Good civ for flexible start? (Tall or Wide)

[Big J Money]

Have been playing MP games on Quick lately, and I've come to the realization on how horrible Quick pace is for early scouting.

And of course intel about terrain is the best way to know if it's smart or stupid to go Wide (I feel like most civs are safe to go Tall).

Anyhoo, I'm wondering if you guys have any suggestions on a civ that's good at starting out with the assumption of going Tall, but can switch to going wider if it turns out there's a lot of nearby land to grab.

Thanks!

 

[Catan_Settler]

Maya, Korea, Arabia. I suppose Rome or China could be in there too. As you've noticed, basically anyone can do tall-- but those civs have UBs or UAs that suit wide.

 

[Justice1337]

I really like Egypt for wide-tall, and for multiplayer in general.

They can open Tradition (Aristocracy first) or Liberty. If they have room to expand, the Burial Tomb-Religious Center combo lets you cover the whole map without building Colosseums, your faith will be outrageous, and you will even be able to build the Grand Temple for more pressure. Meanwhile if you are kept to one city, it will be the steamroll juggernaut of Wonder pushing.

Of course, there is Babylon and Korea which basically do it all on MP, but outside of that kind of cheese, definitely Egypt.

 

[Ninakoru]

I would say Ethopia is an easy and all round good civ. You can either go tall or wide and you get benefits.

 

[Big J Money]

What about in Vanilla (minus Babylon or other DLC)? I have G & K but when playing MP a lot of times it's vanilla games.

So far, looks like China might be a good bet.

 

[Justice1337]

China gets no specific benefit for playing Tall.

Of course, it is one of the top Civs in the game and loses nothing in Multiplayer, but it just wants to go a bit wider. My plan for Tall would probably be Philo into Machinery beeline, CKN rush.

I still think Egypt is good, even better in Vanilla. Legalism gives you Burial Tombs if you've built Monuments, and that is great for the old Piety tree. They can wonder push like no one else in Cultural Tall, with the flexibility to make the Happiness if the opportunity to go wide is there.

 

[Big J Money]

How are Egypt's war chariots at taking cities? I seem to remember not liking them as a UU but I can't remember why. Maybe it was the short window of usefulness (which would be even worse in a Quick game I think).

 

[Galgus]

America can actually be good for a start- it was my first civ.

They don't really gear you for a specific strategy, but they help with the basics.

Perhaps not the strongest, but their UA comes in handy in some subtle ways.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

siam for the Wats (can be free from tradition policy if you delay taking it) can be good for wide. open tradition, then go full Liberty, then the free culture buildings. you can time however it would benefit you, most likely best to time it with entrance to education. since you are going for NC at some point you'll mostly have those libraries anyway. not sure what CS settings people play in MP though, so their UA might not be as strong.

 

[Big J Money]

How is Siam effective in going wide?

Not talking about puppets of course, but actually going wide?
Let's say 10-15 settled cities.

It seems getting Wats into them would be difficult.

No doubt the food per turn from maritime CS could help a semi wide civ get larger and focus more on production.

But even if I could, I don't imagine the 21-36 extra cpt from 10-15 Wats would offset the growth penalty for policies, right?

 

[Sabrina]

Try Austria. You can go really tall by founding just one or 2 cities and acquiring a couple of convenient CS (without the loss of population and buildings from wars and without the need of courthouses) or you can go wide making more and more money for diplomatic marriages and stacking your UB with the gardens, making more GP you can actually manage without being ashamed.

 

[Justice1337]

How are Egypt's war chariots at taking cities? I seem to remember not liking them as a UU but I can't remember why. Maybe it was the short window of usefulness (which would be even worse in a Quick game I think).

War Chariots are ok, but really, an extra movement on a unit that already loses all MP when it enters Rough Terrain is really bad design. There are just some UU's like the Zero, etc, that don't serve a lot of function. Still, Egypt and Japan are good anyway. It's just that no one ever picked them for the UU.

Egypt still has the earliest buildable UB with a Happiness bonus - up against the Satrap's Court and the Celdih Hall which both come online in Medieval.

 

[Unresolved]

Still, Egypt and Japan are good anyway. It's just that no one ever picked them for the UU.

I'm not sure anybody chooses Japan for any competitive reason other than to fulfill achievements .

 

[Justice1337]

I'm not sure anybody chooses Japan for any competitive reason other than to fulfill achievements .

I don't know... they are an ok MP civ. Lack of any raw output bonus like Beakers, Gold, Hammers puts them low on the list of SP civs, but slingshotting raw outputs to keep up with unfair AI isn't necessary in MP. And for what Japan brings to the table, Bushido is undervalued in SP only because of how combat plays out. The player hardly loses units, so what units do when they are close to dying matters a lot less. But with how MP battles work out, it matters that their Longsword/Musket eats a full combat worth of damage to kill your Samurai, particularly when you're taking Honor policies, building Barracks, and consequently hitting really hard in single combats otherwise.

Not up to the Mongols in MP military civs, but definitely better than Huns, Greece and most others.

 

[Unresolved]

Ah, I thought you were talking about SP only. I guess I should read topics more carefully next time .

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

How is Siam effective in going wide?

Not talking about puppets of course, but actually going wide?
Let's say 10-15 settled cities.

It seems getting Wats into them would be difficult.

No doubt the food per turn from maritime CS could help a semi wide civ get larger and focus more on production.

But even if I could, I don't imagine the 21-36 extra cpt from 10-15 Wats would offset the growth penalty for policies, right?

compared to 4-city tall nothing can really offset the policy cost if you are going to do 10+ cities, well, short of filling all yer cities with Opera Houses. and if you are going wide you already resign yourself to not getting as many policies compared to tall. not sure what VC you are going for either but i assumed CV was off the table anyway. at standard speed it isnt hard getting uni/wat going in later cities but quick is different. on quick i was only imagining 8-10 cities, half of which with free wats.

if anything, i'd assume the opposite--any civ can go tall with full tradition so pick one that is designed to go wide effectively just for the option. id try a start with France if you can only pick from vanilla. if GnK was included it would include several more civs like others have mentioned but restricted to only vanilla makes this difficult for me to say any one of them is better than the other going wide in a quick game.

 

[ense7en]

Have been playing MP games on Quick lately, and I've come to the realization on how horrible Quick pace is for early scouting.

And of course intel about terrain is the best way to know if it's smart or stupid to go Wide (I feel like most civs are safe to go Tall).

Anyhoo, I'm wondering if you guys have any suggestions on a civ that's good at starting out with the assumption of going Tall, but can switch to going wider if it turns out there's a lot of nearby land to grab.

Thanks!

Open with double scouts?
I ALWAYS start MP games with scout, and if my scout+warrior reveal a lot of land to explore, i consider doing a second scout before the monument (and maybe even skip the monument if going Tradition).
Getting to the ruins before others, and knowing the map layout before others is EXTREMELY important in MP.

France is a solid option.
Maya are really nice for wide.

The thing to be careful with in MP is that going wide can leave you vulnerable in more positions early on usually, and this can be fatal.
Obviously if your scouting (which you NEED to do) reveals a lot of land to settle, then go Liberty and get those good spots locked down.

If not, Tradition can work well.

MP rewards being able to strategize as needed.

I personally find that a good player will do well regardless of civ, though i will fully admit that for MP, some civs ARE better and will have advantages.

 

[Big J Money]

Okay, everyone I know got the $5 gold upgrade this weekend, so G&K is definitely in

I'm going to try either Maya or Arabia for my next MP game. I'm going to experiment with a 3 scout start unless I'm on a large island.

 

[pilot00]

I cant really understand why would anyone delay tradition to the point of teching up to unis? I mean you have lost 1/3rd of the games turns on growth and therefore/science/gold output to save a sack of hammers?

Or am I missing something critical here?

 

[Unresolved]

I cant really understand why would anyone delay tradition to the point of teching up to unis? I mean you have lost 1/3rd of the games turns on growth and therefore/science/gold output to save a sack of hammers?

Or am I missing something critical here?

It's not really a third of the game. You're delaying the finisher by maybe 20-30 turns. You do this because the earlier you get into Rationalism, the earlier your bpt will get the bonuses.