Espionage is pathetic

[CaptainPatch]

Even if there are some few things that your FEW spies can do, there's just way too few of them. FIVE operating at once, at most, by game's end? Ludicrous. In the Modern Era in Reality, EVERY major "civilization" had espionage networks in EVERY other major "civilization". As a game equivalent, if one assumes that the one spy represents something like _all_ of the CIA, then the US player should have one spy for every player (including himself) in the game, minimum. With multiple spies, you'd have the option to double down on crucial areas while deliberately neglecting others. The corresponding downside of LOTS of offensive spy activity would be a palpable loss of diplomatic trust from other nations, even allies. "How can we trust _____ when we KNOW he's going to exploit his presence here by spying on us?"

I'd really, really like to see a spy mission of sending a spy to a conquered City State to foment a revolt against the conqueror. If successful, the city returns to its former City State status.

 

[Chemical Toilet]

Just out of interest, has anyone successfully used a spy for a coup in a CS?

It looks like an interesting option, but I've never tried it because a) the chances of it succeeding always seem too low, even with a well levelled-up spy & b) it's probably asking to be attacked by whoever the ally happens to be....

All the time. I used to always use spies to rig elections and start coups, but as I learned to economic mechanics in BNW I found it more useful to just open patronage and buy CSs, and usually use spies as diplomats. I only use them to try and steal techs if I have a run away or I'm dead last in science.

 

[Yzman]

I play with Espionage turned off. Yeah it is very poorly implemented.

I would argue you are hurting yourself a lot now that diplomats can be used instead of spies.

 

[CaptainPatch]

I would argue you are hurting yourself a lot now that diplomats can be used instead of spies.

As spies, they're still far too inadequate to follow their stated name: ESPIONAGE agents. But serving as diplomats at the World Congress, they _do_ have some real value. Ergo, yes, a player should retain the Espionage component.

Still pathetically underpowered though.

 

[FrostK]

You can feel the power of expionage with England. On Deity ~20 turns after AI eneters Renessance you get message 'nothing to steal'.

 

[Resipsa]

Main issues IMHO:

Spies should be more effective in all tasks, when leveled up.

All tasks should help in leveling up spies, not just stealing and killing other spies.


Anyway, whole system is too underdeveloped. Most probably the weakest mechanic in Civ5.

There should be more ranks to make spies more effective.

 

[iamdanno]

I'd really, really like to see a spy mission of sending a spy to a conquered City State to foment a revolt against the conqueror. If successful, the city returns to its former City State status.

+1 for this. Great Idea!

 

[Gort]

I would like to see all spying activities having a risk, as well as all spying activities giving XP. If two spies go to rig the same city state, there should be a chance of one or both going home in a body bag.

I'd love to see double agents, too. If you kill an enemy spy, you sometimes get an extra spy you can send on one mission, then he's gone.

 

[tannyrank]

Yeah I don't get how you think the espionage is that bad. Takes hardly anytime to set up (110 turns to set up?! - you might have blacked out or something cos that is just plain WRONG!!!!) and replacement spies are sent quickly for ones KIA.

If I start to lag with tech I always send out spies to the largest civs and always nab a few techs until I get tech parity again.

Also good for maintaining Allied status with city states - this is really important as it allows you to rely on the happiness gained from their lux resources, rather than just having it for a few turns. Even better in a mercvantile CS and even better if you have fully explored the commerce tech tree and get the +2 for every lux resource.

They have also proven useful for me as diplomats.

never tried a coup.

My only gripe is that they don't level up when they rig elections. I mean I get not levelling up every rig, but maybe 1 in 5 or something? Or maybe just level up with regards to that particular city state?

 

[Lochlann]

If you send him out to steal tech -- about the ONLY offensive task available, he spends _110_ turns (Marathon game) just getting ready to TRY to steal a tech. And there's a good chance he'll die in the attempt -- with absolutely no replacement possibility.

Most of the discussion in the thread has focused on large-concept espionage stuff, but not much emphasis has been placed on the two misconceptions here.

1. Concerning length of time to steal a tech: are you familiar with cities' "Potential" rating? The number of filled-in stars that appear next to each city's name in the spy screen? The more Potential a city has, the more quickly your spy will steal techs there. If it is taking you 110 turns to steal a tech, your spy is in a city with very, very low Potential. Try moving the spy to a higher-Potential city. I play almost exclusively on Marathon, and I have never once needed 110 turns to steal a tech.

2. Replacement spies do exist. Several turns after a spy is killed, you will receive a new one, each and every time. This has been mentioned already, but not really emphasized.

These corrections probably won't change your mind concerning the efficacy or usefulness of the espionage system, but they may serve to decrease your frustration. If it took me 110 turns to steal a tech, and if spies were irreplaceable, I too would be pretty anti-espionage.

 

[Martock]

Even if there are some few things that your FEW spies can do, there's just way too few of them. FIVE operating at once, at most, by game's end? Ludicrous. In the Modern Era in Reality, EVERY major "civilization" had espionage networks in EVERY other major "civilization". As a game equivalent, if one assumes that the one spy represents something like _all_ of the CIA, then the US player should have one spy for every player (including himself) in the game, minimum. With multiple spies, you'd have the option to double down on crucial areas while deliberately neglecting others. The corresponding downside of LOTS of offensive spy activity would be a palpable loss of diplomatic trust from other nations, even allies. "How can we trust _____ when we KNOW he's going to exploit his presence here by spying on us?"

I'd really, really like to see a spy mission of sending a spy to a conquered City State to foment a revolt against the conqueror. If successful, the city returns to its former City State status.

I second both of these. It drives me batty that I only get 1 per era and can only have a max of 5. Invariably, they end up staying home to defend against others OR they turn into diplomats. Personally, I'd like to see all civs start with 2 spies at the Ren. era and then gain 2 more per era. Maybe even have the civ that starts a new era before others get +1 extra spy. Right now, it seems to be a disappointment.

 

[CaptainPatch]

Most of the discussion in the thread has focused on large-concept espionage stuff, but not much emphasis has been placed on the two misconceptions here.

1. Concerning length of time to steal a tech: are you familiar with cities' "Potential" rating? The number of filled-in stars that appear next to each city's name in the spy screen? The more Potential a city has, the more quickly your spy will steal techs there. If it is taking you 110 turns to steal a tech, your spy is in a city with very, very low Potential. Try moving the spy to a higher-Potential city. I play almost exclusively on Marathon, and I have never once needed 110 turns to steal a tech.

I am am far and away the tech leader in the game. I'm about to exit the Industrial Era while all 8 other civilizations are still in the Renaissance. My Capital city has a Potential of 20. The city my spy is in has a Potential of 18. (Second-highest in the game.) The tooltip says that that city's Research value is @3,750, but there's no table of values to show if that value is high (rich target) or low (slim pickings). I do know that I deliberately stopped the path that starts with Gunpowder (to keep the Great Wall's effects viable). And I do know the target DOES have Gunpowder because he has musketmen running around. (He also has a Constabulary already built, so he's not all that far behind me, overall.) Now, 20 versus 18 doesn't seem like such a huge disparity. And I KNOW there's tech there to be stolen. But when I placed my spy, after a few turns of Surveillance, the prepare-to-steal-tech prep was _120_ turns! That is utterly and thoroughly ridiculous! At a time when the most difficult tech to be researched amounts to <30 turns. (I could do Gunpowder in just 7.)

2. Replacement spies do exist. Several turns after a spy is killed, you will receive a new one, each and every time. This has been mentioned already, but not really emphasized.

Also, if you build the National Intelligence Agency, you get an additional spy. Which makes your entire spy network at game's end a whopping SIX spies! Oh, just think of the myriad of Intelligence ops you could run!

Not.

 

[fyar]

I am am far and away the tech leader in the game. I'm about to exit the Industrial Era while all 8 other civilizations are still in the Renaissance.

Well that's why you don't find it useful. It sounds like you're dominating that game well enough that you could probably afford to go up a level. I'm not one of those Deity players yet, but I already find them to be vital to keeping up in tech at Immortal. From the first city I tried, I was able to steal a tech in 30 turns.

Just for perspective, I was able to steal tech that would normally have required 1,000 . To steal it in 30 turns is effectively 1,000/30 = 33 /turn. Since I'm producing about 120 /turn, that's essentially a 25% boost to my science output! That's very useful.

 

[Lochlann]

I am am far and away the tech leader in the game. I'm about to exit the Industrial Era while all 8 other civilizations are still in the Renaissance. My Capital city has a Potential of 20. The city my spy is in has a Potential of 18. (Second-highest in the game.) The tooltip says that that city's Research value is @3,750, but there's no table of values to show if that value is high (rich target) or low (slim pickings). I do know that I deliberately stopped the path that starts with Gunpowder (to keep the Great Wall's effects viable). And I do know the target DOES have Gunpowder because he has musketmen running around. (He also has a Constabulary already built, so he's not all that far behind me, overall.) Now, 20 versus 18 doesn't seem like such a huge disparity. And I KNOW there's tech there to be stolen. But when I placed my spy, after a few turns of Surveillance, the prepare-to-steal-tech prep was _120_ turns! That is utterly and thoroughly ridiculous! At a time when the most difficult tech to be researched amounts to <30 turns. (I could do Gunpowder in just 7.)

I agree, that's ridiculous. I'm not sure what to tell you. I have also had Marathon games where I am the runaway tech leader--and in fact I too delay Dynamite if I've grabbed the Great Wall--but I've never experienced anything approaching 100+ turns when trying to snag the few techs I don't have. /shrug

I'm fairly certain that your capital's Potential has nothing to do with it, and that the stealing rate calculation involves the target city's Potential, your spy's level, and the target defensive buildings. I'm just not sure of how exactly the Potential score is determined: whether it's purely a reflection of the target city's population, or if empire-wide population is factored in to produce a "relative Potential" score, or if other elements enter into it.

 

[CaptainPatch]

I think I need a clarification. That number of turns that gets listed after the Surveillance period. Is it

A) An attempt to steal the tech won't be made until the counter drops to zero, or
B) Attempts are being made every turn, but as the number drops, the chances of success improve?

If it's A, then when you see HUGE, 100+ numbers, Espionage is really just a waste of time. In all probability, before the counter expires, whatever you're hoping to steal WILL already be acquired by doing the Research yourself.

If it's B, that would somewhat tolerable because there IS a chance of stealing a tech, however minute that chance might be.

 

[Yzman]

I think I need a clarification. That number of turns that gets listed after the Surveillance period. Is it

A) An attempt to steal the tech won't be made until the counter drops to zero, or
B) Attempts are being made every turn, but as the number drops, the chances of success improve?

If it's A, then when you see HUGE, 100+ numbers, Espionage is really just a waste of time. In all probability, before the counter expires, whatever you're hoping to steal WILL already be acquired by doing the Research yourself.

If it's B, that would somewhat tolerable because there IS a chance of stealing a tech, however minute that chance might be.

Its A. but once again, you are sticking on this number of 100+ turns, when people are telling you thats not the norm. Did you try espionage once or something and thats what you get? I usually get that in a city that has a lot of defense or doesn't have high enough potential. The potential level is the amount of stars you see. If you see 1 or 2 stars...go somewhere else. Its not worth it. Also the game is basically made so espionage won't be as useful to the civs that are ahead. That could be why your potential is so low.

 

[zenmaster]

Well that's why you don't find it useful. It sounds like you're dominating that game well enough that you could probably afford to go up a level.

Exactly! The current espionage system from my standpoint is IDEAL. Why?

#1-- You don't HAVE to play an involved espionage game if you don't want to. It's there for those who like it, but it doesn't break the game for those who don't like it.

#2-- The current espionage system actually has MEANINGFUL CHOICES. The decision whether to spy or diplomat based on your tech level and victory type you're aiming for... the decision on which civ to send your agent to can be based on tech or culture or tourism levels... and of course you can always send agents to save money on city-state bribes by rigging elections or engineering coups, or keep annoying coups from taking place possibly. Since your number of spies is limited, the choices are not trivial!

#3-- The current espionage system interacts just enough with the other subsystems (tech,tourism,World Congress) without being overpowered, underpowered, mandatory, or useless. There are benefits to be gained, but none game-breaking.

Thus, I disagree with the original poster 100%. The current espionage system is incredibly good! I hope they don't mess with it too much. If someone feels it is "pathetic" I would suggest either playing different difficulty levels or time settings to make it less "pathetic" for you, or largely ignore it and have your agents be diplomats or on counter-intelligence. It doesn't hurt you at all.

 

[Dralix]

I am am far and away the tech leader in the game. I'm about to exit the Industrial Era while all 8 other civilizations are still in the Renaissance. My Capital city has a Potential of 20. The city my spy is in has a Potential of 18.

Those values are population, not potential.

 

[CaptainPatch]

Dralix was right; I was looking at population numbers. BUTTTTTTT, The Potentials between the two cities is
ME -- 5 stars, tooltip = 3,815
TARGET -- 5 stars, tooltip = 3,741

I sent a second agent to another city that had a Potential of 4-1/2 stars, and a tooltip = 3,300. My #2 city has only 3-1/2 stars, and the tooltip = 2,619. Now, after that second agent did his Surveillance and began Gathering Intelligence, the starting counter was _130_ turns. Which is odd, because while the other three cities have Constabularies (-25% chance), the target's #2 doesn't.

Now, when I started spying the #1 target, I had not started Gunpowder. The counter started at 120. Now it's at 33. Butttt, now I've exhausted all of the available techs, leaving me with ONLY Gunpowder (6 turns, now down to 1). The next tier is a couple of 11s, then three 16s. I'm not sure he'll even have anything left to steal by the time those 33 turns are up! In which case, those 120 turns preparing to steal tech was a complete and utter WASTE.

For what it's worth, in case it's what is affecting the game this way, the Difficulty is set at Warlord, and Duration is Marathon.

Now, before anyone conjectures that those large numbers are because the Difficulty is set too low, stop and think: If the Difficulty is _easier_, why would stealing tech be _harder_?

 

[sendos]

You guys aren't doing it right. It always works the same.

DON'T send your spy to the number one guy. Send him someplace else like your neighbor who you need parity with. Spy it up until he comes to you and asks you to stop. If you dont stop, he will assign a counter-spy and you are dead. Instead, move to the next guy, rinse and repeat. Don't go after number one if you can help it. Once you are number one, park your ace back in the cap.

That's how it works.

This. AI's that are 1 with tech will always have a spy in their capital or city with high science potential.