Unfortunately, this kind of makes the Archaeology-related openers and finishers seem a bit out of place. Your reward for building a might navy and merchant empire is... your Archaeologists can find hidden artifacts?
Well, it makes some sense. Ability to find anything is related to exploration. And to actually dig these artifacts out you need to be able to reach different corners of the world.
Also those who finish exploration earlier will got the artifacts. This fits the idea of exploration
I definitely think this tree is a big fail. I was expecting a lot from this tree, because I loved the left side of the Commerce tree, but rarely found myself finishing it because of a not-so-good right side (apart from the happiness, which was extreme) and a lousy finisher. I had hoped to find something like the left side and then some cool new policies relating to Archeology. Instead, they have essentially split several of the old Commerce policies into two to cover the entire tree, and although the finisher is cool, there's just way too much concerning trade routes and way too little concerning exploration in the actual tree.
I know people say we need to give it a shot to see how it plays out, but given how little love Commerce had in the old system - apart from the huge amount of happiness you got - there's no reason to believe that Exploration will not be much worse, given how it is essentially half of the old Commerce made into a full tree with less Happiness potential to boot. The policy that gives +1 Gold from Lighthouse/Harbor/Seaport is a likely candidate to being the worst policy in the entire game.
Ideas for cool things they could have added:
- Access to Explorer unit, or make that a general unit, and give all recon units Scouting I and Scouting II from start when having Exploration
- Production bonus to recon units and/or Arcaeologists
- Free Harbor in city when establishing a city on a new continent or production bonuses to naval buildings
- Bonuses to Arcaeologist units, like faster dig times, better success rate (chance of finding multiple artifacts, or better artifacts, even from general sights)
- Free Arcaeologist(s) once Arcaeology is researched
- Increased yield and theming bonuses from artifacts
Archeology is limited. There's a limited set of Archeology sites and it's possible what everything will be dig out without you. For such optional system designating multiple SP is not worth, IMHO.
Huh. The opener lets you build the Louvre? I mean, I get the whole archaeology/exploration getting you artifacts to put in a museum concept but the rest of the tree gives you no archaeology benefits at all. I just hope that the Louvre isn't so important for a cultural victory that you'd have to dip into this this tree and get a naval bonus you might not want just to get it.
If anything, I think it will be the opposite - since social policies are now cheaper, then anyone pursuing cultural victory will be perfectly able to afford the opener just to get the Louvre - which seems like the must-have wonder for a cultural victory.
If anything, I think it will be the opposite - since social policies are now cheaper, then anyone pursuing cultural victory will be perfectly able to afford the opener just to get the Louvre - which seems like the must-have wonder for a cultural victory.
I think it's kewl. It might be bit of a misnomer since it's mostly about setting up naval dominance except for the finisher. People did do exploring by land too. I think the cognomen will be "The Adventurous".
Well I remember reading that deveolpers will have a balance patch in autumn for BNW, like there was after G&K was released. So it will enhance BNW even more and balance SP trees and such.
Now that people have mentioned it, it would be nice if the Exploration tree had at least a little for land exploration in it. After all, the image itself shows a land explorer, not a seafaring explorer.
One thing I thought of that might be really nice would be something related to Natural Wonders? Like Spain's UA.
And maybe a bonus to your empire based on number of tiles uncovered, civs and CSs met, or something like that?
So, is the Finisher useless if you get to it too late and all hidden sites have already been cleared? I guess there's quite a bit to mod here for rebalance, but then, we should wait for the expansion to be published
Exploration unlocks at Medieval, by which point your Scouts are dog meat and hopefully you've already explored your own continent. Land-based exploring perks wouldn't make a lot of sense.
And yeah, I'd love a later Explorer unit (and a reason to use it). Unfortunately we're not getting either.
So, is the Finisher useless if you get to it too late and all hidden sites have already been cleared? I guess there's quite a bit to mod here for rebalance, but then, we should wait for the expansion to be published
Unless you have a burning desire to purchase Great Admirals with Faith, then the finisher would be useless.
On the other hand, the finisher is a 'free' SP. You'd have to leave out Merchant Navy or Treasure Fleets which are both pretty decent picks. It doesn't make it any less useless though.
Exploration unlocks at Medieval, by which point your Scouts are dog meat and hopefully you've already explored your own continent. Land-based exploring perks wouldn't make a lot of sense.
And yeah, I'd love a later Explorer unit (and a reason to use it). Unfortunately we're not getting either.
On that note, it would be nice to get an explorer unit who is essentially a surveyor.
Same movement as a scout, but in the squares he enters and all the squares around him he could reveal resources you haven't yet revealed in the tech tree (mabe at the press of a button and an action for balances sake?)
That way the exploration tree could give a lot of your tiles yield boosts before anyone else, more money from the ability to trade it (if anyone is stupid enough to buy it...) and you still wouldn't be able to use it until you unlock appropriate things in the tech tree. (Also helps you choose what to research, since you won't have to gamble hoping that you have certain resources)
It remains to be seen if the Louvre and the bonus antiquity sites are good enough to justify opening and finishing the tree respectively on maps that aren't particularly watery.
Opener: +1 extra sight and movement to naval units => Ok, this makes sense, and is a nice, versatile bonus
Maritime Infrastructure: +3 Production in all Coastal Cities => Unoriginal, albeit necessary for game balance purpouses (aka coastatal cities not sucking)
Merchant Navy: +1 gold for each Lighthouse, Harbor and Seaport. Requires Maritime Infrastructure. => Weak, bland, and completely unrelated to the exploration theme
Naval Tradition: +1 happiness for each Lighthouse, Harbor and Seaport. => Yet another SP revolving around buildings giving extra happiness, that has nothing to do with exploration and that would make little impact in gameplay. Pass.
Treasure Fleets: +4 gold from all your Sea Trade Routes. Requires Merchant Navy. => This could be potentially big, specially if it also affects the foreign trade routes that you recieve from other civilizations
Navigation School: Free Great Admiral. +2 Movement for all Great Admirals. Earn Great Admirals 25% faster. Requires Naval Tradition. => Who has ever felt the need of having great admirals in Civ 5? Unless Almirals have been boosted with incredible abilities in this expansion, this is the worst SP in the game
Finisher: You can view the 10 hidden treasures => A great finisher, I love this idea but this is the only purely exploration related mechanic in the whole damn SP tree
============
Having said this, I would propose the following modifications to the tree:
Opener: +1 extra sight and movement to naval units => Fine as it is
Maritime Infrastructure: +1 production on each coast tile surrounding your coastatal cities => A diffeerent take on this bonus, it would force you to rethink your city placement while mantaining the original goal of giving a boost to coastatal cities, it also would encourage you to settle in islands
Merchant Navy: +1 gold for each improved sea resource and atoll tile. Requires Maritime Infrastructure. => Another way to implement this mechanic, it adds yet another layer of depth to coastatal city placement while keeping the original idea about rewarding wide coastatal empires a la Carthage
Cartographic tradition (previously Naval Tradition): +1 happiness generated by the discovery of natural wonders and CS => Look, ma! A happiness bonus for wide empires that actually rewards exploration!
Treasure Fleets: +4 gold from all your Sea Trade Routes. Requires Merchant Navy. => Fine as it is, however, I would need to try the trade route mechanics first in order to fine tune it if necessary
Antropologic institute (previously navigation school): +2 to the tourism output of archeological artifacts, and +3 to the culture output of landmarks. Requires cartographic tradition => A SP with the late game in mind and a firm candidate to be the last of the tree SP picked up, the idea is to increase the rewards for late game exploration as well as giving balance to the decision between historical site VS artifact (now it is obviously titled to the former rather than the first)
Finisher: You can view the 10 hidden treasures => Best policy of the tree, left unchanged
Actually, I think that the Exploration tree is pretty irrelevant for the cultural victory. Sure, the Louvre can help, but it's the Aesthetics where the essential policies are for the CV. Even the exploration finisher, with it's hidden antiquity sites, isn't really directly aimed at the CV: especially that you get to choose if you want to recover an artifact or build a culture-generating landmark. I think that the Exploration tree is better for a commercial/naval civ aimed at domination (or maybe diplomacy), where the finisher gives you extra defense against the culturally strong rivals.
The finisher seems very out of place. Archeology is expressly a culture and tourism related mechanic, so what's it doing as the culmination to a bunch of coastal expansion? In fact, why is the tree even called Exploration? Only two policies could been seen as being tangentially related to exploring the map. It should be called Seafaring or something.
Navigation School: Free Great Admiral. +2 Movement for all Great Admirals. Earn Great Admirals 25% faster. Requires Naval Tradition. => Who has ever felt the need of having great admirals in Civ 5? Unless Almirals have been boosted with incredible abilities in this expansion, this is the worst SP in the game
You have many good ideas in your post, but I think you are a bit off on this one. While this policy should have something else than just the GAd things (like it used to have in Commerce), don't underestimate the importance of a free GAd - the GAd can cross ocean tiles before Navigation is discovered, and this makes a huge importance when playing on continenets maps. Establishing early contact to other continents will give you a great boost to trading plus the new world congress thing will not make this less relevant! The increased movement is also pretty nifty (essentially you get a movement 6 oceangoing unit before others can cross oceans - quite powerful!) - but yes, once you have that first GAd, you don't really need any more, so the rest of the ability is kind of rubbish. That's why the early position in the current Commerce tree and coupling with the naval movement is great and find as it is.
The finisher seems very out of place. Archeology is expressly a culture and tourism related mechanic, so what's it doing as the culmination to a bunch of coastal expansion? In fact, why is the tree even called Exploration? Only two policies could been seen as being tangentially related to exploring the map. It should be called Seafaring or something.
I would turn the argument around and say: The finisher is about the only thing that makes the tree title "Exploration" relevant, so rather than putting less Archeology in here, I think we need more stuff relating to that and exploration in general.
In fact, why is the tree even called Exploration? Only two policies could been seen as being tangentially related to exploring the map. It should be called Seafaring or something.
Or Colonialism. Almost everything in this tree is an incentive to establish settlements, over seas, far way from your capital. It's Colonialism. Some very odd choices for this SPT.
Opener: +1 extra sight and movement to naval units => Ok, this makes sense, and is a nice, versatile bonus
Maritime Infrastructure: +3 Production in all Coastal Cities => Unoriginal, albeit necessary for game balance purpouses (aka coastatal cities not sucking)
Merchant Navy: +1 gold for each Lighthouse, Harbor and Seaport. Requires Maritime Infrastructure. => Weak, bland, and completely unrelated to the exploration theme
Naval Tradition: +1 happiness for each Lighthouse, Harbor and Seaport. => Yet another SP revolving around buildings giving extra happiness, that has nothing to do with exploration and that would make little impact in gameplay. Pass.
Treasure Fleets: +4 gold from all your Sea Trade Routes. Requires Merchant Navy. => This could be potentially big, specially if it also affects the foreign trade routes that you recieve from other civilizations
Navigation School: Free Great Admiral. +2 Movement for all Great Admirals. Earn Great Admirals 25% faster. Requires Naval Tradition. => Who has ever felt the need of having great admirals in Civ 5? Unless Almirals have been boosted with incredible abilities in this expansion, this is the worst SP in the game
Finisher: You can view the 10 hidden treasures => A great finisher, I love this idea but this is the only purely exploration related mechanic in the whole damn SP tree
============
Having said this, I would propose the following modifications to the tree:
Opener: +1 extra sight and movement to naval units => Fine as it is
Maritime Infrastructure: +1 production on each coast tile surrounding your coastatal cities => A diffeerent take on this bonus, it would force you to rethink your city placement while mantaining the original goal of giving a boost to coastatal cities, it also would encourage you to settle in islands
Merchant Navy: +1 gold for each improved sea resource and atoll tile. Requires Maritime Infrastructure. => Another way to implement this mechanic, it adds yet another layer of depth to coastatal city placement while keeping the original idea about rewarding wide coastatal empires a la Carthage
Cartographic tradition (previously Naval Tradition): +1 happiness generated by the discovery of natural wonders and CS => Look, ma! A happiness bonus for wide empires that actually rewards exploration!
Treasure Fleets: +4 gold from all your Sea Trade Routes. Requires Merchant Navy. => Fine as it is, however, I would need to try the trade route mechanics first in order to fine tune it if necessary
Antropologic institute (previously navigation school): +2 to the tourism output of archeological artifacts, and +3 to the culture output of landmarks. Requires cartographic tradition => A SP with the late game in mind and a firm candidate to be the last of the tree SP picked up, the idea is to increase the rewards for late game exploration as well as giving balance to the decision between historical site VS artifact (now it is obviously titled to the former rather than the first)
Finisher: You can view the 10 hidden treasures => Best policy of the tree, left unchanged
Well, I'll take the opportunity to put up my own ideas. I don't really know what purpose this may serve, but I'll make you read it anyway
Just very rough sketches. I tried to sum up what I had in mind with some of what they developed in the exploration tree.
I would prefer it divided into two separate policy branches: one naval (favoring your naval capabilities), one exploration focused (favoring expansion).
Opener: Keep it as is. Just give the bonus to Scouts too, for fairness sake.
Branch 1: Maritime Tradition
+2 gold for each Lighthouse and Harbor. +50% production when building lighthouses, harbors and seaports. Naval Age
Free Great Admiral. +2 Movement for all Great Admirals. Starts a golden age.
Branch 2: Age of Discovery
Double happiness from discovered natural wonders. Discovering a new natural wonder triggers "We love the king day" in your capital. Brave New World
Cities settled in another landmass net you +3 production and +3 gold. +2 movement to embarked settlers.
Last policy (need both branches) Colonization
Trade routes with city-states generate +5 gold and +1 influence. Other players cannot estabilish trade routes with your allied city-states.
Finisher: You can view the 10 hidden treasures.
The point is rewarding extracontinental settling, with emphasis on "colonizing" city states (settling near them and establishing an kinda 'forced alliance' via trade route). The ideas are very rough, but they sum up some of what I expected to be the exploration tree (for historical reasons, I was completely sure the last policy on exploration would be called 'colonization'...).
Or Colonialism. Almost everything in this tree is an incentive to establish settlements, over seas, far way from your capital. It's Colonialism. Some very odd choices for this SPT.
As I see it, historically, the great exploration age was what prenounced colonization. I think it's a great concept to mish-mash into the exploration tree (the much loved finisher, for example, is exactly that - artifact stealing from other nations, one aspect of colonialism).
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