Pie's Ancient Europe

[pie_at]

Yes, I meant that with the fort:
Place a road-connected fort (clay or stone) into neutral area on a resource. Keep the road visible (eg. place troops or at sea ships). Fortify a unit into the fort. The resource is yours.

But there's a catch: the owner with the most standing troops in there, gains the plot. In SP against AI no problem. But in MP it's a funny element Declare war or accept that you are weaker

Yes, there is a FAQ for all features in Pedia: it's called PAE Mod Concepts (one of the last titles in the list)

Thanks for your comment about PAE. I hope, it not only brings more historical elements into the game (that does every mod), I really think, it reveals stuff, you didn't know before. Isn't it?

 

[PlotinusRedux]

Yes, it's definitely educational. Other mods bring historical elements into the game, but the shear scale of what you have done dwarfs any other mods I've seen. I'm about 18 hours into my first game of it, and I'm still discovering new things you've added--it's like as soon as I think, "It would be nice if it did x," I find out "Oh, it does." Just now I was wishing I could drag ships across the Isthmus of Corinth like they actually did, and I was browsing your Civilopedia entries and sure enough, supply wagons can portage ships across land.

You've added a ton of new features to the game that add to its historical feel and enhanced its game play with everything still feeling balanced and polished--nothing feels kludged and I haven't run into any bugs yet. I've been coding and gaming for over 30 years now, and I'm awestruck by both your design and implementation. You have earned my highest praise.

Something I've wanted to do for a long time is a really good Peloponnesian War scenario. My interest in history really started with Thucydides. I've seen a few scenarios of it for Civ over the years, and of course Warlords included one, but they were all missing too many critical strategic and tactical elements to really capture the essence of the war.

I played Civ 1 and 2, then didn't really get back to it until Civ 5. I toyed with trying to make a scenario for Civ 5, but there were too many basic game mechanics that were wrong for it, like the one unit per tile rule. I just recently decided to give Civ 4 a try after reading it was more flexible and detailed than Civ 5, and ran into your mod fairly quickly.

It's already got a lot of what I'd need to make a good Peloponnesian War scenario. I'd adjust the units a bit, greatly increasing the gold maintenance costs of naval units with a discount for Athen's infantry rowers, give Sparta a ridiculous barracks wonder with +12 xp for new units, etc., increase the cost and effectiveness of city walls with siege machinery tech locked out, vassals prohibited from building new city walls (which amounted to a declaration of independence), and spies able to subvert walls only with a massive espionage advantage--all of that is fairly straight forward. Even finding a way to represent Athen's massive oversea sources of grain as long as it wasn't blockaded and controlled the Hellespont or was friendly with an un-blockaded Egypt shouldn't be difficult.

The biggest issues would be how to represent the Delian League, and under what conditions late in the game Persia would pump gold to Sparta to allow it to field a navy. Probably the members of the Delian League will need to be minor civs vassal-ed to Athens, with the ones that had already tried to leave and were forced back in capitulated vassals and the others free vassals, with each producing a tithe resource Athens could demand and have translated into gold by a "cult" of the Delian League.

Ideally, though, the conditions for them leaving vassalage wouldn't be land size or population, but more based Athen's naval power or the course of the war (+1 against leaving for each unit Athens kills, -1 for each it loses, +10 for each city captured, -10 for each city lost, or some such), with Athenian and Spartan spies able to add or subtract points towards leaving with missions.

Once a vassal state meets the requirements to leave vassalage, what does the AI take into account in deciding whether to do so? Does the military power of the dominant state affect the decision, or even better, the military power of the dominant state that is in the vicinity of the vassal?

I haven't looked yet at what can be done in Civ 4 or with your mod via XML and Python as opposed to what requires DLL changes. If something did need a DLL change, is your source code something you share publicly? Or would you consider incorporating source for a scenario into yours, if it was only activated by an XML property the scenario would set?

 

[cool.sound]

Hello;

JohnDay made a similar scenario for PAE 5 beta 7 though it did not make the "PAE 5 final patch 1" release...probably because of time. It was a good scenario though yours sounds good too.

so please go ahead; more scenarios are great!!!

you could check the German forum http://www.civforum.de/forumdisplay.php?343-Pie-s-Antikes-Europa

...

I think that the premise for the mod or I should say one of it's requirements is for it to be Mac compatible; which means no DLL changes can be made.

 

[Keinpferd]

Something I've wanted to do for a long time is a really good Peloponnesian War scenario. My interest in history really started with Thucydides.

Fantastic news, Plotinus. Many PAE players have been waiting for a Peloponnesian War scenario for a long time. John Day's Peloponnesian scenario is loosely based on history but meant more in a fun way, which certainly targets an audience. To be honest, I'd much prefer a "real" scenario created in the knowledge of Thucydides.

In my case, it's the other way around: through PAE I came to read the full Thucydides last year. My interest in ancient history had been maybe just a little more than average, before PAE.

Another thought would be to team up with John Day (who did a good job in finding a playable and reasonable map), to avoid making everything anew from scratch. His scenario file is here.

 

[Horatius]

I just noticed that you have code onCityAcquiredAndKept. I'm confident that codes there can cause OOS issues. Just saying.

 

[pie_at]

Redux:
Oh man... for the first two paragraphes, I wasn't really prepared for!
Thank you for that praise! It's such exaggerated , that I want to ask, if I could quote this:

Yes, it's definitely educational. Other mods bring historical elements into the game, but the shear scale of what you have done dwarfs any other mods I've seen. I'm about 18 hours into my first game of it, and I'm still discovering new things you've added--it's like as soon as I think, "It would be nice if it did x," I find out "Oh, it does." Just now I was wishing I could drag ships across the Isthmus of Corinth like they actually did, and I was browsing your Civilopedia entries and sure enough, supply wagons can portage ships across land.

You've added a ton of new features to the game that add to its historical feel and enhanced its game play with everything still feeling balanced and polished--nothing feels kludged and I haven't run into any bugs yet. I've been coding and gaming for over 30 years now, and I'm awestruck by both your design and implementation. You have earned my highest praise.

on the first page for advertisement.
If you want to change something with the phrases, just post them, so I can be sure, it's ok for a quote. (of course, if you allow it)
For PAE V there is just missing a personal comment.


Ok, now about your plans to create a Pelo-Scenario:


Yes, as the others have said. JohnDay will make a Pelo Scenario, but not with your conditions. You wrote changes, that sounds as if you should make a PAE modmod. Of course, this is also possible and I support that. But I can't put two different rules into one mod (eg. XP points of Spartian agoge, locked techs for vassals, prohibit city walls for them,...).
The ideas are fine, but they would only concern especially Greek history.

The Delian League. Yes, not only that, the whole theme about city states doesn't work in Civ IV but probably in Civ V. A city that you can't manage, but which can support you or not. That would be a great thing! But in CIV IV, I can't imagine that, maybe with 40 Civ.dll and Minor Civs (can be set in CivilizationInfos.xml).
With the standard 18 CIV limit, you are limited to a small "playing area".
So, those things only would work as a stand alone modmod.

But, if you need things or you have ideas, that fit to all nations and can be easily done (eg. over land transport of ships), then I will of course add such a feature into the next possible PAE patch.


About your questions:

Once a vassal state meets the requirements to leave vassalage, what does the AI take into account in deciding whether to do so? Does the military power of the dominant state affect the decision, or even better, the military power of the dominant state that is in the vicinity of the vassal?

In BTS a vassal leaves his hegemon with land mass (from the state of vassalage) and power (compared to the hegemon).
In PAE there are more factors: if a vassal loses a city, there are more possibilites:
If the vassal's and the enemy's power is bigger then the power of the hegemon, the vassal can switch flag or gets independend again and helps you against his further hegemon.

I haven't looked yet at what can be done in Civ 4 or with your mod via XML and Python as opposed to what requires DLL changes. If something did need a DLL change, is your source code something you share publicly? Or would you consider incorporating source for a scenario into yours, if it was only activated by an XML property the scenario would set?

PAE doesn't use SDK at the moment because of MAC compatibility. But as the main reason, the lack of time.

If you want some rule changes for your scenario, which mainly concerns XML changes, it would be best, you create a modmod. I develope PAE all the time and will add some new python features.
If you have only some changes for python, I agree to add this into the EventManager for your scenario.
Another possibility is to create a certain dll file for your scenario.

I just noticed that you have code onCityAcquiredAndKept. I'm confident that codes there can cause OOS issues. Just saying.

Thx, Horatius. Is this really a non global function?
But I even have OOS troubles without the whole python folder! ;(

 

[Horatius]

Unfortunately, it can even be base BTS code causing troubles.
Btw, hopefully some day you'll organize and separate into different files that untamed python file of yours for other modmodders.

 

[pie_at]

Unfortunately, it can even be base BTS code causing troubles.

I don't give up

Btw, hopefully some day you'll organize and separate into different files that untamed python file of yours for other modmodders.

Oh, I can manage it and have a good overview

I am no real python programmer, so I am not really sure how to outsource a feature. And I had no time to learn how to do it yet. There are some more ideas in my head that wants to get to live... so, when it's time, I try to find out.
But I am sure, as it is, it's the fastest way in implementing for turn time.

 

[isenchine]

I am no real python programmer...

So, you're not a real python programmer?... really?... then who is ?!

But I am sure, as it is, it's the fastest way in implementing for turn time.

Absolutely

 

[pie_at]

Horatius: onCityAndKept: I had a look now, it's only a player's message. that's OOS safe.

isenchine: yes, I first started with Python with this mod
I've learned other languages, like java and c++. but I refuse to program SDK because then, it has no end....

 

[Horatius]

Nothing to learn. Since you mainly use EventManager functions simply call stuff created in another file in such and, of course, add imports at the file start.

Simple example -> file name.class().def(data): MercenaryUtils.MercenaryUtils().placeMercenaries(argsList)

I'm not teaching you anything with this at all!

But I am sure, as it is, it's the fastest way in implementing for turn time.

Not sure if that is relevant or an issue and by separating, you can avoid, for example not noticing (because of the quantity of stuff you have in one file) that if pUnit.isBarbarian(): is called twice onUnitMove when it could be there only once.

Stuff onUnitMove is the real time killer not calling and returning data through different files.
Don't mind me.

 

[Horatius]

Horatius: onCityAndKept: I had a look now, it's only a player's message. that's OOS safe.

Oh, i misread it. Ok.

 

[isenchine]

OK: you're not the absolutely best python modder on this forum...

BUT you do have a mod that works efficiently and everybody is praising its very special features that are all due to your python skills.

For the non-initiated, the main python file in BtS is the CvEventManager.py which in BtS is over 1,000 lines. In PAE V, the same file is over 16,000 lines !

(OK, there are some blank lines and some codes just kept for reference...)

 

[pie_at]

Horatius:
I even can't imagine that. To go on with your example of Mercenaries. What about the onNetMessage-popups for that which are included in a second file?

Stuff onUnitMove is the real time killer not calling and returning data through different files.
Don't mind me.

So, does this mean, it's better it keeps like it is ?

BUT you do have a mod that works efficiently and everybody is praising its very special features that are all due to your python skills.

I think, a good game is not made by a good programming only. The implementations of ideas and a creative mind is also very, very important! The idea comes first and then everything goes it's way. I didn't wrote 16.000 lines in one time. It's a developement over years.

And the 1.000 lines in BTS are just empty functions, waiting for a modder who wants to add some new stuff into BTS.

And the features in PAE are just copies of historical backgrounds, I tried to implement in a very adequate way. That's my excuse.

There are lot of great thinking people out there (civfanatics and civforum) and if I'm not the one who adds new stuff, someone else would do it any time. Maybe.
I am glad, I have a restless mind for new things and the flavor to solve problems, whatever they are. And modding on PAE gives me a kind of satisfaction

But at the moment, I'm stuck with an OOS problem. For that, I would be glad if any "ghost" would help me. Did I already say, that probably the workboat could be defective? But I don't know why. On Sunday I will go on with my try and error session.

 

[platyping]

16000 lines is more than my gigapack with 200+ python wonders

What Horatius meant would be something like my WB, where different components are coded in different files, while each of them is then imported into the main WB file, else the WB file can probably beat that 16000 lines.

But Pie is right, all in one file is faster, since you can combine some codes together instead of repeated codes for each component. For instance, iPlayer, pPlayer, iTeam and pTeam are defined once in gigapack and use for multiple wonders in say onBuildingBuilt, whereas if each wonder is coded in one file, you will need 200 files and define the same thing 200 times.

 

[pie_at]

oooh, you can't compare a file with wonders with a file of countless different features
I am sure, if you had a "python" mod, it would be similar. because I know some of those countless scripts you have in the download section and you do a very, very good job!

For instance, iPlayer, pPlayer, iTeam and pTeam are defined once in gigapack and use for multiple wonders in say onBuildingBuilt, whereas if each wonder is coded in one file, you will need 200 files and define the same thing 200 times.

I think so too.
Yes, my code looks very untamed, even because some comments are in German and others in English, or mixed when I prefered the shorter word in German or English

But if you read a bit, it's easy understanding. And it's MORE EASY to copy some features into another mod. e.g. Black Fog: Just add this paragraph into your EventManager into the same function and that's it. no more files. no import line.

The most difficult things are those onNetMessage things. It' because all features work in simultan multiplayer. even if Human calls another Human in one round. It's great that those things work! I am very glad, that firaxis let it work!
For such features, a "how to do" is really necessary.

hey, Platy: would you have the time for this?

oh I just remember: I did ask for a PAE subforum.... nothing happend yet.... shall I remind them?

 

[platyping]

Time for?

P.S.
Gigapack has 5000+ lines

You should probably take some time to review your codes for old features.
As you code more and more stuff, you learn new ways of doing things, or catch bugs in unexpected situtations never thought of before.
Then when you look back at stuff you coded one year ago, some of them can be coded in new ways which are more efficient or avoid the unexpected situtations.

 

[Skav]

I like the large map, but I think it lacks some expanse of Shara, Nile valley, Arabia, Persia, and Indus valley, so I started making an extended map starting from it. This is close to the area of the "mini" map. I attached a first rough view, I am interested in advice

I also have no idea how the starting positions work for this mod, is there a documentation somewhere, or someone willing to add them when the map is done ?

 

[PlotinusRedux]

Pie,

Of course you can quote me.

You did all this in Python? I just assumed you had DLL changes. I haven't looked at Civ 4 yet, but Civ 5 was pretty lacking in terms of the events it exposed to Python. That's great--it was only because I thought we'd have conflicting DLL changes that I didn't think a modmod would work.

When you say

If the vassal's and the enemy's power is bigger then the power of the hegemon, the vassal can switch flag or gets independend again and helps you against his further hegemon.

by "power", do you mean just population, or does it take military power into account?

In a lot of ways, the vassal system will work better for the Delian league than Civ 5's city states. Civ 5 city state alliances were based on how much they "liked" you, whereas vassalage permits forced allies that don't necessary like you, have the possibility of "revolting", etc. The 18 civ limit would be a bit tight, since most cities will be their own civ, but 30 with that dll should be do-able.

Kien & cool:

I'll take a look at John Day's scenario, thanks for the tip.

 

[PlotinusRedux]

BTW, Keinpferd, if you're really interested in the Peloponnesian War, Donald Kagan has an incredible 4 volume work on it--he's a military historian and a good writer, I really enjoyed it. Also, there's an edition of Thucydides called The Landmark Thucydides that is the original work but with detailed maps of the action every few pages, notes in the margins, etc.

I looked at John's map. It's not bad, but I'd make a lot of changes if I used it as a starting point. I'm really more interested in geo-political and strategic than geographic accuracy--I'd probably shrink NW Greece since it wasn't of great strategic importance in the war, only include the SE coast of Italy, add a bit of Egypt and more of the Black Sea for Athenian grain, merge Athens and the Peraeus since there was never a real chance of taking one without the other due to the long walls and to give Sparta more room to pillage Attica, slash the resources and arable land and insure Athens would start starving without oversea grain, etc.

I probably wouldn't be adding much in the way of general random events, Pie, more highly scripted ones with some randomness but with probabilities based on actions taken in the game. Certainly the fickle Athenian democracy is fertile ground for random events--ostracizing or executing it's great generals, demanding an unwise assault on Syracuse or the people get unhappy, a more than average tendency to rioting due to unhappiness or even the loss of a battle, etc. And it sounds like I'll need to do some work on the vassal system to make revolting a little easier for them, but maybe tied into Athens successes or failures in battle, Spartan aid (gift of a great general?), Athens defeating another city that revolts, etc. Extra slave revolts against Sparta if Athens holds Pylos. Alcibiades could be several random events by himself. And really a number of events that give the player a choice between 2 things each of which has an advantage and a disadvantage at key points in the war. And of course, Persia. Maybe Sparta gets an event allowing them to Medize, as they did near the end of the war, by promising to abandon the Anatolia Greeks to Persia after the war in exchange for a huge diplomatic bonus with Persia making Persian gold much more likely--but with a small chance every turn afterwards that the agreement leaks resulting in a huge diplomatic penalty for Sparta and gain for Athens across the Greek world, especially among the Ionians.