Exploration Policy Discussion

[Arachnofiend]

"Theodora the Explorer" should have been an achievement, really.

 

[Arbustro]

"Theodora the Explorer" should have been an achievement, really.

Absolutely they still have time to add it.

 

[Winston]

The exploration tree is just begging to be modded - I like some of the ideas that have been suggested in this thread and I hope some modders are quick to make changes. There definitely needs to be more reward for exploration and building new cities overseas.

They should mod the great admiral too - maybe he could give xp when he's spent to fix ships? Maybe he could set up a naval college in cities? Both of these are similar to the civ 4 generals and they worked pretty well.

edit: hmmm maybe great admirals should have a combat value? They do have their own ship after all.

I think merchant navy should also give a discount when building cargo ships and a defence value against attack (same for wagon train).

 

[Roxlimn]

Maritime Empire: All water tiles yield +1 hammers. Ocean tiles yield 1 food.

This is a better form of God of the Sea, which I would think that a naval looking Civ should also look to snag, if possible.

Basically, it transforms every coast tile into River Plains Farms, and makes Ocean tiles amazing - you'll want to reach as far out into deep sea as possible with this, which changes the city placement game quite a bit.

Granted, this would make those 1 island tiles remarkably good, but it's not like there's tons of those in the game. I like the idea of a maritime Empire looking to create powerful deep sea outposts.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Would become too overpowered, if I got about 4 or 3 naval resources then my empire really takes off hammer-wise. if I can remember it can built almost anything in under 10 turns (including Wonders on Quick).

 

[Crafty Bison]

I think it looks very promising, especially when on a water map or going for a culture victory:

Opener: can build louvre. boats get +1 sight and movement
I always liked this one more than most, but I think it'll be even more important now defending sea trade routes will be important. The louvre looks like the biggest must have wonder for culture games, so if nothing else, the opener may see a lot of use.

Maritime Infrastructure: +3 Production in all coastal Cities.
Map dependant, but can be pretty darn strong in the right circumstances

Naval Tradition: +1 Happiness for each Harbor, Seaport, or Lighthouse.
Looks pretty strong on the right map.

Navigation School: A Great Admiral appears. +2 Movement for all Great Admirals. Great Admirals are earned 25% faster. Requires Naval Tradition.
Looks rubbish, but hey, if you get to it early the ocean exploration might be worth at least a little. If, however, you're Sweden (will they make a viable culture civ in BNW? If not they'll still not be bad at Domination) then this could be a really big policy.

Merchant Navy: +1 Gold for each Harbor, Seaport or Lighthouse. Requires Maritime Infrastructure and Naval Tradition.
Looks not that great, but will be decent on a wide water map.

Treasure Fleets: +4 Gold from all your sea trade routes. Requires Naval Tradition.
I think this will be strong (though it's hard to tell atm), and provides a little synergy with the opener.

Finisher: reveals hella antiquity sites. Can buy great admirals with faith
This also looks pretty must have-ey for a culture game.

It'll be interesting to see whether it is the wide Carthages or the tall culture civs that make best use of this tree, but there are decent bonuses in there for both. I especially look forward to trying it out with polynesia and perhaps indonesia or rome, which could potentially do both.

 

[Big J Money]

I agree the exploration tree breaks immersion, because the gameplay benefits don't reflect the theme (and the theme is unclear because it's incoherently presented anyway)

 

[tomtom5858]

Are we certain they're cheaper? I've not seen that confirmed as yet.

Aussie.

They're way cheaper. This is confirmed when in a video, with 4 cities, and adopting the 11th policy, it's 500 culture, as opposed to 800 culture in G&K (IIRC).

 

[VainApocalypse]

I'm glad commerce was split into two. Previously, being an economical country without a strong naval focus didn't make sense; now it's plausible.

The policies in exploration are all deeply valuable and relevant to anyone building a lot of coastal cities or trying to explore the map. If your cities aren't 100% coastal, and if you're not playing the culture game, it probably isn't going to be a useful tree in your book.

 

[seancolorado]

Hmmmm, it's hard for me to write this tree off so quickly. Although I can see concerns for a few of the policies

Opener; +1 movement and +1 sight to Naval Units. Unlocks building the Louvre.

Naval warfare is incredibly dull in comparison to land battles. That's why I don't find myself getting too excited about this perk. Yeah, it's great and definitely makes the game easier, but I'll live fine and I'm pretty sure everyone here will live fine without it. Really truly a "comfort bonus." And it's not like America's UA or Polynesia's where the extra sight comes in handy early on. It's more like England's UA where it's great but more of a necklace around your neck rather than a pair of shoes to support your feet

Naval Tradition; +1 happiness for each Lighthouse, Harbor and Seaport.

Yeah not really stoked about this either. Especially when you look at the new civs with coastal motivations: Portugal, Indonesia, Venice. Those are three civs that won't have any happiness problems anyway. Not a terrible bonus though. Pretty decent in fact. Just not stoked

 

[VainApocalypse]

Hmmmm, it's hard for me to write this tree off so quickly. Although I can see concerns for a few of the policies

Opener; +1 movement and +1 sight to Naval Units. Unlocks building the Louvre.

Naval warfare is incredibly dull in comparison to land battles. That's why I don't find myself getting too excited about this perk. Yeah, it's great and definitely makes the game easier, but I'll live fine and I'm pretty sure everyone here will live fine without it. Really truly a "comfort bonus." And it's not like America's UA or Polynesia's where the extra sight comes in handy early on. It's more like England's UA where it's great but more of a necklace around your neck rather than a pair of shoes to support your feet

Naval Tradition; +1 happiness for each Lighthouse, Harbor and Seaport.

Yeah not really stoked about this either. Especially when you look at the new civs with coastal motivations: Portugal, Indonesia, Venice. Those are three civs that won't have any happiness problems anyway. Not a terrible bonus though. Pretty decent in fact. Just not stoked

I'm pretty stoked about both of these.

Regardless of how fun you think naval combat is, it's still essential, especially when you have to defend trade routes. The movement and sight bonus will let me defend them easier. It'll also help me explore the map quicker in the mid game. This gives me a better chance of getting an initial lead in the world congress. In late game, it makes scouting and raiding coastlines that much easier. A movement and sight bonus means that I'll never have to engage in a fight that I don't want to, and will be able to run down anyone who doesn't want to fight.

As for Naval Tradition, extra happiness is ALWAYS appreciated. It means that I can trade most, if not all of my luxuries away or at the very least can have more golden ages. This builds upon the strengths of the Netherlands and Portugal very well.

 

[kaspergm]

Sure, those bonuses are decent, but on the bottom line, the extra movement and sight of naval units was a policy before where you ALSO got a free Great Admiral and extra movement for those. So basically, that is one policy that is now split into two - ok, you get the faster GAd spawning now also, but let's be honest, after the first one you own, the GAd is easily the most useless GP in the game, even more useless than the GM.

The happiness bonus is useful, certainly, but as a policy, this is just BORING. And then we have another policy that gives +1 on naval buildings, which is both useless and boring! And you have a third policy that gives +4 for each naval trade route which might be a bit more useful in terms of earning you gold but is still quite boring in terms of what it adds to the game imo. So yeah, I think this tree is really lacklustre and unimaginative compared to what one could have hoped they would do.

 

[Martinus]

I agree with kaspergm. Unless Great Admirals are also buffed (perhaps giving them an ability to build some sort of naval fortress that can be built within 2-3 tiles from your own city and works the same way a GG fortress does, only against naval enemies would work).

 

[VainApocalypse]

Sure, those bonuses are decent, but on the bottom line, the extra movement and sight of naval units was a policy before where you ALSO got a free Great Admiral and extra movement for those. So basically, that is one policy that is now split into two - ok, you get the faster GAd spawning now also, but let's be honest, after the first one you own, the GAd is easily the most useless GP in the game, even more useless than the GM.

The happiness bonus is useful, certainly, but as a policy, this is just BORING. And then we have another policy that gives +1 on naval buildings, which is both useless and boring! And you have a third policy that gives +4 for each naval trade route which might be a bit more useful in terms of earning you gold but is still quite boring in terms of what it adds to the game imo. So yeah, I think this tree is really lacklustre and unimaginative compared to what one could have hoped they would do.

I don't think these things are boring at all. There's scarcely anything that I have more fun doing in civ than making money.

I also can't imagine GAd being anymore useless than generals. They're both important for any military engagement -- and if you think great merchants are useless, we clearly aren't playing the same game.

 

[VainApocalypse]

I agree with kaspergm. Unless Great Admirals are also buffed (perhaps giving them an ability to build some sort of naval fortress that can be built within 2-3 tiles from your own city and works the same way a GG fortress does, only against naval enemies would work).

The ability to heal 7 units to full health can turn the tide of a naval invasion, whereas naval fortresses would only be appealing to someone preoccupied with defense.

 

[Ikael]

Noone is arguing that these bonuses aren't handy (they are), but rather than they are bland, boring and derivative. There are already a bajillion wonders / policies / tennets that gives happiness bonuses to buildings and that buffs certain types of units. Flavour and originality should also be factors to consider when designing these type of things, me thinks. This SP tree seems ripe for modding.

 

[Seek]

Noone is arguing that these bonuses aren't handy (they are), but rather than they are bland, boring and derivative. There are already a bajillion wonders / policies / tennets that gives happiness bonuses to buildings and that buffs certain types of units. Flavour and originality should also be factors to consider when designing these type of things, me thinks. This SP tree seems ripe for modding.

All the happiness on buildings has been moved to tenets *except this one* - it's going to be one of the only ways to easily boost happiness before the industrial era assuming a large amount of coastal cities. It's also a first-tier SP and therefore easy to cherry pick.

Agree the tree could have used some more originality overall though.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

The ability to heal 7 units to full health can turn the tide of a naval invasion, whereas naval fortresses would only be appealing to someone preoccupied with defense.

The effect is Very situational. If it also gave the units free exp or a free promotion, that would be fun.

 

[bouncymischa]

I agree the exploration tree breaks immersion, because the gameplay benefits don't reflect the theme (and the theme is unclear because it's incoherently presented anyway)

I'm not sure why -- for me it's always evoked the "Age of Exploration", of which naval power was a significant factor. I suppose I could go over the specific benefits and see how well they tie into that, but overall I don't have any issues with "exploration" being largely nautical. Sure, there's always been land-based exploration, but I can't recall any significant periods of land-based exploration off-hand.

 

[JSMCAG]

I agree the exploration tree breaks immersion, because the gameplay benefits don't reflect the theme (and the theme is unclear because it's incoherently presented anyway)

I'm not sure why -- for me it's always evoked the "Age of Exploration", of which naval power was a significant factor. I suppose I could go over the specific benefits and see how well they tie into that, but overall I don't have any issues with "exploration" being largely nautical. Sure, there's always been land-based exploration, but I can't recall any significant periods of land-based exploration off-hand.

This is pretty much the vibe I'm getting - and it's not wrong to have a tree based of the Age of Exploration. The only problem I have is that the naval image is going for Commerce instead, while Exploration has a Scramble of Africa, land exploration themed background image (or something like that, my history is rusty), and nearly none of the policies reflect that.

I would far prefer if Exploration got the current Commerce background image, and it was Commerce that got a new one - which makes more sense, since it was Commerce who got a whole revamp with the new International Trade Routes, and everything that did not fit this theme (i.e. everything naval) was moved to Exploration.
Also, it would make "the Navigator" a better title for the tree, and it was actually used! Can someone enlighten me if there was someone who were called "the Explorer"?