[Idea] Realistic City Siege

[JosEPh_II]

Walls Are already very important buildings. Nimek's proposal completely ignores the other facets/aspects that walls provide, such as Esp defense and Crime reduction (just to name 2).

The AI like many players build up their walls not only for city defense but also to gain the next level of Crime reduction and if iirc Nimek has removed Crime from his modded version of C2C. (Correct me if I'm wrong Nimek). So if his modded version does Not have to deal with Crime, then yes he doesn't need to build walls till they become necessary for immediate defense from impending invasions. Main C2C play does not have this luxury to ignore wall building till the last minute. Walls and their continued upgrades are Now an integral part of Crime fighting and Crime balance and Must be considered as much as Defense of the city.

Thank you Hydro for reverting wall cost back as they are balanced in this additional light.

JosEPh

 

[DRJ]

I think the -2 crime is not that essential, if I don't have to build walls, like at the front cities, I usually don't build them because of the maintenance until I have to to get the high walls + castle buildings like gatehouse etc.

My proposal in this thread to be able to adjust the level of maintenance you put into structures that evolve has not had that much popularity

But think of it this way:
telling your guys to maintain something costs amount X
and telling them to improve it costs a higher amount Y (one time pay/hammer or turnwise).
I think once people understand that, for example, the half of their city would be vulnerable because of outdated city defenses, if they don't adjust the level of maintenance,
a better understanding of the role of the city in the game can be achieved - more "identification", more gameplay (at least to me).

 

[Nimek]

Correct me if I'm wrong Nimek

I'am correcting you. I don't plan to remove any stats from walls line only add another to make their value more defensive above everything else.

All the best

 

[JosEPh_II]

I'am correcting you. I don't plan to remove any stats from walls line only add another to make their value more defensive above everything else.

All the best

To be perfectly clear here, you are using Stock C2C and Not a modded version? Correct?

@DRJ,
The wall line does not give just a -2 Crime, they scale. Not building them because of Maintenance cost is an associated subject and is subjective for each player, whether human or AI to use or not use.

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

Thank you Hydro for reverting wall cost back as they are balanced in this additional light.

You're welcome. For once we were in agreement on something.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Put a "mark" on the wall and date it! Before you forget!

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

@Nimek:
We'll have to hold off on first strike as I've got a number of shaping development plans taking place there to restructure the way first strikes are derived and what they mean (see the What are First Strikes Anyhow? discussion thread.)

But I've added Dynamic Defense (iLocalDynamicDefense) to the building tag list.

The # there will be the % amount that any Surround and Destroy benefits on units attacking the city are reduced by.

Thus if my city has a total LocalDynamicDefense of 50 then any S&D bonuses being generated for the units attacking my city are reduced by 50%.

We'll have to determine what defenses gain this and how much they gain so we can implement the tag throughout the defensive buildings.


We also have the <UnitCombatRepelModifiers> tag which would make for a rather powerful defensive measure. Programmed as such:

	<UnitCombatRepelModifiers>
		<UnitCombatRepelModifier>
			<UnitCombatRepel>UNITCOMBAT_ARCHER</UnitCombatRepel>
			<iUnitCombatRepelModifier>25</iUnitCombatRepelModifier>
		</UnitCombatRepelModifier>
	</UnitCombatRepelModifiers>

This means that being in the city will add 25 to the Repel values on your team's archers. Thus, they may have a chance of repelling the attacking enemy (causing them to back out of the combat as soon as all first strikes are completed) equal to 25% + any Repel ability possessed by the Repelling unit.

If we implement this, though, we'll have to start working Unyielding onto our units and promos and I don't think we're quite ready for that yet (Unyielding on an attacker subtracts from any defender's repel values.)

But it's not too early to map out the Repel bonuses that defensive buildings should soon be able to provide


At the moment, the Local Dynamic Defense tag should be sufficient for the current progress on defensive building developments. I'll have you determine the initially proposed figures on that and post here for a brief review before we go forward with implementation.

We're about to be in a freeze here so this review can take place during the freeze and we can insert the changes into the next version as soon as the freeze is complete (unless we decide we'll be waiting on the freeze date due to some of the really urgent and complex bugs we have taking place at the moment.)

 

[Nimek]

Thanks Thunder. Great work. Waiting for more.

With Repel implementation we will wait to the next version as you said but
S&D protection Can be added imidietly.

I will ask hydro to do so.

Thanks again I cant wait for repel. Great idea.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The repel has been there for a while waiting for further implementation. I was also waiting for some further AI work to be done on the tag and well... that's now complete.

I'm curious, however, what buildings do you feel should be given the Local Dynamic Defense and to what degree?

 

[Nimek]

@TB
Look at the first page of this thread. Only we could exclude city and castle gatehouse from sad protection.
Also moat could give +50% for sad

 

[Thunderbrd]

So you suggest:

Palisades = 5% protection
Earth Walls = 20% protection
Walls = 40% protection
High Walls = 50% protection
plus Moat = 50% protection
City Gate = 60% protection
Castle = 65% protection
Castle Gate = 70% protection
Star Fort = 75% protection
Barricades = 80% protection
Barbed Wire Fence = 85% protection
Cement Barrier = 90% protection
Arcology Shielding = 95% protection
Advanced Shielding = 99% protection

I agree on the moat adding to the Dynamic Defense but I must point out that no amount of DD above 100 will be any further helpful. The moat can be built in addition to the other buildings here (and would also be very good at enabling Repel as it forces invaders to give up when they look at crossing the fetid sewage, risking being eaten by that which lies within, swimming under a hail of arrows etc... in fact would be the best single historical case for Repel to be given to Archers and Throwing units that I can think of... Portculus structures in castle gates would do a good job of it too.)

Anyhow, my point is, effective as it may be for dissuading an attack from all sides, it can't be allowed to be too effective in that as it should not be able to push the total DD in the city over 100 AND will have another use. I don't have a problem with that era taking DD up TO 100 though, as the Medieval era was perhaps the most difficult era in all history to capture a city.

So this is my suggestion, assuming all effective defensive buildings of a wallish nature are listed here:
Palisades = 15 DD
Earth Walls = 20 DD
Walls = 25 DD
High Walls = 30 DD
Moat = 30 DD
Castle = 40 DD (at this point, if I'm not mistaken, we can have High Walls, a Moat, and a Castle for 100%)
Star Fort = 50 DD
Barricades = 60 DD
Barbed Wire Fence = 70 DD
Cement Barrier = 80 DD
Arcology Shielding = 90 DD
Advanced Shielding = 95 DD (assuming this is an upgrade that replaces the Arcology Shielding...)

 

[Nimek]

@TB
I think that instead of changing stats we can tweak moat to not require the castle. Ancient cities with walls like Babylon have moat without castle.

Moat could require walls or high walls or castle.
After consideration I think your stats are ok but moat should be also tweaked.

 

[DRJ]

@TB
I think that instead of changing stats we can tweak moat to not require the castle. Ancient cities with walls like Babylon have moat without castle.

Moat could require walls or high walls or castle.
After consideration I think your stats are ok but moat should be also tweaked.

I think the moat should also require access to water
(via coast/river/swamp/town well).

It doesn't have to be fresh water only!

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Dry moats have been used in defenses since the stone age.

 

[Nimek]

Water moat should be available at canal systems.

Dry moat is cool idea for new building.

Dry moat
10% defense
10% defense against sad

 

[Thunderbrd]

@TB
I think that instead of changing stats we can tweak moat to not require the castle. Ancient cities with walls like Babylon have moat without castle.

Moat could require walls or high walls or castle.
After consideration I think your stats are ok but moat should be also tweaked.

Changing the prerequisite would not change the fact that they would be able to exist in a city in parallel. If High Walls are replaced by a castle, which I'm not sure would be a good idea, then we'd have more room there. And I suppose going past 100 DD isn't the worst thing in the world. Just makes anything past 100 a waste...

I think the moat should also require access to water
(via coast/river/swamp/town well).

It doesn't have to be fresh water only!

I've always thought this too... coast, river, swamp, town well, OR via an irrigation link. Not sure if it's possible to build such an OR string but maybe via the Expression system.

Water moat should be available at canal systems.

Dry moat is cool idea for new building.

Dry moat
10% defense
10% defense against sad

Agreed... good idea. It would also offer some Repel for the Archers and Throwers as its a bit of an intimidating trap spot to cross.

We could also have a Sand Trap Moat... Or in some special cases, a Quicksand Moat...

 

[DRJ]

What about a spiked Moat as well? "Special delivery" with poison tips? ;-)

The temporary fortifications of Alesia show them, for example (see spoiler below -especially the first pic)

I think it would be cool to do something like Alesia in C2C as well, building fortifications all around a city... Perhaps a mechanic of the Miner/Sapper/etc would enable it? Or, like the Romans did, they trained their army constantly in digging, working wood and so on, while the Siege of Alesia only one of the members of a cohort was working as a lookout while the others worked to get the fortifications ready in time.

Spoiler :

 

[Hydromancerx]

So you suggest:
I agree on the moat adding to the Dynamic Defense but I must point out that no amount of DD above 100 will be any further helpful. The moat can be built in addition to the other buildings here (and would also be very good at enabling Repel as it forces invaders to give up when they look at crossing the fetid sewage, risking being eaten by that which lies within, swimming under a hail of arrows etc... in fact would be the best single historical case for Repel to be given to Archers and Throwing units that I can think of... Portculus structures in castle gates would do a good job of it too.)

Anyhow, my point is, effective as it may be for dissuading an attack from all sides, it can't be allowed to be too effective in that as it should not be able to push the total DD in the city over 100 AND will have another use. I don't have a problem with that era taking DD up TO 100 though, as the Medieval era was perhaps the most difficult era in all history to capture a city.

So this is my suggestion, assuming all effective defensive buildings of a wallish nature are listed here:
Palisades = 15 DD
Earth Walls = 20 DD
Walls = 25 DD
High Walls = 30 DD
Moat = 30 DD
Castle = 40 DD (at this point, if I'm not mistaken, we can have High Walls, a Moat, and a Castle for 100%)
Star Fort = 50 DD
Barricades = 60 DD
Barbed Wire Fence = 70 DD
Cement Barrier = 80 DD
Arcology Shielding = 90 DD
Advanced Shielding = 95 DD (assuming this is an upgrade that replaces the Arcology Shielding...)

Rather than walls perhaps we should consider using the Traps. They are under used due to their negative stats and if they had repell then they might be worth building.

Pit Traps (Mining) = 10 DD
Mechanical Traps (Machinery) = 30 DD
Landmines (Mine Warfare) = 50 DD
Booby Traps (Guerrilla Warfare) = 70 DD
Robotic Traps (Military Robotics) = 90 DD

Note that the Moat currently gives Zone of Control.

 

[Thunderbrd]

hmm... I wonder... my understanding of Zone of Control is that it negates the ability of attackers to attack from any but one plot (which goes unmarked which is terribly frustrating!) I wonder if this means that when the S&D processing runs its check on combat strengths on adjacent potential attackers that they aren't evaluated anyhow due to not being 'potential attackers' since they are standing in plots from which they may not attack? In a sense, this might be negating all S&D bonuses brought against the city by default. That would be something to investigate.

As for Traps and Dynamic Defense...
I could see traps adding to a general repel factor in the city (not by unit combat so I'd have to do up a new tag for that) but not so much for Dynamic Defense. There's a difference here:

DD(Dynamic Defense): The % of reduction of an attacker's compiled Surround & Destroy bonuses.

Repel: The % chance that the attacker is forced to immediately withdraw upon the first round of combat, in which the defender deals damage, after all first strike rounds.

Repel does sound like a good idea for traps as an approaching unit may find their approach needs serious re-evaluation due to a failed attempt to cross a trapped region.

Since any flat iLocalRepelModifier (which I'd be happy to add to the dll right away) would be a modifier to the defender's repel values which can also get fairly strong, I'd keep it to a level of moderation, something like:

Pit Traps (Mining) = 10 Local Repel
Mechanical Traps (Machinery) = 20 Local Repel
Landmines (Mine Warfare) = 30 Local Repel
Booby Traps (Guerrilla Warfare) = 40 Local Repel
Robotic Traps (Military Robotics) = 50 Local Repel

We'll have to immediately start reviewing our units and promos for applying the Unyielding ability (fearlessness in the face of danger) if we start using Repel. And we'll have to add some promo lines for adding Unyielding, and perhaps some Repel ability (which is an ability intended for Archers, Guns, Defensive Siege, Spears and Chemical weapons (including natural ones such as the Skunk)).

I'd also figured we'd want to have wall and castle addons such as Battlements, Murder Holes, Arrow Slits and Portcullises add to the Repel abilities of Archers, Throwing, (and to a lesser extent Gun units as well). I realize we have some of these already. Gates and Gatehouses could add to the Repel values of Melee defenders.

The thought carries along though too... if the unit is NOT repelled by a trap building, should the trap building then add a free chance to deal some damage from the trap itself to the unit once the repel attempt fails or is overcome? That would be a whole new factor for the combat mechanism and although makes sense, would tweak the odds in a way that would be hard to account for.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Zone of Control stops you moving from one plot in the zone of control of a player into another plot that is also in a zone of control for that player.

This means that if you are next to an occupied enemy fort you can't move to another plot next to that fort. It also mans that you can't move into any other plot which is in your enemies zone of control. this is useful when you have two occupied forts with two land plots between them. Enemies cant get past the forts without attacking and conquering one of them.