MassRiflemen
Dr. Draftingstein
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2022
- Messages
- 108
Hi all. I am currently designing a supermarathon mod (techs take twelve times longer than in marathon).
However, due to the extremely slow tech rate, the game would be world of axes and then world of catapults for roughly 3000 turns each.
More generally, I have done my best to address this problem, such that it could be implemented into the standard game (regular game speed or regular marathon) with either the stock AI or the improved "better ai mod."
Clearly, our design has to be simple enough for both humans and AIs to understand. Thus, making it so that the stock AI can understand it as well ensures that the concept of the game is not radically changed, and again... AI friendly.
Mechanics such as "limit of X units per tile" do not fit the style of the game, and the AI's can't handle it (even in CIV5 which was designed around it) and often causes crashes to boot.
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Needless to say, there is no point in continuing to work on my mod if I cannot achieve a healthy redesign
.However (other than fine balancing/minor number tweaks) I do believe that I have reached a solution. You can watch the video link below for a demonstration and detailed explanation.
I would like some community input so I can rectify any unforeseen exploits in my game tests or suggestions that will improve upon the concepts below.
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General Summary:
Current Game
Axeman 5 strength, counters spearman.
Spearman 4 strength, counter chariot
Chariot 4 strengh, counters axeman.
The solution is simple. Only make axeman because it has the highest base strength with only 3-4 spearmen escorting.
Bloodlust Mod; SO SIMPLE THE UNMODDED AI GETS IT
Axeman 5 strength, counters melee. No free promos or first strikes or bonuses asides from +50% vs melee. Limited to 12 axemen.
75 hammers. Does not require bronze, but gets a 33% production bonus with bronze/iron. Counters Shielded Warrior while being cheaper in unit maintaince.
Spearman 4 strength. Immune to all collateral/first strike. Countered by axeman, soft countered by shielded warrior.
Limited to 18 spearmen
75 hammers. Does not require bronze, but gets a 50% production bonus with bronze.
Chariot 4 strength, counters melee and siege (except spearman with negative combat bonus to spears). Has baseline 60% withdrawal chance. Deals collateral damage to one extra unit, collateral can kill.
Limited to 6 chariots
100 hammers, functions as mobile artillery that can kill.
Does not require horses, but gets a 50% production bonus with horse.
Catapult, 5 strength, cannot reduce any unit's health below 80% of it's base value. Thus,100 catapults will never reduce a single axemen below 4 strength.
UNLIMITED IN NUMBER
Does not require stone, but gets a 25% production bonus with stone. 50 hammers.
Tier 2 archer (obsidian arrow tips): 4 strength archer. 25% withdrawal chance (increased from 15% to 25% after balance testing, archery units now promote faster). Does 25% extra to spears and axemen. 1 First strike + 1 chance at first strike.
UNLIMITED IN NUMBER. 25 hammers. Archery units will always attack other archery units first in the field. The goal is to win archer battles so your archers promote faster.
Requires Walls before being built. Does not require stone, marble or gems, but gets a 25% production bonus with stone and marble and 50% with gems. Spammable 4 strength unit that can withdraw. Has no hard counter. High maintenance cost in large numbers.
Tier 2 Warrior (Shielded Warrior). 5 strength, 10% withdrawal chance. 25% hills attack. One chance at first strike. UNLIMITED IN NUMBER. 20 hammers. Prefers to attack Axemen. 25%+ City Attack. High maintenance cost in large numbers.
Prefering to attack its counter (axeman) ensures that a stack of 30 shield warriors kill achieve kills on axeman. High maintenance cost in large numbers.
Walls = Flat 25% Defense, cannot be bombarded down.
SIEGE TOWER: . 20 Strength, Negative 200% City Defense, Positive 1000% City Attack. Immune to collateral. 1 First Strike. Medic 1,2 and 3. Has Blitz, Sentry and March. Two moves (to utilize blitz). Guaranteed to bleed out unprepared turtling opponent. Uses Trebuchet AI behavior (and AI uses it the same way a human would).
LIMITED TO TWO SIEGE TOWERS. CANNOT CAPTURE CITIES (no units, other than UU's, that have 2+ movement can capture cities in my mod).
1000 hammers, enough production modifiers to get it down to 500 hammers (all food resources, all metals)
-200% Attack vs Siege Tower. Only costs 1 gold to maintain and forces a turtler to fight in the field. He can build siege towers too (even though siege towers lose to other sieges), whip units and prechop with road advantage.
Raider: 5 strength unit, guaranteed kill on unescorted catapults. 3 moves, ignores terrain cost, invisible, hidden nationality. Can only be seen by chariots and scouts. Can be used by both sides to stop reinforcing catapults that are unescorted and/or pillage deep within enemy territory when the Siege Tower initiates war on the front. Limit of 8 raiders (dog soldier is the UU). Cannot be seen by other raiders. Only chariots and scouts.
Single player versions allows AIs (but not the player) to see them with tier 2 archers and shielded warriors so the ai has an increased chance of detecting them.
Both scouts and raiders are invisible and always hostile and hide nationality (privateers of the land), allowing players to kill them without declaring war or knowing who they belong it. Only scouts can see both. Limit of 4 scouts.
Raiders cannot capture cities (like helicopters). Dog soldier UU can see scouts and other raiders, and has 50% hills defense. Dogs on hills will force enemy chariots to return form the front lines.
I forgot to put the raider in the youtube video, but I'm sure you can grasp it and imagine it in action. Raider uses explore behavior + pillage behavior +reserve behavior, somewhat mickmicking how an actual human would use it.
However, due to the extremely slow tech rate, the game would be world of axes and then world of catapults for roughly 3000 turns each.
More generally, I have done my best to address this problem, such that it could be implemented into the standard game (regular game speed or regular marathon) with either the stock AI or the improved "better ai mod."
Clearly, our design has to be simple enough for both humans and AIs to understand. Thus, making it so that the stock AI can understand it as well ensures that the concept of the game is not radically changed, and again... AI friendly.
Mechanics such as "limit of X units per tile" do not fit the style of the game, and the AI's can't handle it (even in CIV5 which was designed around it) and often causes crashes to boot.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Needless to say, there is no point in continuing to work on my mod if I cannot achieve a healthy redesign
.However (other than fine balancing/minor number tweaks) I do believe that I have reached a solution. You can watch the video link below for a demonstration and detailed explanation.
I would like some community input so I can rectify any unforeseen exploits in my game tests or suggestions that will improve upon the concepts below.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
General Summary:
Current Game
Axeman 5 strength, counters spearman.
Spearman 4 strength, counter chariot
Chariot 4 strengh, counters axeman.
The solution is simple. Only make axeman because it has the highest base strength with only 3-4 spearmen escorting.
Bloodlust Mod; SO SIMPLE THE UNMODDED AI GETS IT
Axeman 5 strength, counters melee. No free promos or first strikes or bonuses asides from +50% vs melee. Limited to 12 axemen.
75 hammers. Does not require bronze, but gets a 33% production bonus with bronze/iron. Counters Shielded Warrior while being cheaper in unit maintaince.
Spearman 4 strength. Immune to all collateral/first strike. Countered by axeman, soft countered by shielded warrior.
Limited to 18 spearmen
75 hammers. Does not require bronze, but gets a 50% production bonus with bronze.
Chariot 4 strength, counters melee and siege (except spearman with negative combat bonus to spears). Has baseline 60% withdrawal chance. Deals collateral damage to one extra unit, collateral can kill.
Limited to 6 chariots
100 hammers, functions as mobile artillery that can kill.
Does not require horses, but gets a 50% production bonus with horse.
Catapult, 5 strength, cannot reduce any unit's health below 80% of it's base value. Thus,100 catapults will never reduce a single axemen below 4 strength.
UNLIMITED IN NUMBER
Does not require stone, but gets a 25% production bonus with stone. 50 hammers.
Tier 2 archer (obsidian arrow tips): 4 strength archer. 25% withdrawal chance (increased from 15% to 25% after balance testing, archery units now promote faster). Does 25% extra to spears and axemen. 1 First strike + 1 chance at first strike.
UNLIMITED IN NUMBER. 25 hammers. Archery units will always attack other archery units first in the field. The goal is to win archer battles so your archers promote faster.
Requires Walls before being built. Does not require stone, marble or gems, but gets a 25% production bonus with stone and marble and 50% with gems. Spammable 4 strength unit that can withdraw. Has no hard counter. High maintenance cost in large numbers.
Tier 2 Warrior (Shielded Warrior). 5 strength, 10% withdrawal chance. 25% hills attack. One chance at first strike. UNLIMITED IN NUMBER. 20 hammers. Prefers to attack Axemen. 25%+ City Attack. High maintenance cost in large numbers.
Prefering to attack its counter (axeman) ensures that a stack of 30 shield warriors kill achieve kills on axeman. High maintenance cost in large numbers.
Walls = Flat 25% Defense, cannot be bombarded down.
SIEGE TOWER: . 20 Strength, Negative 200% City Defense, Positive 1000% City Attack. Immune to collateral. 1 First Strike. Medic 1,2 and 3. Has Blitz, Sentry and March. Two moves (to utilize blitz). Guaranteed to bleed out unprepared turtling opponent. Uses Trebuchet AI behavior (and AI uses it the same way a human would).
LIMITED TO TWO SIEGE TOWERS. CANNOT CAPTURE CITIES (no units, other than UU's, that have 2+ movement can capture cities in my mod).
1000 hammers, enough production modifiers to get it down to 500 hammers (all food resources, all metals)
-200% Attack vs Siege Tower. Only costs 1 gold to maintain and forces a turtler to fight in the field. He can build siege towers too (even though siege towers lose to other sieges), whip units and prechop with road advantage.
Raider: 5 strength unit, guaranteed kill on unescorted catapults. 3 moves, ignores terrain cost, invisible, hidden nationality. Can only be seen by chariots and scouts. Can be used by both sides to stop reinforcing catapults that are unescorted and/or pillage deep within enemy territory when the Siege Tower initiates war on the front. Limit of 8 raiders (dog soldier is the UU). Cannot be seen by other raiders. Only chariots and scouts.
Single player versions allows AIs (but not the player) to see them with tier 2 archers and shielded warriors so the ai has an increased chance of detecting them.
Both scouts and raiders are invisible and always hostile and hide nationality (privateers of the land), allowing players to kill them without declaring war or knowing who they belong it. Only scouts can see both. Limit of 4 scouts.
Raiders cannot capture cities (like helicopters). Dog soldier UU can see scouts and other raiders, and has 50% hills defense. Dogs on hills will force enemy chariots to return form the front lines.
I forgot to put the raider in the youtube video, but I'm sure you can grasp it and imagine it in action. Raider uses explore behavior + pillage behavior +reserve behavior, somewhat mickmicking how an actual human would use it.
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