G-Major LIV

[chuckh89]

I should maybe tell you that my best SS finishes are with an uncommon strategy. No Liberty - straight piety means earlier faith buildings generating more faith and faster SS and I don't waste 300 faith to enhance my religion, I use the Great Prophet from finishing piety.

I agree that you don't want to have a faith NW in the capital. Its job is to produce settlers. We want the faith NW in the 2nd city.

Lets say we hit SS on turn 65 with 5 faith buildings giving us 10 tpt and get another one every 3rd turn. With 8 cities we will hit 32 tpt on turn 98 and have generated 693 tourism by then. That would be 757 tourism by turn 100.

We wouldn't quite get 40-50 fpt on turn 65, but soon after. For example 12 fpt from NW and 5 cities with faith building, shrine and temple would be 6 fpt per city giving us 40-50 fpt around turn 70.

Edit: on turn 98 we would generate 8 * (2+2+2+3) + 12 = 84 faith per turn, giving us an additional 2 tpt every 2nd turn if we could get more cities.
Edit 2: fixed calculation

Makes sense, and you can make a good run at it, BUT IMHO the only way to Metal with a SS Strategy is to have a Capital with diversity (Which is pretty rare if you include a wonder), and Uluru is probably required since the other wonders with high yield do not have attached.

Most metaled gauntlets I have investigated:
Have Uluru
Play the left liberty chain to pump out settlers, then play Piety to chain to SS
Then Back to Right Liberty Chain for the GM closer.

Vadalaz Strategy is going to win this Gauntlet anyway,...the question is??,...can anyone do it better than he can?....

 

[bostich]

Food is quite useless imo. The size 3 or 4 capital is working 3-4 hills producing settlers and all other cities are size 1 working hills. We will be at negative happiness anyway so our cities won't grow anyway.

 

[chuckh89]

Food is quite useless imo. The size 3 or 4 capital is working 3-4 hills producing settlers and all other cities are size 1 working hills. We will be at negative happiness anyway so our cities won't grow anyway.

It is important for a great start,

If you have Uluru, you can start generating faith from turn one,...and ride it until you find a population ruin, or grow to 2 population from working it, and then KEEP it locked in....The sooner you get to religion the better...Right?

If you have Kailish or Sinai locked in with 1 population=Stagnation.

OR, you use a tile until you grow to 2 population, then you didn't produce any for your opening turns.

It is important to get to Religion as quickly as possible,....Do you need a Huge Capital ,..Of course not! But, you want it larger than 1 population without delaying your religion....Right?!

Is it Essential....NO, But if I had the ability to design my Capital it would definitely be included, And it is not a coincidence that it was the centerpiece in Glory 7's Capital for the last Major SS win.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=529013

 

[vadalaz]

Just had a t115 SS game, Grand Mesa in capital and Sinai in 2nd city. Influential with 5 out of 7 at t102 but unfortunately in no position to kill, send a trade route or a missionary to the other two, as I was boxed in between 4 AIs that kept DoWing.

I do think the fastest SS approach on this map is to look for a NW with your initial settler&warrior, settle next to it and then hope to have a second one nearby, and one of them has to be a faith NW, else reroll. Pure luck really. Sub-110 can be achieved like that, sub-100 seems unlikely though, maybe if you get something silly like Eldorado and two faith NWs.

This requires even more rerolls than the 100 tourism liberty games though, so that's not too fun.

 

[Manpanzee]

I think going all the way to Collective Rule may be unnecessary for the Sacred Sites strategy. I would be interested in trying two in Liberty (opener and then Republic) and then into Piety. This gives you faster Reformation than traditional Lib/Piety, while also getting some more basic infrastructure bonuses than straight Piety.

Also, the AI should absolutely be weak enough at this level that warmongering a bit will be better than pure peaceful SS. It only takes a handful of units to be able to demand tributes, pillage stuff, and keep the leading culture AIs hamstrung. It basically doesn't take any more than you would want anyway for going around fighting barbs/doing quests.

 

[fils]

The capital definitely does not need to grow past size 4 or so, and hopefully you will find a pop ruin for one of those. In most games, food dictates research rate, but here the only tech you really need is Philosophy. The rest are mostly irrelevant, thus making food irrelevant. It's actually better to keep your new cities at size 1 for as long as possible for faster religion spread. Ideal spot to settle (if you have no pantheon faith generating city sites left of course) is on a hill, with access to another 2 production tile to work. I would only grow a couple expansions to size 2 if they have sheep nearby or something like that.

I wouldn't put any points in Liberty at all. That delays SS too much, and it also really delays Piety finisher which is definitely a good idea to use to enhance religion or even plant for a nice culture/faith/gold tile. I like that strat a lot - I forgot about the GP you get from it. It does put a lot of pressure on your culture though. I like to open 1/2 price shrine and temple in all my expansions, so it could take a while to get those monuments up.

Other problem with using the Piety finisher GP to enhance is that if you pick pious opponents, there is a high chance that someone takes Mosques/Pagodas before you finish Piety. If you don't pick pious opponents, then they will generate culture faster making it harder for you to win. Kind of a lose-lose there.

You're right about the harassment and tribute demands. That's something I'm really bad at. I'll give this a few more tries with finishing Piety tree for free GP and more warmongering in mind. We'll see how it goes.

 

[Bleidraner]

Here's how I approached it:

- Turn promotion saving on if you haven't. It's allowed in HOF and it helps a lot.
- Look for a solid production start, preferrably middle of the map, but west is ok too. Mining lux and Marble are the best since you want fast Construction.
- First research Archery, then lux tech, then Construction.
- Capital BO: 2x Scout - 2x Archer - (another archer if you get neither a scout upgrade nor enough gold to rush buy one) - Monument - (Shrine if you went Calendar) - Archers/Scouts/Chariot Archers/CBs. The 3 archers and a warrior at the beginning should be enough to conquer a neighbour flatland capital by t30ish. Second city BO is Monument, then units.
- From here go to the next capital and try to demand tributes from CSs on your way there, you'll need gold for archer upgrades. Ideally you want to take down that capital and soon upgrade your archers there.
- Now I like to move the upgraded CB army to the eastern forests (build a chariot or two to catch up to those, and get some scouts too), then build a second army to clean up the flat terrain. As for army strength, 4-6 ranged units, 2-3 scouts and a worker bait worked fine for me.
- Steal AI workers whenever you can. Steal from CSs if you need worker baits and don't happen to have one in your army.
- If an AI expands and you aren't planning to fight that AI in the next 15 turns, DoW them and take their expansion in the peace deal 5 turns later (as long as you're #1 in army score)
- In the end make sure you have Greece surrounded and can take him out in 1-2 turns after he liberates the <100 culture civ

Hope this helps!

Extremely useful thanks Vadalaz. Pretty much all of the above I am not doing, so this will make a difference.

 

[zenmaster]

Here's how I approached it:
- Turn promotion saving on if you haven't. It's allowed in HOF and it helps a lot.

Hi. Quick Question-- Can anyone else confirm this? HoF not letting me in right now for some reason. I was under the impression that options like this one and "resources abundant" and a couple other very obviously advantageous ones were not allowed. If this is true, I should have been doing this long ago .

Edit:

I guess it's true. Just got into HoF settings rules and it only says "Policy Saving" and some others are not allowed. I always thought promotion saving was not allowed either. Seems weird because the promotion saving can be a really advantageous thing sometimes and is not really with the flow of the intended game I think. Well, I guess that's one more setting to always have on...

 

[chuckh89]

Hi. Quick Question-- Can anyone else confirm this? HoF not letting me in right now for some reason. I was under the impression that options like this one and "resources abundant" and a couple other very obviously advantageous ones were not allowed. If this is true, I should have been doing this long ago .

Edit:

I guess it's true.

So the most recent evidence to reassure yourself of what "Is allowed" and "Not allowed" is Peets reply on post #22 of last months Major

The following must not be checked.

Max Turns
Policy Saving
No Barbarians
No Esponiage
New Random Seed
Random Personalities

All the rest is ok.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=534872&page=2

 

[vadalaz]

t111 SS this time, a replay of a t119 game though. Had Uluru in the capital, Kailash and Lake Victoria very close and 4 cultural CS. Insane map.

In the t119 attempt I went pure Piety, and replayed with Lib+Piety. Now I'm thinking I must've just badly misplayed the Piety game... If anyone wants the save for testing purposes, I'll attach it to the post. Uluru is to the south of the start, Kailash to the east and Lake Vic to the west of Uluru.

edit: tried Manpanzee's suggestion (2 in liberty then Piety) and got a t105 victory on that map. Perhaps sub-100 is possible with SS on a crazy map but it'd require a lot of luck... Gonna try to refine my warmongering now and get a sub-100 with the 100 tourism strat.

edit2: aaand improved that by 1 turn by going pure Piety. That was by far the best game with 752 total tourism, more with modifiers.

 

[Bleidraner]

t150 with Vadalaz's Liberty. I obviously need to keep working on my war skills, took 45 turns to kill the last 2 AIs (Alex and Enrico) both sitting in the Eastern forests, and Enrico surrounded by Alex's cities. In the future, I need to prioritize the Eastern forests AIs with an army just for them. Alex liberated Lisbon, as advertised, and the 100 tourism was enough to win the game.
Tremendous improvement in the war thanks to Vadalaz's advice, at least I managed to finish the game and I think I have a pretty good idea of what I need to do better to improve next time. Promo saving was very useful, but the tribute was what made the biggest difference. The worker baits were essential too. Pity I did not follow through and cleaned up the Eastern forests after I killed the second AI, I turned back and cleaned the rest of the northern plains, and had to move back the army as the second army I built was not enough to kill Enrico and keep Alex down. This mistake wasted a gazillion turns.
I don't have a lot of time this month, but I will keep trying to improve this result, and if I get a good map I may also try SS.

Spoiler :

 

[Manpanzee]

First full attempt: Turn 123 Sacred Sites victory. Full Piety, 100% peaceful -- both culture leaders were off in the eastern forest and I was in the southwest corner, so conquest didn't seem feasible.

No faith natural wonders here and I feel like this is about the best I can do without. If I try again I will definitely re-roll for a faith NW. I had a decent Desert Folklore start and decided to play it out after I hit an early Spear ruin. The Spearman allowed me to tribute 4 city-states, giving me enough gold to buy a Settler very early. I walked a bit and settled King Solomon's mines, giving me a handy secondary Settler-production city. Ended up with 16 cities and five happiness to spare.

I selected mostly warmongers for opponents, in the hopes that they would all go Honor. Enemy list was America, Byzantium, Denmark, the Huns, Mongolia, the Ottomans, the Zulu. Going forward I would swap out America and Byzantium for Assyria and China.

 

[Manpanzee]

Attempt #2 -- Turn 110 SS victory. Full Piety again. A nice Desert Folklore start with Mt Sinai only four tiles from the capital. I am now convinced that Sub-100 is possible, and I don't think the map needs to be that crazy.

This time, my main barrier was culture. Religion was great but I didn't Reform until turn ~88, at which time I already had 10 faith buildings. My game was hampered significantly by the fact that two of my Scouts got killed by barbarians very early, making it difficult to complete CS quests. I had no culture from city-states until the very end, and just having a single alliance probably could have taken five turns off of victory.

I was also able to conquer a neighbor with ease this time -- in this case it was Mongolia, and he wasn't the culture leader. This was a defensive war that kept my troops occupied enough that I couldn't take out the leader. If the leader was my closest neighbor or I didn't get DOWed when I did, I could have shaved another five turns.

I really like surrounding myself with warmongers. They don't get much culture and you can bribe them easily to try to take out the 1-2 civs that inevitably go Tradition. I will probably continue trying this Gauntlet, as the games are very quick.

 

[zenmaster]

Attempt #2 -- Turn 110 SS victory. Full Piety again. A nice Desert Folklore start with Mt Sinai only four tiles from the capital. I am now convinced that Sub-100 is possible, and I don't think the map needs to be that crazy.

This time, my main barrier was culture. Religion was great but I didn't Reform until turn ~88, at which time I already had 10 faith buildings. My game was hampered significantly by the fact that two of my Scouts got killed by barbarians very early, making it difficult to complete CS quests. I had no culture from city-states until the very end, and just having a single alliance probably could have taken five turns off of victory.

I was also able to conquer a neighbor with ease this time -- in this case it was Mongolia, and he wasn't the culture leader. This was a defensive war that kept my troops occupied enough that I couldn't take out the leader. If the leader was my closest neighbor or I didn't get DOWed when I did, I could have shaved another five turns.

I really like surrounding myself with warmongers. They don't get much culture and you can bribe them easily to try to take out the 1-2 civs that inevitably go Tradition. I will probably continue trying this Gauntlet, as the games are very quick.

Great game!

I have 2 observations and a question:

1) That is an awesome SS finish time for this gauntlet. Lots of cities, incredible faith generation and a conquered neighbor to boot. Hats off to your skill!

2) I will disagree that sub-100 SS is possible without a crazy map. To be honest, I think you underestimate just how good your map was-- Mt. Sinai 4 hexes away and not almost adjacent to a CS? Nice; Assuming people reroll to find nearby faith NW, not gamemaking though-- Corner location for good desert folklore and avoiding multiple DoWs? Again, nice; given rerolls and Arabia's affinity, not totally gamemaking either; What jumped out at me from your map was 2 religious CSes on your doorstep! I'm wagering you got your DFolklore pantheon and thus faith generation up a good 5-10 turns before a pantheon could be achieved without 2 religious CSes. That is huge. I think that is much better than another NW relatively near. actually. Not to take anything away from your excellent play, of course. T110 SS on this gauntlet is blazing fast and hard to match by anyone even with a very good map.

3) Question -- Did you do only 2 Liberty policies before Piety as you surmised in a previous post or did you go down to Collective Rule? Or did you skip Liberty altogether as some are trying? Just curious, as I'm considering avoiding collective rule or all of Liberty in this one. Considering you got to Sacred Sites rather late on this try, would you change things up if you did it again? Just curious.

Again, congrats on a fantastic game!

 

[Manpanzee]

Great game!

I have 2 observations and a question:

1) That is an awesome SS finish time for this gauntlet. Lots of cities, incredible faith generation and a conquered neighbor to boot. Hats off to your skill!

2) I will disagree that sub-100 SS is possible without a crazy map. To be honest, I think you underestimate just how good your map was-- Mt. Sinai 4 hexes away and not almost adjacent to a CS? Nice; Assuming people reroll to find nearby faith NW, not gamemaking though-- Corner location for good desert folklore and avoiding multiple DoWs? Again, nice; given rerolls and Arabia's affinity, not totally gamemaking either; What jumped out at me from your map was 2 religious CSes on your doorstep! I'm wagering you got your DFolklore pantheon and thus faith generation up a good 5-10 turns before a pantheon could be achieved without 2 religious CSes. That is huge. I think that is much better than another NW relatively near. actually. Not to take anything away from your excellent play, of course. T110 SS on this gauntlet is blazing fast and hard to match by anyone even with a very good map.

3) Question -- Did you do only 2 Liberty policies before Piety as you surmised in a previous post or did you go down to Collective Rule? Or did you skip Liberty altogether as some are trying? Just curious, as I'm considering avoiding collective rule or all of Liberty in this one. Considering you got to Sacred Sites rather late on this try, would you change things up if you did it again? Just curious.

Again, congrats on a fantastic game!

2. I actually didn't get a pantheon until I founded the Sinai city (I think this was around turn 20). I found Jerusalem fast but missed Kathmandu, and by the time I got there it had already been met and the first pantheon had been founded, so I only had 12 faith and needed 15. I did manage to get friendly with both CSes early, so they definitely had an impact, but I didn't get the full free pantheon.

3. I did full Piety, no Liberty. Going all the way to Collective Rule definitely isn't necessary. The 2-in-Liberty build has potential but you probably need to have multiple Cultural allies and/or build the Oracle. I think it's worth experimenting with. Hammers were a relatively low priority for me in city locations and many of my cities only had 1-2 hammers, so the extra hammer from Republic is pretty huge.


Also I've noticed people mentioning founder beliefs that aren't Initiation Rites. I believe that Initiation Rites is the only viable choice. The gold payout is simply crazy -- you can buy a lot of Settlers very fast, or you can use it for an army, CS allies, etc.

I think I may have been better served delaying Settler purchases and instead pumping some money into culture city-states. One thing I realized is that religious pressure gets incredibly strong eventually -- I had a new city pick up religion in only one turn. This means that you can found some cities very late and still have time for them to pick up the religion to buy buildings. It's nice to get the cities down for faith generation, but settling later makes policy costs lower and thus allows for faster Reformation. It's an interesting balancing act.

 

[chuckh89]

Great game!

I have 2 observations and a question:

1) That is an awesome SS finish time for this gauntlet. Lots of cities, incredible faith generation and a conquered neighbor to boot. Hats off to your skill!

2) I will disagree that sub-100 SS is possible without a crazy map. To be honest, I think you underestimate just how good your map was-- Mt. Sinai 4 hexes away and not almost adjacent to a CS? Nice; Assuming people reroll to find nearby faith NW, not gamemaking though-- Corner location for good desert folklore and avoiding multiple DoWs? Again, nice; given rerolls and Arabia's affinity, not totally gamemaking either; What jumped out at me from your map was 2 religious CSes on your doorstep! I'm wagering you got your DFolklore pantheon and thus faith generation up a good 5-10 turns before a pantheon could be achieved without 2 religious CSes. That is huge. I think that is much better than another NW relatively near. actually. Not to take anything away from your excellent play, of course. T110 SS on this gauntlet is blazing fast and hard to match by anyone even with a very good map.

3) Question -- Did you do only 2 Liberty policies before Piety as you surmised in a previous post or did you go down to Collective Rule? Or did you skip Liberty altogether as some are trying? Just curious, as I'm considering avoiding collective rule or all of Liberty in this one. Considering you got to Sacred Sites rather late on this try, would you change things up if you did it again? Just curious.

Again, congrats on a fantastic game!

It is not uncommon to roam for a few turns before settling your city, and when you encounter local CS's your always hoping they have a attribute for a early pantheon,...BUT this Gauntlet is not Cooperating!

It is a huge advantage to have you pantheon from the very beginning,...Unfortunately, if I don't settle my city before selecting my Pantheon,...My Game Crashes-Every Time!

I seem to remember selecting my Pantheon before settling my city in the past....Why is it doing it for this Gauntlet....???

Anyone else experiencing this problem??

 

[vadalaz]

t98, 100 tourism strat

Spoiler :

A really strong game can be done in under 90 turns I guess. I'm happy enough with sub-100 though.

 

[TyfoonTurk]

t109, liberty liberation victory

if greece didn't settle sparta somewhere deep in the mountains, i would have beat vadalaz' time. argh!!!

in addition to vadalaz' tips:

- don't forget to pillage! (+25 hp)
- know the map and plan the most optimal route with two armies. civs are always somewhat evenly divided on the map (4 northside and 4 southside). end both routes at greece.
- always dow on everybody. this way they dont focus on culture in the beginning and they will gift you cities.
- disable start bias. more chance to start in the middle, because arabia has a desert bias, which happens on this map in the southwest corner.

 

[bostich]

While I still believe a sub-T100 peaceful win is possible under optimal conditions, I see no chance for a sub-T90 win. Looks like warfare is the way to go here.

 

[Bleidraner]

t98, 100 tourism strat

Spoiler :

A really strong game can be done in under 90 turns I guess. I'm happy enough with sub-100 though.

Great job V. A question, I see you planted a second city, what policy order did you use? I am going worker, Republic, right side and leaving the free settler as my last liberty policy. Do you find the second city useful? When do you plant it?