1800s, Europe was very much lagging behind China and only beginning to catch up.

People have an overglorified view of the importance of Europe between the Fall of Rome and Opium War. Even Rome was arguably inferior to the cultural flowering already booming in the East, and the Islamic advances up until the Mongolian invasion is, again, far more productive than Europe during the same time period.

I'd give you a cookie. :D

Although I will say that saying Rome is arguably inferior might be a bit too much - I see it more as Rome basically being an imperial equal to Persia, China, and perhaps India (when it was unified). That's one part that European history doesn't teach - that Rome was just one of many uber-blobs blobbing over people during late antiquity. I mean, Persia whooped Rome's butt quite a number of times, and the two had quite a lovehate-hate relationship.
 
There are plenty of non-European civs as well. Considering the fact that Europe recently ran basically the entire world, and probably 90% of this forum and perhaps a similar demographic of Civ's entire playerbase is of Indo-European heritage, it's natural that Europe would be "overrepresented".

Had the Sioux, Pawnee, Iroquois, Cherokee, Pueblo, etc conquered the world and colonized Europe, it would have been the other way around. However, that's not what happened in reality, so tough.

Why should the last one deserve to be a native American group? Comparing the Sioux with, say, Israel (I know Israel isn't in, but assuming that the alphabet theory means nothing), isn't it apparent that Israel is many, many times more influential of a civilization? They are really a remarkable civilization given their size. Religiously the majority of the world pays homage to a few ancient Hebrews. And if supporting European civs is racist, can I accuse anyone who doesn't support Israel over a native American civilization of anti-Semitism?

I can accept token "civilizations" from certain geographical regions for variety's sake but let's keep them token, and save the slots for actual civilizations that actually had major influence during their zenith. Which are almost all in Europe, the Middle East, and east Asia.

And Spain 1600 versus China 1600? That's not even a contest. China has always been an insular empire who exercised more power abroad than she perhaps cared to, but relatively tiny Spain controlled almost two whole continents. Yeah, China developed a lot of what the Spaniards were using to run that empire. But it was the Spaniard who put it to use. In the alternate universe where all of Latin America speaks Chinese and Zheng He discovered the new world we can talk about how 1600's China was superior to 1600's Spain in exercise of power. But that's not reality. Spain was exercising many degrees more of heft on the international arena than China was. To say nothing of the heft exercised per person. Spain was second to none in that era. And of course now that China is rising again, we should note that China is putting to use a whole host of Western innovations to further their latest dynastic incarnation. Great civilizations always steal techs from each other.

I don't have blinders on with European civilizations. The Arabs were definitely superior to anything Europe had going, at their heyday. Persia was always the match of Rome in antiquity and has always been one of man's great civilizations. India and China accounted for a huge portion of world GDP while Europe was in its Dark Ages. But when the pendulum of history swung, it was the Europeans that ended up running the world.

Venice is to me a really exciting civ with a fascinating history. Persia has been my perennial favorite through the Civ games but Venice will have a lot of my attention with this expansion. It'd be interesting to see statistics for what civs get played the most once the expansion comes out. I'd bet Venice is near or at the top of the list.
 
Rome is influential in European history because it is our history. Rome will ever be infinitely more impactful to us than Han China will, despite the fact that they were more or less equals on a global scale, because we are heirs to the Romans, not Han China.

When we discuss the cyclical nature of our history, we make comparisons to Rome, not Han China, because we are the heirs of Rome, not Han China. Chinese should make comparisons instead to Han China, because that is their history, not Rome.

If you are not of European stock then feel free to worship your own regionally dominant civilization in antiquity.
 
And Spain 1600 versus China 1600? That's not even a contest. China has always been an insular empire who exercised more power abroad than she perhaps cared to, but relatively tiny Spain controlled almost two whole continents. Yeah, China developed a lot of what the Spaniards were using to run that empire. But it was the Spaniard who put it to use. In the alternate universe where all of Latin America speaks Chinese and Zheng He discovered the new world we can talk about how 1600's China was superior to 1600's Spain in exercise of power. But that's not reality. Spain was exercising many degrees more of heft on the international arena than China was. To say nothing of the heft exercised per person. Spain was second to none in that era. And of course now that China is rising again, we should note that China is putting to use a whole host of Western innovations to further their latest dynastic incarnation. Great civilizations always steal techs from each other.

The fact that the Spanish silver galleons were shipping silver for the sole purpose of trading with China, and that the Portuguese sugar plantations again were trading for silver in Europe for the sole purpose of trading with China, says more about the real power of China over Spain.

Territorial control means little in the face of what really runs the world, which was trade routes and trade goods. The reason why Spain and Europe went west while China decided that the New World wasn't worth its time is simply because China lacked for little but silver, something it can get easily from the Europeans that wanted the more expensive Chinese manufacturers. There was a reverse in silver flow eventually. However, this reverse didn't really pick up until the 1830s-1840s.

In other words, China was the center of the world economy and trade easily for several centuries while European hegemony was very recent.

Therefore, Spain was very much second to China in the era. All Spain had that China wanted was silver, while Spain wanted pretty much anything China was manufacturing.

On a positive note, if Venice comes into the game I will probably be jumping between Venice, Indonesia, and Portugal a lot.
 
There are plenty of non-European civs as well. Considering the fact that Europe recently ran basically the entire world, and probably 90% of this forum and perhaps a similar demographic of Civ's entire playerbase is of Indo-European heritage, it's natural that Europe would be "overrepresented".

Why?

Had the Sioux, Pawnee, Iroquois, Cherokee, Pueblo, etc conquered the world and colonized Europe, it would have been the other way around. However, that's not what happened in reality, so tough.

I don't remember CiV being a historical simulator.

Why should the last one deserve to be a native American group?

Why not?

Comparing the Sioux with, say, Israel (I know Israel isn't in, but assuming that the alphabet theory means nothing), isn't it apparent that Israel is many, many times more influential of a civilization?

Arbitrary standards don't mean much, as everybody has their own criteria for what should qualify as a civ. This is just your own bias showing through.

And if supporting European civs is racist, can I accuse anyone who doesn't support Israel over a native American civilization of anti-Semitism?

No.

I can accept token "civilizations" from certain geographical regions for variety's sake but let's keep them token, and save the slots for actual civilizations that actually had major influence during their zenith. Which are almost all in Europe, the Middle East, and east Asia.

You consider Native Americans "tokens"? Isn't that explicit racism right there? Also, there were dozens of influential Native American nations; you apparently just haven't bothered to learn about them. But, again, your interpretation of "influential" is just your own bias regarding who you want in.
 
(snip)
On a positive note, if Venice comes into the game I will probably be jumping between Venice, Indonesia, and Portugal a lot.

And here's the prize for most astute observation in this thread. BNW is going to drastically revamp the game to favor economics and tourism/culture. It is my belief that civs that play to that theme will be well represented in the game. Sure, there will be bones thrown to the warhawks out there, but I think this is as good a logic as any to make me expect to see Venice in the game.
 
Rome is influential in European history because it is our history. Rome will ever be infinitely more impactful to us than Han China will, despite the fact that they were more or less equals on a global scale, because we are heirs to the Romans, not Han China.

When we discuss the cyclical nature of our history, we make comparisons to Rome, not Han China, because we are the heirs of Rome, not Han China. Chinese should make comparisons instead to Han China, because that is their history, not Rome.

If you are not of European stock then feel free to worship your own regionally dominant civilization in antiquity.

I mostly agreed with your post before this one, that anti-Eurocentrism can become a bit exaggerated. Dominant civs of a certain era can be determined through so many factors (domination, culture, innovation, and economy being just a few), no one can rightfully say which one was the true superpower.

The above quote, though, is exactly what Eurocentrism is. There's no reason to reward Rome just because I can trace my ancestors to some peasants in Iberia. You're also using the royal 'we', but this forum is populated by people of all regions, some which Romans had not even known to exist. It can be argued that Rome was more important than Han China, but not through some argument claiming hat we are all of 'European stock.' Argue it based off what inventions, policies, and great works the Romans gave us.
 
If all Spain did was buy Chinese products and all China did was take Spanish gold in exchange, Spain would become poor very, very quickly.

The extraction of gold/silver and raw material is also an economic activity, one the Spaniards did very well. And Spanish power increased dramatically relative to Chinese power while it was managing this, before decay started to set in. Plenty of Spanish authors discuss the long term impact of the fortune and power Spain made in extraction of primary resources - the fact that sloth was widespread and the Spanish heart eventually shied away from the virtues that won it it's wealth in the first place. This is the cyclical nature of history.

In the long run resource extraction it is a primary activity not a secondary one like manufacturing where the real profit lies, but if civilizations built on a warrior ethos were not impactful in history, Spain would hardly be the only civilization left out. The Arabs and Turks were peoples who made their mark in the same way the Spaniards did. The Arabs were fanatical, incredibly courageous, and as intrepid as the Spaniards in their zenith but for the same reasons as with Spain they've more often than not been second to the Persians.

China in its history has almost always been greater than Spain. Though frequently martial/economic/cultural output per person in Spain has vastly outweighed that of the Chinese, to the point where Spain was punching far above its weight and near that of China.

Idvhl,
Choose whatever objective measure you want, be it religious influence, economic or military power. Some people are just more influential than others. So sorry history doesn't coincide with your religious views.

Colmar,
If you are of European heritage, far more than genetics (though true there as well), the society you live in is shaped 100 times more by Rome than by Han China. Therefore I'd better pay more attention to Rome than to Han China. It's my history. I'd advocate the Chinese pay a lot more attention to Han China. European societies should absolutely be Eurocentric (but not ignorant of the outside world) in the context you use it, as Chinese society should be Sinocentric.

And the royal "we" is the realistic "we". I know there are people of non-Indo European heritage here, but since anti-European focus is a trait most vocally held by people of European heritage themselves, I figured it a safe bet that the poster is of the same stock as myself. If not he should assume himself exempted from the "we". If I'm reading a Chinese-dominated forum and they talk of "we" I'm not going to assume that includes myself.
 
Choose whatever objective measure you want, be it religious influence, economic or military power.

How about we don't use any subjective measure, including the ones you list?

Some people are just more influential than others. So sorry history doesn't coincide with your religious views.

Interestingly, I have no religious views. Strange comment from you there, especially after I had already said CiV is not a historical simulator.
 
Idvhl,

How many people are practicing Christians, Muslims, or Jews?

How many people are practicing Hindus or Buddhists?

How many people are practicing worshipers of Sioux deities?

You can pick another one though. Percent of world GDP output at their zenith? Percent of world population at their zenith? Output of literature and historical records? You go ahead and pick.

You absolutely do have religious views. Man is incapable of existing without worshiping something. Part of our natures. Whether you want to call your weird-looking idols your religion or not (since being 'religious' isn't the cool kids' thing nowadays), is all up to you.
 
Top Bottom