Reform of 'PDMA' Guidelines and Establishment of Public Appeal Thread/Forum

[Double A]

tl;dr: I'm still waiting to see any real argument against having more openness around moderators and their decisions.

You mean aside from "Then let them eat cake?"

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

It would be sad if the PDMA issue is simply left to fade into the background without being resolved, as it will inevitably flare up again. I understand we have no way of knowing what is or isn't being discussed right now - and we were surprised by some positive changes made in what remains of CFC NES forum - but I also gather that excuse has been used as a smokescreen in the past, so you can understand the scepticism.

Many forumers are now into their 20's or, in my case, early 30's. Some of us have invested hundreds - thousands - tens of thousands - of hours on this site. On the rare occasions that disputes arise, we resent being treated as unruly teenagers, or even worse.

NESers were from the Civ 3-5 generations that wanted more than just Civ-related threads. They were active on many other parts of the site and had tens of thousands of posts between them. And now most of them are gone for good.

The way things are going, I think CFC is going to keep loosing these more mature, creative types from the forum...

My thoughts too. A lot of us here are highly educated people with careers and we do not need to suffer bad attitude from volunteers.

The mods have to decide if this is an issue for them or not. I guess it depends if they can count on getting enough new traffic from every new civ-related game release.

They better hope CivBE is a success.

Well indeed, that is what has happened in this case. About 2/3 of the NES community is now posting on The Frontier, though its having a slow start in terms of actual games. Meanwhile the CFC NES forum is at less than 1/2 of its previous activity. I can name at least one person from this thread, who has sadly decided to leave the community altogether.

ACG is an interesting site, I know other NESers have looked at it or been active there. I will bear that in mind

Interesting. I will definitely check The Frontier out. I hope you guys can reconstitute your community there and that will be example for other disenfanchised forumites to follow.

ACG does appear to encompass all the major subjects that CFC covers. Definitely should consider that.

 

[JollyRoger]

Private discussion with moderators does eventually work, even for sarcastic jackwagons like myself.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Perhaps if the moderator and the infractee can resolve the issue to their mutual satisfaction, there is no need for others' involvement? Immediately escalating every "hey, why did you infract me" PM to a SuperMod review panel is unlikely to be a good use of everyone's limited time and attention.

The standard infraction notice makes no mention of an appeals process, so an infractee must either ask the moderator how to appeal (assuming they know such a right exists) or rummage through the site rules themselves to find the process. Revising the standard infraction notice to include a link to the portion of the site rules describing the appeal process might help folks understand the current process and make utilizing that process a bit easier/less obscure.

This is a very good idea.

My thoughts too. A lot of us here are highly educated people with careers and we do not need to suffer bad attitude from volunteers.

Whoa. A lot of the staff here - past and present - have been/are highly educated people with careers, who gave/are giving some of their non-working personal time to perform a service for this community.

As I said to someone who, in RL, tried to belittle the volunteer job I had at the time (working at a wildlife sanctuary in the bookstore and giving astronomy talks to the public), there is nothing "just" about being a volunteer.

That said, bad attitude is not acceptable. But it's also bad attitude to denigrate people because they're not being paid money to serve the community. As a volunteer poster (you're not being paid money to post here, nor has Thunderfall required you to pay any fees to do so), this should be obvious.

 

[JollyRoger]

I would like to publically thank Valka. In her time as a moderator, she pm'ed me before rushing to issue an infraction to get an explanation of the post in question. Very rare, but very courteous.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

You are welcome, Jolly, and I really appreciate knowing that it mattered to you.

Folks, please let the moderators know when you think they've done something right. The incident Jolly refers to happened years ago, and I didn't know until very recently that it made a difference to him. It makes my day to know that my action was appreciated.

When moderating - on any forum - it's not always clear if what the moderator thinks the poster means really is what the poster means. Taking the time to ask can mean the difference between quickly clearing up a misunderstanding (and the post can be revised if necessary) and arbitrarily giving a possibly-undeserved infraction that can lead to arguments and ill-will and the perception that the moderators are closed-minded and don't care.

After all, a civil forum we can all enjoy is the real goal, right?

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

The standard infraction notice makes no mention of an appeals process, so an infractee must either ask the moderator how to appeal (assuming they know such a right exists) or rummage through the site rules themselves to find the process. Revising the standard infraction notice to include a link to the portion of the site rules describing the appeal process might help folks understand the current process and make utilizing that process a bit easier/less obscure.

Been working on that but it has turned out to be ridiculously difficult from a technical standpoint. Apparently this is a "standard phrase" with the software that can only be edited by directly accessing a file on the server, which we have "locked Down" from remote access for security purposes. Chieftess and ainwood each tried but did not succeed in accessing the message. All you get when trying to use the UBB admin panel to try to edit it is a blank page. ainwood is going to try tricking it with a more accessible function, translating it into another language, editing the translation, then translating it back to English.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Whoa. A lot of the staff here - past and present - have been/are highly educated people with careers, who gave/are giving some of their non-working personal time to perform a service for this community.

As I said to someone who, in RL, tried to belittle the volunteer job I had at the time (working at a wildlife sanctuary in the bookstore and giving astronomy talks to the public), there is nothing "just" about being a volunteer.

That said, bad attitude is not acceptable. But it's also bad attitude to denigrate people because they're not being paid money to serve the community. As a volunteer poster (you're not being paid money to post here, nor has Thunderfall required you to pay any fees to do so), this should be obvious.

You see, all I mentioned is that we do not need to suffer bad attitude from volunteers and that already got you all defensive and accusing me of "denigrating" volunteers. This sort of gross over-reaction is consistent with the experience reported by others here, except they were also sanctioned because (according to them) the moderators did not want to talk this out.

When moderating - on any forum - it's not always clear if what the moderator thinks the poster means really is what the poster means. Taking the time to ask can mean the difference between quickly clearing up a misunderstanding (and the post can be revised if necessary) and arbitrarily giving a possibly-undeserved infraction that can lead to arguments and ill-will and the perception that the moderators are closed-minded and don't care.

This sounds fair. It will be greatly appreciated if you can help us convince your former colleagues to stop with the shoot-first-ask-later attitude. But of course, PDMA still needs to be revised because all it does is to protect bad behaviour from bad volunteers.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

You see, all I mentioned is that we do not need to suffer bad attitude from volunteers and that already got you all defensive and accusing me of "denigrating" volunteers. This sort of gross over-reaction is consistent with the experience reported by others here, except they were also sanctioned because (according to them) the moderators did not want to talk this out.

I will remind you of what you said:

A lot of us here are highly educated people with careers and we do not need to suffer bad attitude from volunteers.

Implication: The regular members are highly educated people with careers and the people who moderate this forum are not. They're just volunteers. As in not paid, so are deserving of less respect.

I'm not saying the moderators are perfect. Nobody on this site is perfect. And nobody needs to suffer a "bad attitude" from the staff (the reverse is also true).

Moderators differ in their approach and attitudes. I never forgot how I felt as a regular member when I would ask for an explanation of something and get nothing back except a copy/pasted link to a FAQ that was sometimes years out of date and didn't answer my question anyway. It feels like being told, "I don't respect you enough to talk to you like a real grownup person. Read the FAQ and go away." That part has improved somewhat since then, but I fully agree that there needs to be greater aware of both the appeals procedure and the possibility of mediation.

This sounds fair. It will be greatly appreciated if you can help us convince your former colleagues to stop with the shoot-first-ask-later attitude. But of course, PDMA still needs to be revised because all it does is to protect bad behaviour from bad volunteers.

Please realize that there are people around this site who volunteer without being moderators. For example, the people who set up and run the NES activities are volunteering their efforts to create and set up the initial scenario for an interactive story, are they not? Or have I completely misunderstood what NES is? Like with RPGs where the DM does the initial work in creating the background for the adventure and guides the players through it, it can take a lot of time and creative effort that is voluntary.

So if you intend to complain about the moderators, complain about them, but don't complain about the fact that they're volunteers. I'm not a fan of the "ELITISM!!!!" cry around here, but frankly, your continued stressing of the word "volunteers" does sound elitist.

Would you prefer bad attitude from people who are paid? Personally, I don't.

 

[awesome]

also, something i forgot to mention last time i popped into this forum: this thread is the first time that i ever heard anything about an appeals process on these forums. might want to have that be a bit more prominent.

 

[ori]

there is actually a whole separated post/section on this in the Forum Rules - of course there could be a sticky on appeals process itself (which would promptly be ignored by most everyone as sticky threads are the place were any topic goes to wither and die in my experience). But if the second post in the Full Rules (which can be accessed from everywhere by clicking on the forum rules link present on every page) is too inconspicuous I don't actually see any other posting place visible to everyone to be more conspicuous as Site Feedback were it would by necessity reside is not a very well traveled part of the forum - that said there are attempts at incorporating a link to it into the infraction notice itself, but apparently that turns out to be more difficult to modify than one would expect, though I believe that that is going to be solved soon.

 

[awesome]

might i suggest making the forum rules thread a global sticky, or just giving it it's own link at the top of the page (as opposed to putting it in a "community" drop down menu and at the very bottom of the page in the fine print section)?

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

If we cannot get the link into the automatic infraction text, then will will likely make some sort of sticky or announcement in this subforum to make it more prominent.

Adding a rules link directly to the bar at the top instead of drop down is clearly a good idea.

 

[Takhisis]

Maybe… just maybe… we could abolish infractions altogether. No infractions, no complaints. A new system in which troublesome posters might suffer… peculiar demises might work.

 

[Double A]

Maybe… just maybe… we could abolish infractions altogether. No infractions, no complaints. A new system in which troublesome posters might suffer… peculiar demises might work.

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Unfortunate_accident

 

[Sonereal]

ADMIN ANNOUNCEMENT: Anybody else hear what happened to that one guy? What a shame, eh?

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

I will remind you of what you said:


Implication: The regular members are highly educated people with careers and the people who moderate this forum are not. They're just volunteers. As in not paid, so are deserving of less respect.

So if you intend to complain about the moderators, complain about them, but don't complain about the fact that they're volunteers. I'm not a fan of the "ELITISM!!!!" cry around here, but frankly, your continued stressing of the word "volunteers" does sound elitist.

Again, you are the only one here who's obsessed with the word volunteer. I used the term in that sentence because it is an accurate description of what moderators are and it is useful to remind everyone that they aren't some god-like beings who deserve to mistreat us as if we are some dirty peasants.

So yes, elitism is indeed the question here because it is felt that some moderators think they know so much better than us that it is an UNSPEAKABLE CRIME for us DARING to QUESTION their ALMIGHTY wisdom (or lack of, rather).

I hope I've sufficiently cleared up my position to your satisfaction.

I'm not saying the moderators are perfect. Nobody on this site is perfect. And nobody needs to suffer a "bad attitude" from the staff

Now that we are done with the question of volunteers, I am going have to ask you why you wrapped bad attitude in quotes there.

Is it you telling us that your peers actually did no wrong and that we are just crying like babies? Just reading between the lines here for a bit.

And yes, nobody in this world is perfect. Rob Ford's not perfect, Allison Redford's not perfect, and Stephen Harper's not perfect. Now, let us all just overlook their shortcomings and let them do whatever because nobody's perfect in this world. Problem solved.

Maybe… just maybe… we could abolish infractions altogether. No infractions, no complaints. A new system in which troublesome posters might suffer… peculiar demises might work.

Infractions are fine. Given their attitude so far though, I don't think they will be very receptive to changes of this kind anyway.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Again, you are the only one here who's obsessed with the word volunteer. I used the term in that sentence because it is an accurate description of what moderators are and it is useful to remind everyone that they aren't some god-like beings who deserve to mistreat us as if we are some dirty peasants.

So yes, elitism is indeed the question here because it is felt that some moderators think they know so much better than us that it is an UNSPEAKABLE CRIME for us DARING to QUESTION their ALMIGHTY wisdom (or lack of, rather).

I hope I've sufficiently cleared up my position to your satisfaction.

Now that we are done with the question of volunteers, I am going have to ask you why you wrapped bad attitude in quotes there.

Is it you telling us that your peers actually did no wrong and that we are just crying like babies? Just reading between the lines here for a bit.

And yes, nobody in this world is perfect. Rob Ford's not perfect, Allison Redford's not perfect, and Stephen Harper's not perfect. Now, let us all just overlook their shortcomings and let them do whatever because nobody's perfect in this world. Problem solved.

No, you're the one continually pointing out that the staff here are volunteers, like that's a bad thing. Would you take an infraction better if the person issuing it were being paid?

Of course they're not god-like. I never said they were, and never considered myself so, during my time. Nor am I saying mistakes were never made. I reversed some infractions, downgraded some, and apologized to the members affected when I made mistakes.

If you have some objection to how a particular moderator is treating you, take it up with that person, or perhaps higher up if the first step doesn't work. There's nothing I can do about it.

As for your litany of disgraced/ful Canadian politicians, there is a process that lets them be held accountable. Are you suggesting we elect moderators and admins here, and vote or shame them out of office if they mess up?

 

[Kyriakos]

While debating infractions is something that does happen and will continue as well, ultimately (in my view) it is pretty pointless. Why care if you are infracted in a non-permanent way in a web-forum? I mean even if you are banned you can still post under another username (i suppose some have done that anyway), and it is not like it's a good idea to think your forum existence is of actual importance in your life. I can be a bit more sympathetic when people (again falsely feeling that way) at least had produced stuff for those forums, eg graphics, animations and so on. But the forum is not theirs anyway, so there's nothing to bother with here.

Saying this as someone who had bothered a lot in bygone years with infractions/reporting/discussing with mods etc. It seems self-defeating and a vicious circle. No one really cares if they are not self-destructive and thus seeing a web-forum posting account/name as integral to their being.

 

[Luckymoose]

While debating infractions is something that does happen and will continue as well, ultimately (in my view) it is pretty pointless. Why care if you are infracted in a non-permanent way in a web-forum? I mean even if you are banned you can still post under another username (i suppose some have done that anyway), and it is not like it's a good idea to think your forum existence is of actual importance in your life. I can be a bit more sympathetic when people (again falsely feeling that way) at least had produced stuff for those forums, eg graphics, animations and so on. But the forum is not theirs anyway, so there's nothing to bother with here.

Saying this as someone who had bothered a lot in bygone years with infractions/reporting/discussing with mods etc. It seems self-defeating and a vicious circle. No one really cares if they are not self-destructive and thus seeing a web-forum posting account/name as integral to their being.

1. Some of us are infracted in a permanent way.

2. Some of us use the forums for more than posting in OT, and thus had community ties and a lot of content hosted here in the form of graphics, writing, etc.

3. Socializing online can be just as important as offline. To say otherwise is to ignore the reality of the human condition and modern technology. You can, and should, be making real friendships with people online. What's the point if not?