Additional Civilizations (by DJSHenninger)

[DJSHenninger]

Suddenly wishing I hadn't already started a game with the Seljuks as an AI :<

BTW, what is the stability level on the Sasanians, Kazakhs, and Algeria? They're marked as beta but you seem to talk about them like they're finished.

They're ready but the BETA thing means that it wasn't tested for balance well enough. I should probably remove it if people think it's not finished yet.

If you do that, Northumbria's probably your best bet. If you get someone to do the art for you, which probably won't be that hard, maybe the Welsh split? I'd love to watch people play as Gwynedd and Deheubarth versus CC's Wales... =]

I was thinking of Northumbria as well I want to make the art myself, though

 

[Scapegrace]

Ah, d'accord. I think the following image would be the best for the Civ Icon, though I can't do much about the colours beyond suggesting an old-gold sort of shade and possibly darkening the red a bit.

Spoiler :

Beyond that, I can't help much. I'm words, not art. =]

 

[DJSHenninger]

Ah, d'accord. I think the following image would be the best for the Civ Icon, though I can't do much about the colours beyond suggesting an old-gold sort of shade and possibly darkening the red a bit.

Spoiler :

Beyond that, I can't help much. I'm words, not art. =]

A bit late, but thanks I don't suppose there are other colours associated with Northumbria? In the meantime, I made an icon out of the only good depiction of a Northumbrian king I could find:

Spoiler :

I think I'll call him 'Aldfrith' It's supposed to be 'Ecgberht', but I don't think anyone knows how he looked like.

 

[Scapegrace]

Fantastic icon! Alas, I couldn't find any other colours associated with the kingdom itself - indeed, the colours I used are actually from the coat of arms of the county of Northumberland, which came considerably later. The problem with this stuff is that it generally adheres to the Rule of Tincture, which means you've got a colour palette of precisely seven, one of which (sable, aka. black) we can't use here for obvious reasons. Like I said, I can only offer suggestions about shading. Maybe use a maroon instead of the red, and a more muted, goldish sort of colour for the yellow? Iunno. Dumbgrace is dumb. =]

 

[DJSHenninger]

Fantastic icon! Alas, I couldn't find any other colours associated with the kingdom itself - indeed, the colours I used are actually from the coat of arms of the county of Northumberland, which came considerably later. The problem with this stuff is that it generally adheres to the Rule of Tincture, which means you've got a colour palette of precisely seven, one of which (sable, aka. black) we can't use here for obvious reasons. Like I said, I can only offer suggestions about shading. Maybe use a maroon instead of the red, and a more muted, goldish sort of colour for the yellow? Iunno. Dumbgrace is dumb. =]

Thanks. I made this icon for the civ:

Spoiler :

I also made another version of the leader icon. I thought this one was better somehow:

Spoiler :

And I made these icons, supposed to be a High Cross and Thegn respectively:

Spoiler :

Although I'm not sure about the Thegn. The website said it was a 'Northumbrian Warrior' and it looked like a 'Thegn' or 'Thane' found on another website
Couldn't find anything about a 'North-Harrier' you suggested, only the 'Harrying of the North' I have absolutely no idea what kind of effects I should give Northumbria, but at least I have all the uniques

 

[Scapegrace]

Well, yeah, that was what I was referencing. It's just such an important part of the history of northern England - basically a last hurrah by the kingdom of Northumbria that was brutally quashed by the Norman invaders - that talking about it was a necessity. It just happened to fit as a Knight replacement, since the Normans were incredibly effective users of cavalry while the Saxons and Vikings, er, weren't. Yeah.

In retrospect, I could and should have made this clearer. Sorry.

Anyway, I really love the new icons! I think the High Cross looks amazing; really imposing and ancient-feeling. =]

 

[Maklohi Vai]

Thanks. I made this icon for the civ:

Spoiler :

I also made another version of the leader icon. I thought this one was better somehow:

Spoiler :

And I made these icons, supposed to be a High Cross and Thegn respectively:

Spoiler :

Although I'm not sure about the Thegn. The website said it was a 'Northumbrian Warrior' and it looked like a 'Thegn' or 'Thane' found on another website
Couldn't find anything about a 'North-Harrier' you suggested, only the 'Harrying of the North' I have absolutely no idea what kind of effects I should give Northumbria, but at least I have all the uniques

For the UA, I'd recommend something to do with religious learning, perhaps giving science producing buildings or Scientist specialists a faith boost. You could also give a Scientist specialist to faith buildings. There could also be an argument for having an intersection of religion and the arts, and therefore have some faith bonus given to Great Works or to cultural buildings.

When it comes to the Thegn, I almost included it as a UU for my Iceland conceptualization but ended up deciding against it. When prompted for an older version of Iceland, I included it and came up with this:
UU: Thegn. Replaces Knight. Acts as a Melee unit rather than a Mounted Unit. Does not require Horses. +25% Combat Strength in friendly territory.

As for the High Cross, I'm guessing it replaces the Temple, but I'm not sure. It could also be argued that it would be a UI. The icon you've made, however, is more consistent with the former, so I'm going with that. Ideally there'd be some sort of cultural boost; I might suggest a culture boost to all Great Works housed in the city, or a culture boost to the building itself. Now, the earlier Northumbrian Great Crosses were also used as sundials, if I'm not mistaken, so you could consider a food or growth bonus as well. This would work much better if it was a UI, but if you wanted to have this effect with a UB, you could add +1 food to all farms adjacent to the city.

I hope this isn't uncalled for and can be useful to your further development. I'm looking forward to this civ!

 

[DJSHenninger]

@Scapegrace Ok, now it makes more sense And thanks
@Maklohi Vai Thanks for your suggestions! I was thinking of a religion-cultural mix as well; something with Insular Art perhaps. But a religious-scientific mix is also interesting, especially because I don't have a lot of scientific civs yet. Your Thegn suggestion is interesting, but what is the benefit of it replacing the Knight? Does it get the same promotions, movement points etc? I had the same idea for the Kazakhs but I scrapped it.
I was thinking of the High Cross as a UI as well, but I as far as I know, there's no compatible graphic available. Since I have quite a few of Temple replacements already, I wanted it to replace something not-so-obvious such as .. Stone Works? Still have to think about this
Anyway, your suggestions are helpful

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

Beautiful icons for Northumbria! They look brilliant.

 

[DJSHenninger]

Beautiful icons for Northumbria! They look brilliant.

Thanks

 

[Scapegrace]

Okay, here's my ideas for this.

Kingdom of Northumbria (Aldfrith)
Start Bias: Grassland
Capital: Durham
UA: Haliwerfolc
+1 Faith in the Capital for each allied City-State. Cities with a Land Unit garrisoned inside them gain a +33% Production bonus towards Land Units.
UU: Thegn (replaces Horseman)
-1 Movement, but does not require Horses and does not count as a Mounted Unit. Starts with a unique promotion, "Corporax Banner", that grants a +15% Combat Bonus to every friendly unit within one hex.
UB: High Cross (replaces Amphitheatre)
+2 Culture. Contains unfilled slots for both a Great Work of Art and a Great Work of Writing. When both are filled, generate +2 Faith for each building in the City that increases the Experience of Units trained within it.

EDIT: Okay, some explanations are needed. The UA name is the term "haliwerfolc", which was taken by the people of the County Palatine of Durham to represent both their English (rather than Norman) heritage and to bolster their connection with St. Cuthbert, who was purportedly given vast tracts of land (not like that) after being appointed Bishop of Lindisfarne. The Thegn's name origins we know about already, but the promotion name comes from the Battle of Neville's Cross, just prior to which the Prior of Durham Abbey purportedly received a vision of St. Cuthbert demanding him to take his corporax cloak, a relic of his, and tie it to a spear-point to function as a banner. It seemed to work, since they kicked nine kinds of hell out of the invading Scots, and they reported being "protected by the mediation of the holy St. Cuthbert". Thus it seemed only fitting to give it a mini-Great General effect, to restore some dignity to the much-maligned Horseman. Lastly, the High Crosses are pretty much everywhere, featuring scenes from the lives of the saints intricately carved into them. This just screams Culture Building at me, but there are already a lot of Monument replacements, so I plumped for the Amphitheatre instead. This way, it can indirectly bolster the offensive nature of this Civ by encouraging Barracks, Armouries, Military Academies, and so on.

Hope this is useful! =]

 

[Maklohi Vai]

@Maklohi Vai Thanks for your suggestions! I was thinking of a religion-cultural mix as well; something with Insular Art perhaps. But a religious-scientific mix is also interesting, especially because I don't have a lot of scientific civs yet. Your Thegn suggestion is interesting, but what is the benefit of it replacing the Knight? Does it get the same promotions, movement points etc? I had the same idea for the Kazakhs but I scrapped it.

The Thegn is only realistically a Knight replacement. They came about in the age of Chivalry, they were vassals to a more powerful monarch or noble, and they held their own plots of land. These traits are all indicative of the stereotypical knight. Scapegrace's -1 :civ5moves: movement suggestion is a good one, and probably makes the most sense considering what resources with which the Thegn made war (no horse requirement fits this too). The question, therefore, is to keep it as a Mounted Unit without Horses or to make it a melee unit. Because the upgrade path for Mounted and Melee units is the same at lower levels, I don't see how it would be much of a disadvantage to not have it be a Mounted Unit. That said, the argument for keeping it in the Mounted class is a viable one and by no means is completely out of line.

I was thinking of the High Cross as a UI as well, but I as far as I know, there's no compatible graphic available. Since I have quite a few of Temple replacements already, I wanted it to replace something not-so-obvious such as .. Stone Works? Still have to think about this
Anyway, your suggestions are helpful

Graphics certainly are a big issue for UIs, which is unfortunate. The High Cross is primarily a faith structure but with heavy cultural elements. I partially disagree with Scapegrace here, as I think Faith should be the base yield of the High Cross with culture coming later or as a product of something else. His suggestion for an experience boost is complicated but definitely plausible. I might suggest a middle ground looking like this:
UB: High Cross. Replaces Amphitheatre. +2 faith. Contains a slot for a Great Work of Art in addition to a Great Work of Writing. When both slots are filled, Units trained in the City start with +15 Experience

 

[Scapegrace]

Well, that and both the Vikings and Saxons never really used horses for much other than beasts of burden; something that made them rather different (and rather vulnerable to) the Norman milites who were highly effective cavalrymen. It also feels right for a Horseman rather than a Knight, since it was only after the Thegns stopped being a thing that cavalry use really became prevalent in British warfare - and since knights were largely noble landowners, it's thematically appropriate that the Thegns become Knights with attendant retinues rather than replace them. A Thegn, lest we forget, is a pre-Norman Conquest noble; the entire concept of chivalry in the conventional sense, the one that led to the formation of knightly orders and the raising of knights and men-at-arms in service to Insert King Here, came into being so far after the Kingdom was overrun by the Normans that it's almost funny. That's why I went for Horseman rather than Knight. Also, Horsemen do not get enough love. Except from Alexander. Who, as we're all aware, is a colossal git. Oh, and the reason I specified that it wasn't a Mounted unit was because they, er, didn't use horses, and so it wouldn't make much sense for them to suffer the Combat Penalty when attacking Spearmen, Pikemen, and so on.

As for the High Cross, yeah, I think your way's better. However, since it's pretty difficult to fill slots like that, it might be worth generating additional faith as well as increasing the experience... though, that said, it's basically a National Epic that can be built multiple times, so boosting it further might be a little imbalanced.

Hope this was all useful, DJ! =]

 

[Maklohi Vai]

Well, that and both the Vikings and Saxons never really used horses for much other than beasts of burden; something that made them rather different (and rather vulnerable to) the Norman milites who were highly effective cavalrymen. It also feels right for a Horseman rather than a Knight, since it was only after the Thegns stopped being a thing that cavalry use really became prevalent in British warfare - and since knights were largely noble landowners, it's thematically appropriate that the Thegns become Knights with attendant retinues rather than replace them. A Thegn, lest we forget, is a pre-Norman Conquest noble; the entire concept of chivalry in the conventional sense, the one that led to the formation of knightly orders and the raising of knights and men-at-arms in service to Insert King Here, came into being so far after the Kingdom was overrun by the Normans that it's almost funny. That's why I went for Horseman rather than Knight. Also, Horsemen do not get enough love. Except from Alexander. Who, as we're all aware, is a colossal git. Oh, and the reason I specified that it wasn't a Mounted unit was because they, er, didn't use horses, and so it wouldn't make much sense for them to suffer the Combat Penalty when attacking Spearmen, Pikemen, and so on.

I hadn't thought of it that way; it's quite interesting. I suppose that if you were to make it a Horseman replacement, though, you should at least give it a small strength boost, considering how a Thegn's weaponry was likely better than the plain Horseman envisioned by the game, whether that be on a Steppe or Great Plains basis.

As for the High Cross, yeah, I think your way's better. However, since it's pretty difficult to fill slots like that, it might be worth generating additional faith as well as increasing the experience... though, that said, it's basically a National Epic that can be built multiple times, so boosting it further might be a little imbalanced.

I was thinking of this in context of Leugi's Mexico under Benito Juarez, where the UA gives Walls a free Great Work of Art slot which, when filled, grants +15 experience as well. The reason I made it two Great Works to get the same bonus is because of the faith boost given to the buildings, and because the Valiants of Chapultepec as a UA concept fits much more closely with realism.

 

[DJSHenninger]

Thanks both for your suggestions, I'll definitely consider your suggestions, especially your suggestions for the Thegn. Scapegrace's trait suggestion sounds fun too, shouldn't be too hard to code I'll probably end up with a bit of my own ideas, though. I think the grant-exp-when-slot-is-filled thing is a bit not-very-unique since the Library thing of Assyria has it as well xD (of course it's not exactly the same). Still need to finish the art. I don't suppose any of you could direct me to an appropriate map? (A map of Aldfrith's realm would be ideal) Most maps are vague without borders, as far as I can find.

EDIT: I found this map. Could those boundaries be correct?

 

[Maklohi Vai]

Thanks both for your suggestions, I'll definitely consider your suggestions, especially your suggestions for the Thegn. Scapegrace's trait suggestion sounds fun too, shouldn't be too hard to code I'll probably end up with a bit of my own ideas, though. I think the grant-exp-when-slot-is-filled thing is a bit not-very-unique since the Library thing of Assyria has it as well xD (of course it's not exactly the same). Still need to finish the art. I don't suppose any of you could direct me to an appropriate map? (A map of Aldfrith's realm would be ideal) Most maps are vague without borders, as far as I can find.

EDIT: I found this map. Could those boundaries be correct?

You're welcome! And yes, those boundaries seem to be correct.

 

[DJSHenninger]

You're welcome! And yes, those boundaries seem to be correct.

Made a map using that image!

Spoiler :

Now I can start with coding etc! I will need some kind of city list. I read that Northumbria had two Capitals, for instance (probably because of Deira and Bernicia). I'd be grateful if anyone can help me with a Northumbrian city list

 

[ldvhl]

I got some cities right here:

Spoiler :

1. Bamburgh
2. York
3. Durham
4. Newminster
5. Ainwick
6. Brinkburn
7. Hulne
8. Blanchland
9. Harbottle
10. Prudhoe
11. Warkworth
12. Chillingham
13. Ford
14. Dunstanburgh
15. Morpeth
16. Langley
17. Wark
18. Norham
19. Redesdale
20. Coquetdale
21. Tynedale

 

[DJSHenninger]

I got some cities right here:

Spoiler :

1. Bamburgh
2. York
3. Durham
4. Newminster
5. Ainwick
6. Brinkburn
7. Hulne
8. Blanchland
9. Harbottle
10. Prudhoe
11. Warkworth
12. Chillingham
13. Ford
14. Dunstanburgh
15. Morpeth
16. Langley
17. Wark
18. Norham
19. Redesdale
20. Coquetdale
21. Tynedale

Nice! Since I'm focusing on the Kingdom of Northumbria, I assume those Cities are from that period? You'll receive credit, of course. I'm content with ca. 25-30 names, although more is always welcome.

 

[Scapegrace]

Well, York's the obvious choice for the capital, but here's the city list I've come up with in order. Ahem:-

Jorvik (to avoid conflict with York)
Durham
Newcastle
Lindisfarne
Leeds
Bradford
Wakefield
Middlesborough
Jarrow
Harrogate
Scarborough
Morpeth
Redcar
Prudhoe
Alnwick
Bridlington
Skegness
Monkwearmouth
Hexham

Twenty should be enough to be going on with, right? =]

EDIT: I take too long to write these things. Also, Bamburgh's a bit far north for the Kingdom of Northumbria, what with it being in frellin' Scotland. =]