Rome 2 - Impressions

I've ongoing campaigns as Rome and Parthia, and I'd say there definitely is a challenge at the strategic layer, much more so than in Rome 1. Public order was easy to deal with when you could lower taxes for cities and recruit a garrison, but now you always have to take it into consideration when you decide which squalor producing higher level building you really/want and whether it's more advantageous to press the attack and elminate a faction quickly or keep your troops in your newly conquered teritories until they are pacified. The limit on agents and active edicts also forces you to prioritize and balance order/economy/expansion. I think the system is very sound, and the game only suffers from some technical problems and balance issues (like the ability to circumvent the agent cap through conversions).

Oh, public order has never been particularly difficult to deal with in TW games - in most the challenge has been having enough money, and needing to build up the economy early, and that's gone in R2 too.

But even if you have a few turns of negative public order due to squalor while you wait for the next city centre upgrade to complete, that's easy to sustain because you'll have enough surplus 'motivation' to avoid going into the red. Even wanting to manage public order is something of a holdover from past games: in R2 it doesn't much matter if you do or not. In Shogun you get an immediate, large hit to growth if your public order is negative, and can expect rebellion within a couple of turns. In R2 you don't get rebellions until you hit -100 public order, and you have very coarse categories such as 'troubled populace' which have minor impacts on growth and tax. You also have much larger garrisons in R2, so a slave revolt simply isn't a threat on the rare occasions it does happen (as it did in my Rome campaign), as you noted yourself in the original post. This isn't due to poor slave AI - the slaves are just never going to have an army bigger than 20 units, they'll all be basic units, and by the time you get a slave revolt you're likely to have almost as many garrison units, and those higher-tech. I'm not even sure what happens if slaves spawn near and attack a walled capital.

As for choosing between keeping order in a province with your army and moving on, as you needed to in Shogun 2, the economy in Rome 2 makes this completely unnecessary. You can afford to maintain so many more units (and there's now a unit cap of 40 units per side in tactical battles, so you never need more than two armies together in the field) that you can have standing armies doing nothing but garrisoning an area while you're in the field fighting, and the system almost seems designed to promote this - by the time you get a second province you can have 6 armies, more than you'd ever need in earlier games.

The limit to agents would be more meaningful if they didn't all have duplicate effects, albeit using different stats - I think druidesses as well as warmaidens have a public order bonus (not to mention all the ones you get from random traits and household retainers, the latter you can switch at will - a really poor part of the design to my mind), and if public order wasn't handled at province level so that one agent can pacify four settlements at once.
 
The rome/carthago family system is indeed untill now only confusing without any impact. I assume ill hav to wait for the civil war to see what effects it has.

Furthermore, untill now its quite passive, with very few open field battles and almost only sieges (although i do play on normal). The problem is that there are very few evenmatched battles. If you bring a single army to besiege, you are quite disadvantaged because of the huge garrisons, bring two and you autoresolve with 99% surviving.

Granted, im only 65 turns far, and bout to invade macedon, so hopefully it will kick off a bit more.

Thing that i dont understand is naval. I build more advanced ships rather than raiding hemolias (are whatever they are called), but the advanced ships only have 1/2 amount of men...
 
Year 200 BC and the time between turns is already getting way too long (Core i7 2600k, 16 GB of RAM...). I liked all total war games but i am not patient enough anymore to lose several minutes of my life every time i push that damn "end turn" button. I am very sorry, but i will skip this one.
 
The rome/carthago family system is indeed untill now only confusing without any impact. I assume ill hav to wait for the civil war to see what effects it has.

It's as incomprehensible with the chief system too - I have yet to work out whether I want someone to be adopted or to stop it, or what value I gain from adopting someone.

I'd thought for a while that the influence you have is a proportionate measure of combined gravitas of your characters, but the figures don't add up, and the encyclopedia suggests that it comes from winning battles and completing missions (i.e. exactly like approval in Rome 1). If that's the case, I'm still at a loss as to what gravitas actually does.

However, I'm not seeing any change as a result of either. Nor, since I can appoint anyone whatever their party to be a general, do I know why I'd want to assassinate anybody in my faction.

Civil war apparently comes if your support is too high or too low, but you can always decrease support by taking actions that "cost" senators/chiefs.

Furthermore, untill now its quite passive, with very few open field battles and almost only sieges (although i do play on normal).

This is typical for Total War games. I've been seeing rather more open battles actually in my Hard Iceni campaign, and some pretty large ones. Once you get to that point it does play a lot like the previous games, except that the game speed is still too fast and special abilities seem a surer win than tactics.

The tactical AI is however at the mercy of the strategic one, and if no one techs past their basic units (I've seen Arverni with ballistae and most people now have light cavalry, but that's it. My chariots are still all-dominating techwise) or varies their unit composition, tactical battles are both very samey and not especially challenging.

The problem is that there are very few evenmatched battles. If you bring a single army to besiege, you are quite disadvantaged because of the huge garrisons, bring two and you autoresolve with 99% surviving.

Due to the limited role played by tactics in this game, the 'relative power' bar is often a better indicator of how a battle will go in the field than in past ones, where you could routinely win a hopelessly outmatched battle with good tactics. It's by no means irrelevant, though - I played one battle where I was defending a point and set my army to hold off the main enemy attack before they got there. The enemy reinforcing army then came in from behind and I couldn't get back before they won. Replaying, I set my forces closer to the point and the result was a complete massacre:

Spoiler :



The only real tactics I employed were to send my general's cavalry out to hit the enemy slingers - while that fight was going on the main enemy army ran headlong into my defenders. Once the general had finished with the slingers, I just turned him round and hit the main enemy army in the rear - apparently causing them all to start wavering.

Granted, im only 65 turns far, and bout to invade macedon, so hopefully it will kick off a bit more.

It's unfortunate but generally the case in TW games that minor factions are a lot more passive and technology underdeveloped than major ones, so you may have better luck finding a credible opponent there.

Thing that i dont understand is naval. I build more advanced ships rather than raiding hemolias (are whatever they are called), but the advanced ships only have 1/2 amount of men...

I'm in Britain so am not teching to higher-level ships, since the English Channel is not a contested area (or hasn't been - I had a rude awakening when a large Cherschii force hit me with an amphibious landing). Perhaps the advanced ships are better at ramming, or faster, since ramming seems to be what naval warfare is all about? Transports seem to be better at boarding actions than naval ships anyway. There are other oddities with the tech tree like that - for instance Britons unlock skirmishers after slingers (who are the basic ranged unit), but those are shorter-ranged, deal about the same damage, and are no better in melee.

I had a couple of big battles with amphibious landings today and I'll admit that those are fun, but they seem to be bugged. As a unit disembarks, it can't be attacked. However, it seems the way the system does this is to have a section of the beach that can't be attacked, so even if a unit is fully disembarked it can't be attacked at that point. Given that defensive naval invasions place the victory point at exactly the first point where these units become vulnerable again, this leads to odd results - you can't draw troops away because if you do those units will attack you and/or take the victory point, but you can't attack yourself either. In my battle I was facing a landing force that had landed further along the beach as well, so I either sat there watching these immobile enemies and got rushed, or I hit the other landing party and got attacked in the flank and rear by the others, that I would otherwise have been able to deal with before the main force got there.
 
Due to the limited role played by tactics in this game, the 'relative power' bar is often a better indicator of how a battle will go in the field than in past ones, where you could routinely win a hopelessly outmatched battle with good tactics.
this is true and not true. if your units are on par with the enemy this is true however in my current game my troops are vastly superior yet when i fight a battle against full stack armies + garrisons (1k troops against 3k troops) the power bar is heavily in favor of the enemy. however in actual combat i just a-move my troops to the enemy and loose ~100 and the enemy is utterly crushed within seconds of contact. (on very hard btw)
 
this is true and not true. if your units are on par with the enemy this is true however in my current game my troops are vastly superior yet when i fight a battle against full stack armies + garrisons (1k troops against 3k troops) the power bar is heavily in favor of the enemy. however in actual combat i just a-move my troops to the enemy and loose ~100 and the enemy is utterly crushed within seconds of contact. (on very hard btw)

I had a very strange situation like that - I had a naval force, not large but against transports on double time (so with the morale penalty) and whose units had been heavily damaged in past battles. The power bar put the odds slightly in my favour (rather to my surprise since ship battles seem to be wholly a numbers game - each ship goes one-on-one, so whoever has the most ships wins). But as soon as I was in battle, with nothing else having changed, the game decided my chances to win were nonexistent (which proved to be the case). I think there are certain units it undervalues - such as transports, which are overpowered for the absolutely nothing they cost - and certain things it places a premium on (for instance as my units are all higher tech than my rivals, and chariots are the highest-tech things on the map, it heavily overvalues chariots).

TW AIs have always struggled to understand the balance of power in siege battles as well, and almost always favours the defender too much unless the attacker has overwhelming odds. Combine that with poor siege AI (as TW AIs always are), and sieges are a perfect ground for getting Heroic Victories.

End of my session today, I was on turn 67 or something, with an income of 2,700 and over 60 military units. Via declaring war on the Suebi I'd just met Rome, and it was disheartening to see that by that stage of the game even the game's strongest power (presumably) was only equal to me according to the diplo balance of power bar (which from experience in practice means weaker. I'd had the same until almost the moment of their destruction with two factions I destroyed).
 
Another problem with sieges is that the atttacker takes heavy attirition (between 5 and 10%) a turn, so you re basicly forced to bring an additional stack. Also because you can only construct one siege weapon a turn (where as in rome/medieval 2 it was based on how big your army was)
 
Another problem with sieges is that the atttacker takes heavy attirition (between 5 and 10%) a turn, so you re basicly forced to bring an additional stack. Also because you can only construct one siege weapon a turn (where as in rome/medieval 2 it was based on how big your army was)

The defender takes attrition as well, so I don't have an issue with that. You can only build one siege weapon a turn, but you get twice as many per selection as you did in Rome and M2.

Sieges are one thing I think R2 does quite well on the strategic layer; I like the fact that siege equipment is linked to the tech tree, and attacker attrition in sieges makes sense. I dislike the same thing I disliked in Shogun 2: when besieging a town, you can't use agents against it (because naturally your army wouldn't let anyone pass to poison the defender's garrison).

On another subject, the more I play the less I like the campaign map. I'd hoped the multiple settlements per province thing would have meant more settlements in the landscape overall, but instead everything has been inflated to cartoony proportions - Britain has 5 settlements, with 1 on Ireland, IIRC only as many as in Medieval II. Every settlement, tree and unit icon in the landscape is gigantic, and zooming in in areas of forest particularly reveals an extremely poorly-textured map, moreso than in Shogun 2.

I'd been wondering why I didn't like the campaign map as much as S2's, and now I think I've pinned it down.
 
One thing I really hate about sieges is that you can't attack a settlement while it's being blockaded from the sea by another faction. I'm fifty turns in with Rome and I still don't have Syracuse to complete Magna Graecia because Carthage keeps blockading it and don't want risk war with them until i've finished off Macedon (I took Lilybaeum from Sparta after they conquered it and got bogged down in Greece after their counterattack).
 
One thing I really hate about sieges is that you can't attack a settlement while it's being blockaded from the sea by another faction. I'm fifty turns in with Rome and I still don't have Syracuse to complete Magna Graecia because Carthage keeps blockading it and don't want risk war with them until i've finished off Macedon (I took Lilybaeum from Sparta after they conquered it and got bogged down in Greece after their counterattack).

It was suggested earlier in the thread that this may be a bug, and I think it's probably not deliberate - in every previous TW game you could blockade cities, and they could still be besieged and/or captured by another faction from land.
 
It looks like they reused the AI from Medieval 2 and Rome 1. Or at least the AI still has some of the same glitches and issue its had since Rome1!

I've heard some people say that what they wanted from Rome 2 was Rome 1 with better graphics.

The trouble is, that is largely what they got. The way the AI plays siege battles particularly is very reminiscent of that (although strangely, while I've heard they used basically the same tactical AI, I found Medieval II's considerably weaker than Rome's - maybe the unit selection in Rome favoured the AI more?)

Angry Joe has his review up, he loves it! He also hates it. Its a complicated relationship.

http://angryjoeshow.com/2013/09/total-war-rome-ii-angry-review/

Fun and mostly accurate - not sure why he claims the UI is better in the campaign maps; nothing could be further from the truth. Yes, it has tooltips, but half of these replace dedicated screens in the previous game, usually with the contents of multiple tooltips (such as needing to use a tooltip to identify the causes of public order/disorder, another for food and another for income from a given province, while all of that was presented - in more detail and more attractively - in a single screen in S2), and navigation is terrible - in Shogun 2 you could cycle with tab from one selected province to another, which is not present in R2.

The tactical AI is better than he gives it credit for when the AI does sensible things on the strategic layer - and the barbarian factions do create giant stacks routinely (even if with very low-tech units); at this stage I'd count the strategic AI as weaker than the tactical one. But it still plays very like Rome 1, much less like S2 (but then the S2 siege system was probably AI friendlier, since without siege weapons life was a lot easier for a defending AI).

He has a good point about objective flags in open battles - with only one flag, and no bonus beyond "win" for holding them, you lose what most games that use objective-based tactics (such as Company of Heroes, or multiplayer Shogun 2) actually use them for: to promote tactical play.

Overall, I'm left with the impression that the game was designed and tested mainly as a multiplayer custom battle platform - the campaign is so basic and poorly-optimised and the AI so badly-tested. This also fits the model SEGA took with CoH 2, and the Shogun 2 multiplayer modes. However, the review suggests that multiplayer too is very basic.

His rant about DLC is unfair, although the DLC is overpriced (same price as a full campaign DLC in S2). Sparta wasn't playable in Rome I either (although generic "Greek States" were); the factions presented are as diverse as any in TW games.

I think I'm done with R2 beyond checking back every Friday post-patch; back to Shogun 2 for my TW fix.
 
Just accepted Carthage as a Client State and realized a possible bug I don't think was mentioned here.

If someone becomes your Client State when they are still at war, don't you as the Protector State automatically declare war on your Client State's enemies? (Had to do this manually)

And when you negotiate peace with one of those enemies shouldn't the treaty also extend to your Client State? (The game did not do this when I sued for peace. They stopped fighting me but continued to fight Carthage.)
 
I think I'm done with R2 beyond checking back every Friday post-patch; back to Shogun 2 for my TW fix.

Bah, this never was my R2 anyway. Only 1567684567 more years until EB2!!!
 
In my game as Athens, Syracuse took Carthage, Carthage as a OPM somehow invaded and took Rome which they then lost to the iberian barbs Edetani. Now Rome only has two southern italian settlements, Carthage only has Napoli and Sardinia, while Edetani and Syracuse are the powers of the region... Pretty funny. At least the AI is doing something I guess. The greek peninsula is dead quiet even though I just pissed off both macedon and sparta on purpose while my entire army is halfway across the world restoring the colonies.

The Angry Joe review hits the nail on the head perfectly.
 
i also love how you don't need any siege equipment at all for fortified cities. just take one unit, walk it to the gates and burn them down with torches out of nowhere, move them back and storm the city with the rest of the army.


good job CA :lol:
 
i also love how you don't need any siege equipment at all for fortified cities. just take one unit, walk it to the gates and burn them down with torches out of nowhere, move them back and storm the city with the rest of the army.


good job CA :lol:

You could do that in Shogun 2 as well, but S2 had no siege equipment so it made more sense there. Also, in S2 you would then have to repair the castle afterwards, so you actively wanted to avoid damaging the thing if you could avoid it. In R2, there's no penalty at all on the campaign map for burning a city to the ground in tactical view, since nothing will be damaged if you choose to capture it, and in any case damaging a city wouldn't have the crippling - if brief - effects on public order it did in S2.
 
In S2 it made sense because it was mostly wooden structures + little siege equipment. there were also ramps leading up to the door which means you usually take more losses burning the gate, than in rome2.


also tried the new 1.5 beta patch:

performance on campaign map is better especially much less texture pop in, but it is still on too low fps. i want it as smooth as S2.
 
In S2 it made sense because it was mostly wooden structures + little siege equipment. there were also ramps leading up to the door which means you usually take more losses burning the gate, than in rome2.


also tried the new 1.5 beta patch:

performance on campaign map is better especially much less texture pop in, but it is still on too low fps. i want it as smooth as S2.

Beta patch ? Did it do anything about the turn times ?
I've started to read a book while playing, which turns into playing while reading a book around turn 20.
 
only fps performance on campaign map and still not enough.
i assume this game needs 1-2 months of just optimization patches until it is as fluid as shogun. with mods disabling some of the worthless minor faction and fixing the overall game balance i guess this game is enjoyable by winter :cry:
 
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