Realism Invictus

[Hian the Frog]

Hi All,

Update your SVN (revision: 4829) and test the changes we've commited.

Nearly all the gold anf trade buildings were reworked.
Forge, Blast and Ironwroks were also reworked, as well as the levee.

All these changes were implemented thanks to interesting feedbacks and comments from you and our own games and tests.

Enjoy !

PS: A few minor updates should be done in the next days to make the mod even better.

 

[Carrot Iron]

Edit:

Issue resolved.

The mod looks like everything CIV IV could have and should have been. First impression is really quite powerful, in a good way.

Can't wait to play and review.

 

[PKSRoman]

>have power 2.35
>have some units
>what to do?
DECLARE WAR OF COURSE, THATS SO REALISTIC


hope revolutions will be work better then actual opponent AI
no " we just add revolutions, ai will be just fight aganist revolutionists instead improve their civs to avoid rev. players even dont notice the difference! and even if we say thats a feature"

 

[Pomphis]

Two questions:

1) I just noticed that forts no longer act as cities for ships, so can no longer be used to build canals. Is there anything else to build canals ?

2) I was never offered the Great Schism as a tech and nobody else has founded orthodoxy. How does one get it ?

 

[Del_Boy]

Don't agree to go to war then. That being said, I also find AI demands to be a little irritating at times only because they often put you in a lose, lose situation, or are totally unrealistic. I do think that the AI war demands could be made less frequent under certain conditions, but this really isn't a major problem. Definitely nothing I would consider "game breaking." Also this is a civ 4 issue. It really has nothing to do with this mod.



I don't understand why this is a problem.



I think the archers are fine imho. They are vulnerable on plains if they are unaccompanied by spearmen and they are quite good defensively if they are fortified in a city, on hills, or in a forest. The are also strong attacking horsemen. It makes perfect sense to me.



Revolting peasants have nothing to do with happiness. They are guaranteed to show up if you are running slavery, or serfdom.

The problem WITH THIS ENTIRE MOD is that they are constantly sacrificing fun because of realism. To give you another example. If I want to build a christian temple I cant. Why? because the numbnuts who designed it decided that for some abstract reason, would make sure it gave you 1 sickness to your city. I mean, lets forgo the fact that temples mosques and lord knows wherever else people choose to worship are probably the cleanest places on earth. Lets toss all that knowledge and research out the window and create a problem that doesn't need to be there.

Serfdom make peasants revolt? Monarchy makes people revolt? For what reason? they are forcing me to take another form of civic simply so I dont have that headache. Why not make it more expensive?

If an AI goes to war with another civ I expect them to honour their agreement. not stand their like morons while I do all the heavy lifting. Also can you name a time that France ever attacked England just because they could? No. The whole damn thing needs to be rewritten. Have religious difference or civic difference or being caught spying as a reason.


As for the archer quote are you seriously kidding me? I attacked with a stack of 8 Norman Swordsman or knights or whatever 0.00% chance of success. Really? I tried every single unit type I had available. Nothing could disloge those archers. Not catapults not trebuchets nothing. I didnt have elephants and horse and neither did anyone else but somehow the AI managed to cheatand take an ethiopian city even though I couldnt. The archers also has a ridiculous amount of promotions. Who the hell had they been fighting since I beleive there is a cap on barbarian XP? What am I left with? A massive gap until I get to gunpowder and even then I'm not sure anything short of a tank/nuke would have disloged them.


I'm being punished unfairly by the mod for not wanting to fight and peacefully expand and picking the wrong civics/buildings/units. Guys seriously tone back on the realism. We get it but its preventing me from having fun. Remember fun?

 

[Shuikkanen]

@Del Boy
You did not pay a dime for this mod. If you do not find it fun, simply uninstall it and move on.

Or you can continue yelling.

 

[civman110]

...

Well it seems quite clear to me that this conversation isn't going to go anywhere because I honestly couldn't disagree with you more.

I could tell you some things that would help, or explain to you exactly why all of the things you are complaining about are in place and why they make sense, but at this point I feel like it would just be a waste of my time.

It seems like this mod just isn't for you.

 

[burebeesta]

"Mines becoming "obsolete" (rather, outclassed) by craftsmen is completely intentional. With growing automation of mining as well as industrial growth, more and more people were shifted from mining and farming towards working at the factories. Basically, terrain improvements are intentionally becoming less important towards XIX-XX century technological eras. At least for production, this is working completely as intended. Finding a proper balance for commerce is a different challenge".

Well, I see your point! I guess you are right about that.

 

[burebeesta]

I've been playing this mod for many years now and there was war spam before k-mod. I don't think k-mod is the problem, however I agree with some of the things you said.

The AI seems to go for what will give them the most points the fastest ie. (conquering your cities), rather than developing more of a long-term strategy of research and development and colonizing new far away parts of the map. I imagine these sorts of things are very difficult to teach an AI and it's also a difficult balance to strike.

Also after the AI gets burned in a few wars with you they don't learn not to play with fire. I saw Walter mention awhile ago that the RI team was hoping to teach the AI this sometime in the future.

I think I'v found a decent solution to war spam! I check the box "no city razing" and i noticed a huge improvement of the game mechanics. Because my problem with this really awesome mod is that the AI is not COMPETITIVE enough, and that if you defend well in the earlier phases of the game, then you will almost certainly WIN. AIs keep destroying each other, then building settlers, then destroying each other again... Huge waste of resources and time, since you need 10+ turns to build a settler in the early stages. Right now I am playing a game on Immortal Difficulty and I just got to the modern era, and I am comfortably leading the pack (by over 600 points). Why? Because the Romans in this game started a war against Carthage (the next 2 best civs) and destroyed 15+ cities, conquered none. This is really not only bad for game mechanics, but highly unrealistic. Never in the history of this stupid mankind wars were fought just to destroy cities. Not to mention that in the early phases of the game, the AI almost always destroys the cities after conquest.

Another thing. Since this mod has lots more techs and 3 times more turns until victory then vanilla civ it makes perfectly sense to favor the defender - and I would even argue that you could still give the defender a hand - since otherwise the game is over before researching that nice techs. Favoring the defender even more would increase the balance of the game and would partly solve the problem of runaway civs. (Another way of solving this problem is just picking 4 or more continents on your map)

That being said, I wish you all a nice day and I really appreciate the friendly manner in which discussions unfold themselves on this page.

 

[burebeesta]

Guys, another thing: does any of you live around Freiburg, Germany? Would be nice to meat sometime. The drinks are on me

 

[burebeesta]

The problem WITH THIS ENTIRE MOD is that....

As for the archer quote are you seriously kidding me? I attacked with a stack of 8 Norman Swordsman or knights or whatever 0.00% chance of success. Really? I tried every single unit type I had available. Nothing could disloge those archers. Not catapults not trebuchets nothing. I didnt have elephants and horse and neither did anyone else but somehow the AI managed to cheatand take an ethiopian city even though I couldnt. The archers also has a ridiculous amount of promotions. Who the hell had they been fighting since I beleive there is a cap on barbarian XP? What am I left with? A massive gap until I get to gunpowder and even then I'm not sure anything short of a tank/nuke would have disloged them.


I'm being punished unfairly by the mod for not wanting to fight and peacefully expand and picking the wrong civics/buildings/units. Guys seriously tone back on the realism. We get it but its preventing me from having fun. Remember fun?

God, I had a good laugh reading your story about those damn archers! Yeah, nuke the god damn creatures

 

[H4run]

The problem WITH THIS ENTIRE MOD is that they are constantly sacrificing fun because of realism. To give you another example. If I want to build a christian temple I cant. Why? because the numbnuts who designed it decided that for some abstract reason, would make sure it gave you 1 sickness to your city. I mean, lets forgo the fact that temples mosques and lord knows wherever else people choose to worship are probably the cleanest places on earth. Lets toss all that knowledge and research out the window and create a problem that doesn't need to be there.

I second this, balancing not suppose to be punishing, 1 sick person is easier to fix than -10 percent of wealth for Islamic temple. I also found the tribalfort not in anyway realistic, it also punish my AI for having eternal war with Bantu and Sawahili, not to mention they who only have medieval equipment, even me using gunpowder sometime having difficulty facing a tribalfort that station in city, they are really like a ghost than a unit.

However overall I will say this is an amazing mod, in fact the only mod I ever play seriously, better than the vanila, but it need to keep furnish and refurnish, and the temple stuff it suppose to be balancing not punishing the player to build it, while now in my game I avoid by any mean building any Islamic temple, except when I have no other choice like to alocate priest to gain a great prophet.

However I thank all of RI team for giving me a great entertainment and quality mod for free.

 

[sami_snow]

As for the archer quote are you seriously kidding me? I attacked with a stack of 8 Norman Swordsman or knights or whatever 0.00% chance of success. Really? I tried every single unit type I had available. Nothing could disloge those archers. Not catapults not trebuchets nothing. I didnt have elephants and horse and neither did anyone else but somehow the AI managed to cheatand take an ethiopian city even though I couldnt. The archers also has a ridiculous amount of promotions. Who the hell had they been fighting since I beleive there is a cap on barbarian XP? What am I left with? A massive gap until I get to gunpowder and even then I'm not sure anything short of a tank/nuke would have disloged them.

DELICIOUS DELICIOUS TEARS. what difficulty do you play on? this mod is not for the faint of heart

 

[HannibalBarka]

The problem WITH THIS ENTIRE MOD is that they are constantly sacrificing fun because of realism. To give you another example. If I want to build a christian temple I cant. Why? because the numbnuts who designed it decided that for some abstract reason, would make sure it gave you 1 sickness to your city. I mean, lets forgo the fact that temples mosques and lord knows wherever else people choose to worship are probably the cleanest places on earth. Lets toss all that knowledge and research out the window and create a problem that doesn't need to be there.

Serfdom make peasants revolt? Monarchy makes people revolt? For what reason? they are forcing me to take another form of civic simply so I dont have that headache. Why not make it more expensive?

If an AI goes to war with another civ I expect them to honour their agreement. not stand their like morons while I do all the heavy lifting. Also can you name a time that France ever attacked England just because they could? No. The whole damn thing needs to be rewritten. Have religious difference or civic difference or being caught spying as a reason.


As for the archer quote are you seriously kidding me? I attacked with a stack of 8 Norman Swordsman or knights or whatever 0.00% chance of success. Really? I tried every single unit type I had available. Nothing could disloge those archers. Not catapults not trebuchets nothing. I didnt have elephants and horse and neither did anyone else but somehow the AI managed to cheatand take an ethiopian city even though I couldnt. The archers also has a ridiculous amount of promotions. Who the hell had they been fighting since I beleive there is a cap on barbarian XP? What am I left with? A massive gap until I get to gunpowder and even then I'm not sure anything short of a tank/nuke would have disloged them.


I'm being punished unfairly by the mod for not wanting to fight and peacefully expand and picking the wrong civics/buildings/units. Guys seriously tone back on the realism. We get it but its preventing me from having fun. Remember fun?

there is your problem. In this mod you need to build "true" armies with archers, melee, light and heavy cavalries, scouts, sieges units, etc. Armies with only one type of units are weak and can be easily destroyed, they can barely survive defending, so attacking and taking cities are just no no for them. You need to play the mod as it was designed and not as you were playing vanilla. there are a lot of changes in this mod that makes your style of playing vanilla just not OK. Trust me, if you get all those changes and "annoyances" and use them to your advantages, you'll win and have the fun back , because you lost the fun mainly because you can't find a way to win

 

[pioswa]

@PKSRoman: Do you have "AI play to win" checked? If Yes then uncheck it and war spam wont happen so often. Another thing is: Stop whinging! Your stupid sarcastic comments about "how bad this mod is" or "Realism Bugvicts" etc don't do any good, just piss people off (me for instance). If you don't like it then uninstall, play vanilla and sit quiet.

 

[civman110]

I think I'v found a decent solution to war spam! I check the box "no city razing" and i noticed a huge improvement of the game mechanics.

Thanks for the tip. I could certainly see this helping, but for me I will always play with city razing because in certain situations it is quite useful.

Because my problem with this really awesome mod is that the AI is not COMPETITIVE enough, and that if you defend well in the earlier phases of the game, then you will almost certainly WIN...

AIs keep destroying each other, then building settlers, then destroying each other again... Huge waste of resources and time, since you need 10+ turns to build a settler in the early stages.

I think much of this will be corrected with the commerce re-balancing the RI team is doing right now. What they have done just in the last month has helped this quite a bit (I haven't player the latest revision yet). By lowering the commerce of certain buildings and playing at a higher difficulty (which gives the AI unfair advantages in commerce and production) should help make up for self-destructive AI wars.

I find this happens because like you said the AI fights unsustainable, far away wars at times and the human player tends to only conquer what they can sustain. Then once good economic opportunities become available the human player capitalizes on this opportunity to greatly increase their territory and research without a lot of effort. Then you're a juggernaut mid-late game.

Another thing. Since this mod has lots more techs and 3 times more turns until victory then vanilla civ it makes perfectly sense to favor the defender - and I would even argue that you could still give the defender a hand - since otherwise the game is over before researching that nice techs. Favoring the defender even more would increase the balance of the game and would partly solve the problem of runaway civs. (Another way of solving this problem is just picking 4 or more continents on your map)

Perhaps a bit more in later eras, but until the recent changes I would always win before I reached the modern era so I can't really offer a good opinion on that yet.

From my experiences, the defender (in a city) already has a pretty big advantage up until the renaissance, with the Medieval era being the hardest era to capture cities. 4 longbowmen a few melee units, walls, a castle and you can pretty much forget about taking that city until gunpowder. God forbid it's on a hill.

That being said, I wish you all a nice day and I really appreciate the friendly manner in which discussions unfold themselves on this page.

Same to you

I second this, balancing not suppose to be punishing, 1 sick person is easier to fix than -10 percent of wealth for Islamic temple.

Not all religions behave equally in terms of heath, economic opportunity, and political will. In RI, Islam has many advantages that other religions do not, such as converting cities by conquest and their Mujahideen are a powerful early unit. I also think (unless I'm mistaken that Islamic Temples have +1 to trade routes as well).

 

[pioswa]

4 longbowmen a few melee units, walls, a castle and you can pretty much forget about taking that city until gunpowder. God forbid it's on a hill.

Or use knights with doctrine chivalry (high retreat chance and fs immunity) and you can capture that city. Its tough but not impossible.

 

[burebeesta]

Or use knights with doctrine chivalry (high retreat chance and fs immunity) and you can capture that city. Its tough but not impossible.

Ok, best way to conquer the city, from my experience, is to have 3-4 spies in it and, just before attacking, cause revolt. The city defense will drop to 0% for 1 turn. Have some horseman in your stack, a catapult (you dont use it, just for stack bonus) 4-5 swordsman and some recon units. Attack with horsemen first for collateral damage, then attack with recon, if the archers hp havent dropped enough. then attack with the swordsmen...If needed bring two or even three similar stacks and you will certainly conquer the city..

 

[Del_Boy]

Well it seems quite clear to me that this conversation isn't going to go anywhere because I honestly couldn't disagree with you more.

I could tell you some things that would help, or explain to you exactly why all of the things you are complaining about are in place and why they make sense, but at this point I feel like it would just be a waste of my time.

It seems like this mod just isn't for you.

No you couldn't tell me anything because combat is broken, diplomacy is broken, THE AI is BROKEN! So take your passive agressive attitude and shove it.

 

[H4run]

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