Building the Great Library or not?

[Peter Sagan]

I always want to achieve a science victory and try to outscience my opponents by building the GL as soon as possible. But now with trade routes it makes other civs benefit from my science and it feels a bit useless to set up trade routes with other civs. Should I stop building the GL and focus on other things or should I not make a big deal out of this and just keep this strategy?

 

[VainoValkea]

The thing is, GL isn't necessarily worth it science-wise as you could get a regular library producing beakers sooner, without the risk of someone finishing it before you do. However, it's a great culture/science hybrid wonder if you manage to get it because of those two writing slots. You don't have to instantly build amphitheatres to accommodate your first writings, just stow them in the GL and get the easy theming bonus by swapping a bit.

 

[Peter Sagan]

Hmm I never build my amphitheatre that quick but still early enough to accomodate my first writings.. So maybe I'm struggling on that point hehe. But if I can't fix that it isn't really worth building it, I guess.

 

[Adjuvant]

Great library is a trap like pocket kings in a texas hold-em deal. It looks great and makes you bet everything on it, but so much beats it, and the actual chance you can do anything with it is low, so you're hurting yourself more than helping.

Only build great library for 2 reasons: if you can get it done VERY quickly, as in egypt with marble quickly, or if it will springboard your military, like for rome or iroquois for iron working.

Otherwise you're actually slowing yourself down, spending the production, when a normal library + granary early nets the "same thing".

"But I get a free tech and tourism slots!"

The free tech isn't worth sacrificing earlier infrastructure, and by the time stacked tourism bonuses even matter (modern age and beyond) you'd still have done more, faster with earlier infrastructure.

 

[Zodan_Mir]

Well, first of all, the Great Library is not the be all/end all of the science 'game' in Civ V. There are other ways to boost your science output. In fact, you can argue that map topology, relgious beliefs, and unhampered city growth/happiness are every bit--if not more--important than getting the Great Library.

Secondly, worrying about the 'leakage' of science back to other civs is kind of a moot point. Civs engaging in trade with other civs will get science backwash from trade routes, whether it's from you are not. Science progression in BNW is balanced around this fact. In any event, you don't have to trade with other civs if you've got city-states to trade with--i.e., if you really want to keep all that early game science to yourself.

 

[joncnunn]

I'm not seeing anything indicating what difficulty level OP is playing on.

Which is exactly what determines the risk. On a high enough level, attempting the Great Library and failing by one turn is unrecoverable without use of the time machine.
(The problem is that fail gold for missing the Great Library by a single hammer is less than the cost to cash buy the regular library despite costing a whole lot more.)

On Prince, its really easy.

On King, you have decent shot if the city has above average (and you focus on it)

On Emperor, needs an even better start.

Immortal in which the AI starts with a free worker: Even with a really good hammer site, risk of failure is very high.

The very next build upon successful completion of the GL should be the National College which is really where the science is. (This should result in NC completing between turns 45 & 55)
When not going for GL, 2 city NC is a very common strategy. (This should result in NC completing between turns 70 & 79)

But it's really building Universities etc. along with filling our science slots and building Academies (at least until Scientific Theory) that's the key to science.

 

[MadHaxxor]

lol no, the Great Library sucks. It's the noobiest wonder in the game and everyone always goes for it making it much more difficult. In the early game work on growth, expansion, gold, and production. Once you get those under control THEN start working on science. I honestly don't even build libraries until Medeival era and I'm insanely good at this game. You're going to have such a low pop in the beginning of the game that the measly 1 science per 2 citizens isn't even going to matter. Instead work on growth directly and you can get more science from more population, as opposed to science from the library. Just work on building your empire and start worrying about science in the later game...

One note... This strategy probably won't work on deity, I normally don't play deity because it isn't fun and the only way you can win is through exploitation. I use this online, and it works all the time

 

[MadHaxxor]

@joncnunn Why do you spend 20 minutes on your turns?

 

[tomtom5858]

lol no, the Great Library sucks. It's the noobiest wonder in the game and everyone always goes for it making it much more difficult.

A National College 20 turns earlier is bad?

In the early game work on growth, expansion, gold, and production. Once you get those under control THEN start working on science. I honestly don't even build libraries until Medeival era and I'm insanely good at this game.

What level do you play on? Because you should have your NC up by, say, T120 on Emperor. I agree with your first point there, though.

You're going to have such a low pop in the beginning of the game that the measly 1 science per 2 citizens isn't even going to matter. Instead work on growth directly and you can get more science from more population, as opposed to science from the library. Just work on building your empire and start worrying about science in the later game...

In an age where techs cost ~120 beakers, every little bit helps.

One note... This strategy probably won't work on deity, I normally don't play deity because it isn't fun and the only way you can win is through exploitation. I use this online, and it works all the time

Of course it won't work on Deity, the GL is gone T35 I suspect it works online because you play against noobs

Overall, the GL is a fantastic wonder, but it's so hard to get and has an effect that you could get so easily through other means (build the "Library and a Settler" wonder), that it's just not worth the effort.

 

[joncnunn]

@joncnunn Why do you spend 20 minutes on your turns?

Civ III & Civ IV
Where we had a massive number of cities to control and make sure they weren't about to fall into disorder, etc.

But I am noticing spending quite a bit of time on some of the BNW turns now. (Ensuring I pick the best overall trade route when it's free; on turns in which I get a new work of ___, ensuring I get max possible theming bonsuses, etc.)

 

[joncnunn]

What level do you play on? Because you should have your NC up by, say, T120 on Emperor. I agree with your first point there, though.

I would say even turn 120 is rather late; better to shoot for turn 70; and there's a major problem if you can't finish it before turn 100.

 

[KevinJK]

Are you Korea? Absolutely build it.
Are you going for a culture victory? Probably build it for the tourism.

Otherwise it can be skipped without losing too much.

 

[Ryoga]

I would say even turn 120 is rather late; better to shoot for turn 70; and there's a major problem if you can't finish it before turn 100.

I don't understand how you can get a NC so fast. Are you building it before your second settlement?

 

[RedFuneral]

Are you Korea? Absolutely build it.
Are you going for a culture victory? Probably build it for the tourism.

Otherwise it can be skipped without losing too much.

I disagree, I'm playing a game as Korea right now and after thinking about it for a few minutes I went for the Hanging Gardens instead. Korea get +2 science per specialist, so my tactic was to make sure I don't have any specialist slots going to waste(plus it netted me a free garden, +25% bonus toward all great people) Maybe not as important if you settle on a river and can get the garden normally, but I settled next to a mountain in a massive patch of jungle.

The city is real low production but it'll be a science powerhouse later in the game. Plus I'm located on a small sea with a few choice spots for production powerhouse cities. If things go according to plan I'll be able to have a city dedicated to production(shipping in food from the cap) and the production city sending hammers back. Though I suppose that all depends on how the trade route system is setup(do you send a set value of production or is it dependent or a percentage of what said city produces? I know it doesn't take any away from the city producing the food/hammers. Either way, it won't hurt to have a city dedicated to producing defense units at the very least.

 

[Helmling]

I don't understand how you can get a NC so fast. Are you building it before your second settlement?

One strategy is to rush Philosophy and put one up before even expanding. You'd be amazed how quickly the techs start flying by when you do.

Against aggressive expansion from the AI, though, it might be too risky.

 

[Martinus]

Great library is a trap like pocket kings in a texas hold-em deal. It looks great and makes you bet everything on it, but so much beats it, and the actual chance you can do anything with it is low, so you're hurting yourself more than helping.

Only build great library for 2 reasons: if you can get it done VERY quickly, as in egypt with marble quickly, or if it will springboard your military, like for rome or iroquois for iron working.

Otherwise you're actually slowing yourself down, spending the production, when a normal library + granary early nets the "same thing".

"But I get a free tech and tourism slots!"

The free tech isn't worth sacrificing earlier infrastructure, and by the time stacked tourism bonuses even matter (modern age and beyond) you'd still have done more, faster with earlier infrastructure.

In general, I'd be inclined to agree, although this might be also useful for Babylon as this is the only Ancient wonder that gives Great Scientist points.

 

[Martinus]

I disagree, I'm playing a game as Korea right now and after thinking about it for a few minutes I went for the Hanging Gardens instead. Korea get +2 science per specialist, so my tactic was to make sure I don't have any specialist slots going to waste(plus it netted me a free garden, +25% bonus toward all great people) Maybe not as important if you settle on a river and can get the garden normally, but I settled next to a mountain in a massive patch of jungle.

The city is real low production but it'll be a science powerhouse later in the game. Plus I'm located on a small sea with a few choice spots for production powerhouse cities. If things go according to plan I'll be able to have a city dedicated to production(shipping in food from the cap) and the production city sending hammers back. Though I suppose that all depends on how the trade route system is setup(do you send a set value of production or is it dependent or a percentage of what said city produces? I know it doesn't take any away from the city producing the food/hammers. Either way, it won't hurt to have a city dedicated to producing defense units at the very least.

The food/hammer shipping does not take away from the city where the trade route originates and the boost is flat (but higher when done over sea).

 

[Novu]

If you are going for small and tall Great Library is a must have. It has no upkeep in a time when you are pressed for gold. You can instantly grab Drama and Poetry tech which gives access to the national epic as well as the Parthenon wonder. If you only have a couple cites you can build the national epic right away and get a decent culture boost.

 

[Gliese 581]

Of course it won't work on Deity, the GL is gone T35 I suspect it works online because you play against noobs

More like around turn 28-32 usually. At least in civ4 you could get almost any wonder even on deity if you really sacrificed everything for it and even wonder spam if you focused just on the capital with the right leader.

 

[VainoValkea]

Great Library is a gamble, with the odds not being outstandingly good either.

If you get it, you get a free library and a free tech. This can be worthwhile for many things, like Drama & Poetry for cultural quick starts or Philosophy for getting a better shot at the Oracle, for example.

However, the tech you get from GL isn't as valuable as it seems, as you're wasting time building it instead of a normal library. The great work slots are useful for getting early tourism, but early tourism in itself is not as important as getting up volume later on. Every slot and theming bonus counts, though!

Finally, as everyone knows, GL is a risk. Someone else completes it? Have fun building a regular library from scratch.