Realism Invictus

Here is the Ffh2 code for increasing difficulty and flexible difficulty (below void CvGame::doTurn() in the CvGamer.cpp file), if it helps in anyway and you guys are interested:

Spoiler :
Code:
 if (isOption(GAMEOPTION_CHALLENGE_INCREASING_DIFFICULTY))
{
changeIncreasingDifficultyCounter(1);
/*************************************************************************************************/
/** Xienwolf Tweak 12/13/08 **/
/** ADDON (Modification for Gamespeed) merged Sephi **/
/** Modifies Challenge escalation based on Gamespeed **/
/*************************************************************************************************/
/** ---- Start Original Code ---- **
if (getIncreasingDifficultyCounter() >= 50)
/** ---- End Original Code ---- **/
if (getIncreasingDifficultyCounter() >= 75 * GC.getGameSpeedInfo(getGameSpeedType()).getGrowthPercent() / 100)
/*************************************************************************************************/
/** Tweak END **/
/*************************************************************************************************/
{
if (getHandicapType() < (GC.getNumHandicapInfos() - 1))
{
for (iI = 0; iI < MAX_PLAYERS; iI++)
{
if (GET_PLAYER((PlayerTypes)iI).isAlive())
{
if (GET_PLAYER((PlayerTypes)iI).isHuman())
{
GC.getInitCore().setHandicap((PlayerTypes)iI, (HandicapTypes)(getHandicapType() + 1));
}
}
}
setHandicapType((HandicapTypes)(getHandicapType() + 1));
changeIncreasingDifficultyCounter(getIncreasingDifficultyCounter() * -1);
}
}
}
if (isOption(GAMEOPTION_FLEXIBLE_DIFFICULTY))
{
if (!GC.getGameINLINE().isGameMultiPlayer())
{
changeFlexibleDifficultyCounter(1);
/*************************************************************************************************/
/** Xienwolf Tweak 12/13/08 **/
/** ADDON (Modification for Gamespeed) merged Sephi **/
/** Modifies Challenge escalation based on Gamespeed **/
/*************************************************************************************************/
/** ---- Start Original Code ---- **
if (getFlexibleDifficultyCounter() >= 20)
/** ---- End Original Code ---- **/
if (getFlexibleDifficultyCounter() >= 50 * GC.getGameSpeedInfo(getGameSpeedType()).getGrowthPercent() / 100)
/*************************************************************************************************/
/** Tweak END **/
/*************************************************************************************************/
{
for (iI = 0; iI < MAX_PLAYERS; iI++)
{
if (GET_PLAYER((PlayerTypes)iI).isAlive())
{
if (GET_PLAYER((PlayerTypes)iI).isHuman())
{
if (getPlayerRank((PlayerTypes)iI) <= (countCivPlayersAlive() / 3) && getHandicapType() < (GC.getNumHandicapInfos() - 1))
{
GC.getInitCore().setHandicap((PlayerTypes)iI, (HandicapTypes)(getHandicapType() + 1));
setHandicapType((HandicapTypes)(getHandicapType() + 1));
changeFlexibleDifficultyCounter(getFlexibleDifficultyCounter() * -1);
}
if (getPlayerRank((PlayerTypes)iI) > (countCivPlayersAlive() * 2 / 3) && getHandicapType() > 0)
{
GC.getInitCore().setHandicap((PlayerTypes)iI, (HandicapTypes)(getHandicapType() - 1));
setHandicapType((HandicapTypes)(getHandicapType() - 1));
changeFlexibleDifficultyCounter(getFlexibleDifficultyCounter() * -1);
}
}
}
}
}
}
}
//FfH: End Add

Hmm, actually there should be more to it elsewhere, heh.
 
Kudos and Huzzah to all the Devs and Testers &#8211; RI 3.2 is amazing. Of all the Civ mods, it clearly has the highest Charisma and Dexterity scores. Heartfelt thanks on delivering such a deep and involving experience.

First of all, thank you so much for making WALLS a critical early-era build. That&#8217;s something that&#8217;s been needed since Civ 2, and the new system of benefits in conjunction with Civics and techs works brilliantly. A++

Secondly, I&#8217;m delighted with the new array of Civics. While some old favorites still have immediate and obvious benefits, the whole system has been re-worked so efficiently that I have been compelled to choose or target some that previously I ignored in nearly every game (like Caste and Merchant Princess). I&#8217;m sure over time I&#8217;ll find a few that I will mostly avoid, I still appreciate how they link together to allow exploitation of specific situations.

Thirdly, I&#8217;ll echo the comments about the World Builder &#8211; what a joyful discovery! Having the buildings in alpha order in the city menus alone is huge. All the other features and options are just fantastic.

And the Logistics stuff is just &#8211; well, I&#8217;m speechless.

I&#8217;m only half-way thru a game, so there&#8217;s still much to explore, but I wanted to share my thanks and join in the conversation again.

Some observations/questions:

I&#8217;m still getting the hang of the food math, but I see the AI Civs switching back and forth from Agrarian to Pastoral Nomads and back again all the time. Not sure I understand what&#8217;s driving that &#8211; do they recalc the benefits after every turn?

I just reached the ability to switch to Guild Monopolies &#8211; a target Civic in any 3.1 game &#8211; but, because so many of my cities run on Cows and Sheep, the drop in food production was sizable. That means I have to build some more farms and research farm-boosting techs BEFORE I can move to that Civic, even though I won&#8217;t be working some of those farm actively since other spaces will be more productive. That's a new problem for me in Civ, and I like it.

I admit that I do miss the Culture Bomb, but I like the new model of Great Works much better. However, it appears that the scenario (Large Earth) disables cities flipping from Culture. So I have some neighboring cities that are 75% or more my culture, surrounded by spaces I control. And of course they are starving.

A possible modification for future editions that I&#8217;ve mentioned before on this thread is that it would be ideal if WALLS could fix borders so that, regardless of the cultural percentage, you kept control of the 8 adjacent spaces (and CASTLES could expand that to the next 12). The percentage of alien population would still factor into unrest/happiness, but you would be able to exploit resources and distribute some population. This would actually be a more &#8220;realistic&#8221; treatment of political conquest.

Lastly, I would also agree with the comment from Ununcle who was concerned about the Barbarian strength in Asia on the Large Earth map. While the European Civs are getting killed off by other AI Civs, half the Asian Civs get destroyed by the Barbarians before the Mongols can even get their engine going. Also, on the Large map, I noticed the Persians get stuck with one city and can&#8217;t grow. You may want to review that.

When I played on the Huge Map in 3.1, I routinely edited the starting world to eliminate a large number of the minor and barbarian cities (I did that both to speed up play and give the AI Civ&#8217;s more room to grow). I might try something similar on the 3.2 Large map and see if that creates any monster Civs.

Here&#8217;s a truly radical suggestion: Can some AI Civs start off with a Tribal Fort to protect their initial city? That might give Civs like the two Chinas, Turks and Ethiopians a fighting chance against the superior K-mod Barbarians. They&#8217;d still get overrun and held back in the early game, but with the ability to develop their tech tree they would eventually break out. I really like this idea and will play with it in some future games via WB &#8211; it might help emulate the Civs that only emerged into prominence after the European &#8220;Classical&#8221; age.
 
The worldbuilder is already outdated, and teamedit screen has an error :D
 
Wow, I don't think I've had as much luck in RI as in the game I'm playing now (large world map, Monarch, English). I'm playing as the English since it eliminates the barb/rush or land grab wars most other civs have too contend with.

The only other major civ to start in that environment is the Japanese, but since there's a barb fort to the north, they only get 2 city locations at the outset. England gets 3 cities easy (4 if you settle Iceland). Also, Anti Clerical is a lot easier to neutralize then that horrid isolationist curse. Plus if the cards fall right as Britain one can possibly colonize east Africa which gives you Elephant, Rice, Banana, Gold, and Deer nearly doubling your early game resources. That's a ton of resources for a not so huge of a maintenance hit.
Well, I knew from my last game settling east Africa needs to be done before Mansa (Timbuktu) gets too big, or someone else beats you to the punch (my last try the Arabs had 2 cities there), I kicked them out, but it wasn't easy. Bottom line at the outset, is it's important too improve relations with the French and Spanish to get open borders with them as soon as possible or you can't get a settler down there in time to avoid an lengthy war.

In this game as luck would have it,, France and Spain attacked the Romans and asked me join. My 2 most dangerous opponents neutralized for the cost of me going to war with an opponent not even within striking distance. Um,, OK, why not?. I then got the boost I needed in relations for an open border agreement with both just about the time my first galley was built, and when I got down to east Africa, Timbuktu was under siege by the Berbers. Freakin awsome. They took it the next turn and all of manse's culture with it. Couldn't be better. A culture war with the Berbers. A functionally illiterate civ that will be chucking rocks at my elephants. The Berbers are so lame I'll have the whole coast to myself before the classical Era closes.

Then as I'm getting another settler and some chariots ready to send south to carve out the rest of east Africa according to plan, I find that France has been destroyed. Well that happened fast. Every game I've played so far had France dominating Europe. The Romans and Spanish not only beat down France, they raised the 2 best cities instead of keeping them!! How the hell did the Romans not want Paris?:crazyeye: This left the entire french countryside wide open. No culture from the Netherlands to Spain. The one city the Romans kept was 3 clicks southwest of Berlin. A true AI brain fart of Epic proportions. Lets burn a large developed capital with 4 or five buildings to the ground, but keep the undeveloped satellite city 3 clicks from another culture spewing Capitol. WTF?

OK,, heh, minor change of plans to accommodate my allies ineptitude. I plant my would be second Africa colonizing settler down in Burgundy, claiming the hemp, wheat and Wine and since London is already flourishing (I built Pyramids and Stonehenge) I've already got culture throughout north eastern France, making burgundy the new Paris.

The only scary part is that most of my military was dispatched to east Africa to make sure my colony was safe. So I had an Axe-man and 2 chariots defending a size one Burgundy 20 turns away from walls. I could get an archer there every three turns so I'll need 20 turns to have around 10 units and walls and feel pretty safe. I'm thinking my luck will run out though. With France gone a hungry Roman Army must be on the horizon.

I then see a stack of 12 Spanish units move south of Burgundy's radius. I'm wondering how hell they even got there. WTH? How could Spain have a navy big enough to transport an army this size this early? So I open up the world builder to see what's going on, and one of the Tribal forts (the one on the Mediterranean side) is freakin gone. Somehow during the Spanish, French, Roman War, one of them must have taken out the fort, which I thought was impossible with Classical era units?

So Now I'm thinking, well, there goes my "foothold on the European continent" experiment. The usually bottled up Spanish (rightfully so because they start with 3 excellent cities), now have free range to march armies into France. Then with a spy I see an even bigger Roman army to the east which was now in the no longer french city (tours) that one they didn't raise (around the Netherlands).

I'm thinking they're certain to dog pile me. That's what any AI civs would do in vanilla. In regular civ it always seemed like me against a dog pile. But in this game the Spanish actually did what a human player would have. It appears to have noticed that Romans main bulk of forces were like ten turns away up north and their second city Antium (on the Mediterranean) with only 3 defenders was the best target. It was the gate way for Spain, Rome and France. The most strategically important bottle neck in the world at this point I imagine.

The Spanish actually moved east on Antium stabbing the Romans in the back instead of me. By the time the bulk of Roman forces got south to contend with this new turn of events, the Spanish raised Antium and moved on Rome. They almost sacked Rome too but ran out of gas as the bulk of Romans northern forces arrived and they duked it out reducing both armies to negligible 4 or 5 unit stacks.

My one complaint is the AI raising cities. Rome should not have raised Paris. If it was because of maintenance then why keep a further away less resourceful Tours. In no way should Spain have raised Antium. It was the gateway to Spain without that tribal fort, plus it's battered army could've dug in, healed up, and probably defeated Romes Army which was still several turns away. Heck, had the Spanish not sacked Antium, Rome would've been an easy take I bet.

Anyways, By the time the ashes settled Burgundy was greater in population then Rome or Madrid with a bigger army then both combined. I had a city on the Mediterranean (cool now I have Marble), and no foreign culture to impede either cities growth. By the time Spain recovered I had walls and armies defending my
cities controlling all of France and a size 5 city in east Africa. I've opened the door to around 6 new resources (9 when I remove the Berbers from Timbuktu)

Not bad considering I did it without a single shot fired by me. The Romans, who were in first place at the outset, will never recover. They have Rome and a city in the Netherlands being culture squeezed by Berlin and Burgundy. And since there is no longer a Tribal fort between me and the Iberian peninsular, I just may pay Spain a visit in the coming centuries. I love this freaking mod. :lol:
 
So I open up the world builder to see what's going on, and one of the Tribal forts (the one on the Mediterranean side) is freakin gone. Somehow during the Spanish, French, Roman War, one of them must have taken out the fort, which I thought was impossible with Classical era units?

It's been awhile since I've actually seen it happen, but forts just... disappear sometimes.

It's odd. I've bug reported it before, and posted saves from older revisions. Not sure if it is in this case, Spain certainly stockpiles enough units to manage to get lucky 10 times in a row to kill them....
 
It's been awhile since I've actually seen it happen, but forts just... disappear sometimes.

It's odd. I've bug reported it before, and posted saves from older revisions. Not sure if it is in this case, Spain certainly stockpiles enough units to manage to get lucky 10 times in a row to kill them....

I have no experience at all of the World Map, but I recall seeing the tribal fort is obsoleted by one early ancient time tech. Was it ToolMaking? I don't remember. And anyways, obsoleting often means cannot be produced, not dissappearing...

Anyways, there are weird stuff regarding then barbarian team since the last version like the no unit barb city spawn.
 
It's been awhile since I've actually seen it happen, but forts just... disappear sometimes.

It's odd. I've bug reported it before, and posted saves from older revisions. Not sure if it is in this case, Spain certainly stockpiles enough units to manage to get lucky 10 times in a row to kill them....

Dang. So much for my perfect luck and awesome start. You peaked my curiosity and from the saves I have, at 1870 BC, Spain had 4 Iberian Cidainh's (chariots) and 2 militias in Barcelona 2 clicks south of 2 tribal forts. The Romans had 3 Polybian Legionary's and 2 militia 3 clicks north west. The next availible save was at 1720 BC and the tribal forts were gone. The only difference in troops was the Spanish no longer had the 4 chariots. No frickin way 4 ancient age chariots take out 2 tribal forts. Not even in Civ three's wildest Phalanx beats tank dreams does that happen. Those puppies vanished. Damn it!! :cry: I don't care I'm playing this thing out:lol: I'm still chalking it up to masterful diplomacy and cunning plan. Tribal forts? What the hell are you talking about? LA LA La La!!! I can't hear you.....:king:
 
I have no experience at all of the World Map, but I recall seeing the tribal fort is obsoleted by one early ancient time tech. Was it ToolMaking? I don't remember. And anyways, obsoleting often means cannot be produced, not dissappearing...

Anyways, there are weird stuff regarding then barbarian team since the last version like the no unit barb city spawn.

Tribal forts can not be produced nor do they become obsolete. They were implemented to control AI civs like Russia or China from running away with land grabs early in the game on on the world map. It also keeps civs like the vikings or the germans in check long enough to make other civs relevant and not just AI fodder. It's quite an excellent concept actually. That's how I saw it.
 
I'm thinking the tribal fort thing may have something to do with city proximity. For instance, when a cities cultural border pops, a goodie hut in the vicinity will pop with it. I'm thinking enough culture may pop tribal forts the way goodie huts are popped. The 2 tribal forts that vanished has a city ruins right next to the plot. I'm thinking France or Rome found a city there, and when the first culture pop happened it took the Tribal forts out. I wish I had a save between the dates that may have happened. I tred to test it in the world builder with the other fort, but the fort is in spain and whenever I add culture to my city in the WB the game crashes. I'll bet that's it though. That would explain everything.

EDIT: Nope, That's not It. I just tried it in a new game. No go. I give up. The things just vanished.
 
I think I have a bug with epidemic colony. I picked up an epidemic in my only city very early in the game (before archery early). Now, my capital has -1 unhappiness for epidemic colony... even though I haven't actually got one there (not built, not in the building list, etc)

Edit: Nevermind, I was reading the panel wrong.
 
found a nice workaround for the can't-assign-a-spy bug. set the city governor to maximize espionage, automate, then unautomate. presto! now you have a spy and can reassign everything else. easier than what people were talking about with the interface
 
A possible modification for future editions that I’ve mentioned before on this thread is that it would be ideal if WALLS could fix borders so that, regardless of the cultural percentage, you kept control of the 8 adjacent spaces (and CASTLES could expand that to the next 12). The percentage of alien population would still factor into unrest/happiness, but you would be able to exploit resources and distribute some population. This would actually be a more “realistic” treatment of political conquest.

Here’s a truly radical suggestion: Can some AI Civs start off with a Tribal Fort to protect their initial city? That might give Civs like the two Chinas, Turks and Ethiopians a fighting chance against the superior K-mod Barbarians. They’d still get overrun and held back in the early game, but with the ability to develop their tech tree they would eventually break out. I really like this idea and will play with it in some future games via WB – it might help emulate the Civs that only emerged into prominence after the European “Classical” age.

The tribal forts idea would cause the same balance issues in a different way. Civs with forts would unjustly annihilate those without. Civs with tribal forts are effectively invincible until the age of gunpowder, not just from barbarians, but from any threat, even the player.

The walls, and castle idea I feel doesn't make sense given just how large a single tile is. If I'm guessing your interpretation right, a castle also protects a significant area of land around it, and the citizens will retreat behind the wall if they are in danger, however, this large portion of land is considered in the settlement yields. While the commerce and production likely come from the city, the 4 food received likely represents the surrounding rural areas and farmland. Each tile could be its own city in its own right.
For example, Look at Greece. I've always been bothered with the greek naming system. Every name for the Greek cities: Thebes, Sparta, Athens, Corinith, Argos, are all easily within the borders of the Greek starting City. The only way to legitimately name the Greek citys is to name them by region, thus rather then naming the starting city Athens, I name it The Hellenic States. Up north I have my military city, Macedonia (Alexander's home region). And in the northeast I have the major financial Center, Byzantium, which I rename Constantinople in medieval times. In reality even Constantinople includes several other cities many of which are quite powerful on their own, like Nicaea and Adrionople. When the turks took Nicaea, the great walls of Constantinople did not factor in their ability to control the region.
The alignment these outlying cities end up becoming is controled by Culture, and Culture represents much more then just how cool a city is. It represents that city's reign of control, and walls will to nothing to effect this, though, surely, they should provide a culture bonus to show the power they represent to those who see them.

When a 'city' loses its surrounding regions via culture, its representing that region losing its influence on the cities around it. Don't think of those tiles as simply farmland, and mines. Again, looking at Greece, As its cultural borders expanded it represented city states recognizing themselves as 'greek'. What we see as a boring border is actually filled with many minor wars and diplomatic venues too small to be portrayed in the game.
 
Thanks for the ranged attack and button improvements in the SVN, sjodster!
Woot! :)

As I noted in the commit: I haven't had a chance to test the new ranged attack AI very much so any feedback you can provide is much appreciated.

-Josh
 
Ok, I think I see more where your going, but that idea of a border has only existed in modern times thanks mostly to good map making and nationalism. Today we have drawn borders, and localities can't just decide for themselves what they are, but historically they could. This change has resulted in some crazy things like the revolutionary war, WW1, WW2, The Civil war. Its this idea that now we are all a part of a state, and even further, a Federation which ruined the culture mechanic in modern times.

States and countries are new concepts. Before them you were just a part of whatever influenced your locality the most at any given point in time. If your trading with the greeks, speak their language, and behave as they do you'll consider yourself greek. If your far from the center of this culture you won't be as heavily influenced, and you may not consider yourself part of anything at all, or you may just out of convenience. These borders fluctuated frequently, and were never written in stone.This is what the culture system is trying to represent.

Heres a cool scenario. Great cultural powers like Greece actually did conquer entire regions simply through culture. For example, ask someone about the time a Macedonian emperor raised an army, conquered Greece, and created the great empire of Macedonia. This is actually an extremely complex and strange situation that rarely gets mentioned. Alexander was not Greek, the Greeks considered the Macedonians barbarians, and the Macedonians were not friendly towards the Greeks at all. Of all things, the Greeks 'conquered' Macedonia through their culture via the Olympics.
Here's where it gets really twisted if your trying to relate these events to the game. The Greeks refused to allow Macedonia into their culture, and Macedonia conquered the Greeks to BE Greek. Alexander defeats the greeks and forces them under his control as 'Commander of the Greeks' and he goes on to make Greece an empire.

This adds the question. Whats a nation?
Rome conquers Greece, but the Greeks are still Greeks. Their is no rebellion to become Greek again. In the game we consider the western roman empire italian, and the eastern (byzantine) roman empire Greek.

The Ottoman empire conquers Egypt, and then he leaves them to their own ways. They are still considered a part of the Ottoman empire, but really they are just Egypt, and the sultan knows he doesn't actually have the power to mettle around in Egypt's affairs. When the Ottoman empire falls, there is, Egypt.

These are some examples of how borders and nations aren't really a thing like we consider them today. People hardly ever referred to themselves as the entity we remember them as. If a guy comes up with a stick and says your part of <random nation> now. Great. When they leave they are just going to continue being what they are.

(sorry, I found this surprisingly interesting and lost myself)
 
i have feudal contract but nobody is offering vassal state or capitulation... did something change..?
 
When the turks took Nicaea, the great walls of Constantinople did not factor in their ability to control the region.

If I understood the mod developers correctly, one of the feature of 3.3. will be that tile ownership can change via battles, just as in Revolutions. It works well there. Though I think with most of the Revolution mod components incorporated the harsh penalties for the early game should be somehow eased.
I'm especially keen to see new civs emerge from Barbarian cities that are left to their own devices. That was always one of my favourite components of Rev and could easily simplify and strenghthen the idea of the world map: just don't put all civs there in the beginning but let them emerge from Barb cities and peripheral regions of great empires via cultural linked starts (European civs only start in Europe, Western Asian ones in the Middle East, and so on).
 
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