Deity Culture Victory Max Civs Advice

[pkingdom]

I haven't played Civ 5 in a while, but I decided to get back into it with a little project. I decided to try to get a Culture Victory on Deity with the largest map and number of Civs possible. Thing is, it hasn't been going well. I've had trouble deciding on what map type to try this on or what Civ to use. I've tended to get either screwed quickly in the beginning with losing early wonders or getting swarmed, or losing out on the important wonders later on.

I just tried a game as Polynesia and at about 280 turns I got beat by Science.

I guess I'm just not using the right strategies. I know to focus on Tradition in the beginning and only use about 4 cities. I had tried splitting my initial Tech focus between top and bottom to try to get Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, but that's just not feasible on Deity. Should I just rush Education and Acoustics?

I read Deau's big advice post on Culture victories, which should help. But does anyone have any suggestions for a 12 civ game? Even something like what map or Civ to use would be a big help.

 

[consentient]

I've run into the same problems, pkingdom. It's a much harder game on a Huge map. I can only imagine that you have to use diplo more effectively to keep your rivals at war so they make less lifetime culture.

Have you watched Moriarte's LPs? I believe he may have made a CV on Huge and recorded it?

If you uncover any tips or decent strategy, then please let me know. I'd like to be able to win this way too. And good luck! Sorry I can't be of more help

 

[Phukit]

I've run into the same problems, pkingdom. It's a much harder game on a Huge map. I can only imagine that you have to use diplo more effectively to keep your rivals at war so they make less lifetime culture.

Have you watched Moriarte's LPs? I believe he may have made a CV on Huge and recorded it?

If you uncover any tips or decent strategy, then please let me know. I'd like to be able to win this way too. And good luck! Sorry I can't be of more help

how difficult is expansion with so many civs?

would a civ like venice perhaps do well with their extra trade routes and ability to buy CS?

 

[pkingdom]

That's actually a big reason I tried this as Polynesia. I played on a Large Islands map, and I figured Polynesia would be great for Culture on that kind of map. The ocean alone served as a deterrence to war until I at least had some infrastructure up. Plus I was able to explore and settle a couple of islands all on my own.

Expansion wasn't too difficult, as long as I did it early and didn't get too far from the capital.

 

[consentient]

I've started a game on Huge, Immortal, Continents, as the Songhai and am recording an LP.

There is plenty of room for expansion. Maybe the neighbours are even too far away for my liking.

Not sure how I can adjust my strategy. I'm hoping my closest neighbour builds some juicy wonders I can snatch.

 

[ShakaKhan]

I've tended to get either screwed quickly in the beginning with losing early wonders or getting swarmed, or losing out on the important wonders later on.

...try to get Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, but that's just not feasible on Deity.

Unfortunately, I have to play on smaller maps because of computer limitations. I used to play mostly on standard maps, but have noticed better gameplay on small maps (which, IIRC, small maps are the default setting) so now I'm sticking mostly to small maps.

Nonetheless, specific to culture victories there are two factors that decrease the effectiveness of building wonders and increase the effectiveness of aggression. One factor is difficulty level. Higher difficulty levels makes it less feasible to hard-build multiple wonders, but consequently mean that more wonders can be acquired through aggression. You've mentioned that the difficulty level is deity, meaning that you really can't builld more than one wonder every other era but that more wonders can be acquired through aggression. The other factor is map size. All civs get their guilds up reasonably soon after the tech becomes available to them (yes, some civs exhibit culture victory behavior and prioritize it more, but all of 'em get guilds up shortly after they are able to.) Larger maps = more AI civs = more great works to steal. While you can trade great works with AI's, you can never outright buy/sell them, meaning the only way to increase the number of great works you have is to either build them yourself (which we're all doing anyway) or to capture them through aggression. Furthermore, on deity it's often more effective, efficient and likely to succeed if you attack later when you've had more of a chance to catch up. Attacking later also means that the AI you're attacking will have more great works (and wonders) to steal, so mid-game to late-game aggression is often more successful and tourism-effective than early rushes.

This is part of the complaint that everyone has about science>>>everything else. In terms of culture victory, science -> better units/production of units -> easier city conquest -> more stolen great works, more stolen world wonders, and more land which means more landmark spots for hotel/airport tourism.

Another consideration is that since the game is deity and hard-built wonders will be fewer, most of your tourism will come from either great works or hotel/airport affected dirt culture. While you will try to maximize great works and theming bonuses, they usually only take it so far and dirt culture can be a powerful supplement. CIvs like Polynesia, Brazil, and France (also Shoshone using 4UC) have a massive edge over the rest of the field with their UI's and again, more aggression -> more cities and land -> more dirt culture -> more tourism from hotels/airports.

 

[pkingdom]

Just tried again as Polynesia, following some of Deau's Diety Culture victory guide. Really did not help. I managed to save scrum a bit and build the Oracle and Porcelain Tower, but I missed the Sistine Chapel, Leaning Tower, and Uffizi. The other civs just got way too far ahead of me Science wise. And bribing them into going to war with each other over and over again just meant I had no money and barely any happiness myself. The last file I tried managed to build the Great Library, Parthenon and Sistine Chapel, so I actually did worse.

Anyone have any more advice? It's all helped a little bit at least. I do think Polynesia on an Island or Fractal map is the way to go with this.

 

[pkingdom]

Also, in the file where I managed to build the Great Library I forwent Religion entirely, and it really didn't hurt. If I can't find an ruins for Faith I might not bother with it at all. I certainly don't think its worth putting two points in Piety when I could just finish Tradition sooner. Heck, maybe even put points in Liberty to get the free worker and settler.

 

[Sclb]

I have no idea why you're trying to play with max civs when it doesn't look like you can win at all. It is harder than standard map.

 

[BlackWizard]

I have no idea why you're trying to play with max civs when it doesn't look like you can win at all. It is harder than standard map.

Maybe they like pain and suffering

 

[pkingdom]

It's a self imposed challenge. that's all.

I find that become buds with a Militaristic City State as early as possible to be more helpful than a religious one. With a Military buddy, you can focus a bit less on building units and just let them give you a decent sized army over time.

 

[ShakaKhan]

I managed to save scrum a bit and build the Oracle and Porcelain Tower, but I missed the Sistine Chapel, Leaning Tower, and Uffizi. The other civs just got way too far ahead of me Science wise.

The last file I tried managed to build the Great Library, Parthenon and Sistine Chapel, so I actually did worse.

Anyone have any more advice?

Repeating myself, but several conditions imply more science focus, more aggression focus, and less wonder hording, even for culture victories. One of these conditions is higher difficulty and you're playing the highest difficulty. Another condition is larger maps with more civs, and you're playing the largest map with the most civs. For culture victories it helps to have a delayed start to aggression so the AIs have more time to build more great works for you to steal and more wonders that you can conquer. And especially in the case of civs with UIs that provide dirt culture, more cities = more dirt culture improvements = more total tourism. Because a delayed aggression start helps in this way, I prefer tradition over liberty, but that's dealer's choice. After finishing tradition, Open aesthetics and get fine arts since you'll have to get a policy or two before rationalism becomes available and these two picks both increase your total culture speeding up rationalism and unlock bigger tourism modifying SP's that you'll get after finishing rationalism. Religion can help but isn't necessary.

I do think Polynesia on an Island or Fractal map is the way to go with this.

Once you relieve yourself of wonder dependence for culture wins, any civ can do it. But for the record, I think the paths of least resistance are France, Brazil and Polynesia in that order. The UIs that put culture on the map are such a strong source of tourism. While Brazil's bonuses are better for your own cities, most of your annexes won't have jungle so the UI will only apply to a small fraction of your cities, maybe 1 city in 5 will have multiple jungle tiles. For France, luxuries are spread pretty evenly across the map, so almost every city will have at least 2 luxes in range, and each can make three chateaus in pinwheel formation (provided other resources or coast aren't in the way.) The City of Lights bonus is less of a factor for higher levels, My last deity France game won a CV on turn 252 and the only City of Lights bonus was the museum.

 

[Sclb]

After finishing tradition, Open aesthetics and get fine arts since you'll have to get a policy or two before rationalism becomes available and these two picks both increase your total culture speeding up rationalism and unlock bigger tourism modifying SP's that you'll get after finishing rationalism. Religion can help but isn't necessary.

You shouldn't get fine arts first, since you're supposed to minimize excess happiness by selling luxuries to get good gpt to buy important buildings. You should get Cultural centers instead, help building opera houses and museums. Also you should really try to get a religion when doing CV, even if you don't bother spreading the religion, you can later make your holy city get extra tourism if you pass world religion.

 

[miaasma]

lots of small ways you can improve culture with religion too. some beliefs like choral music never get taken so it's at the very least a guarantee if you can found a religion

pretty much all victory conditions at high difficulty require huge science focus i find, as well as not dying

 

[ShakaKhan]

You shouldn't get fine arts first, since you're supposed to minimize excess happiness by selling luxuries to get good gpt to buy important buildings. You should get Cultural centers instead, help building opera houses and museums.

To each his own. I can see trying to boost economy to buy things, but "minimizing excess happiness" is dangerous and something that should rarely be done; the only situation that I do this in is trying to delay a golden age until just after getting Suffrage or capturing Chicken Pizza. Presumably you're still growing as fast as you can, and minimizing happiness is likely to be significantly more costly than beneficial. But again, to each his own.

Also you should really try to get a religion when doing CV, even if you don't bother spreading the religion, you can later make your holy city get extra tourism if you pass world religion.

Good point. I forgot about this and having world religion was a key component to culture victories when I was playing lower levels and trying for completely peaceful culture victory approaches. I find at deity that having at least moderate aggression greatly assists a culture victory and the world religion, while still a very considerable bonus, is not as much of an issue. Also note that world religion "increases tourism 50% in the holy city" and you don't have to found a religion to receive this bonus. The tourism leader is almost always a civ that founds a religion, and their holy city is often chock full o' wonders.

 

[beetle]

I can see trying to boost economy to buy things, but "minimizing excess happiness" is dangerous and something that should rarely be done; the only situation that I do this in is trying to delay a golden age until just after getting Suffrage or capturing Chicken Pizza.

I agree with you here, but then I very much struggle with CV.

Also note that world religion "increases tourism 50% in the holy city" and you don't have to found a religion to receive this bonus. The tourism leader is almost always a civ that founds a religion, and their holy city is often chock full o' wonders.

At that point you might as well be talking about a domination VC. I think Deity CV is really only interesting in the context of pulling it off peacefully. Which people assert that they can do reliably, but I have not found a script detailed enough for me to follow. I think it is because I cannot reach Internet fast enough, but maybe that is just indicative that I cannot tech fast enough period.

 

[Nigel_Tufnel2]

or capturing Chicken Pizza.

This is one of the funniest things I've seen on the board!

 

[ShakaKhan]

At that point you might as well be talking about a domination VC.

Yes and no. Capturing one capital is a considerably easier task than capturing 7 of them, especially if the leader is hardcore going for culture/tourism and is one of the bottom civs in military manpower. Plus, I find that on deity (and other levels, but most problematic there) there's one runaway civ that I'm still "increasing slowly" against even after I'm influential with everyone else on the map. Taking his capital both dramatically decreases his cultural defense, and annexing and buying a hotel (possibly airport as well) substantially increases your tourism. My last deity culture game I was influential with everyone except Siam, who was still "increasing slowly." The turn that I took his capital, it dropped from "increasing slowly" to "influential in 65 turns." 18 turns later when resistance ended and I bought a hotel/airport there, it dropped from 46 turns to 7 turns.

I think Deity CV is really only interesting in the context of pulling it off peacefully.

I completely disagree but acknowledge that we can all play the game however we want. I find deity culture games to be the most fun games because of the diversity in the style of play. Science games are usually most effective (or at least quickest) by turtling up and playing peaceful all game. Dom games are about getting an early capital or two, turtling, and having a late game blitzkrieg. Diplo is about playing peaceful to the very end, declaring war on the most aggressive civ and liberating everything that he took. Culture games, however, can go in so many different ways.

 

[stormtrooper412]

My Dom games are (or will be from this point on) all about NUKES!

 

[beetle]

Capturing one capital is a considerably easier task than capturing 7 of them, especially if the leader is hardcore going for culture/tourism and is one of the bottom civs in military manpower.

That is true. Still, I think it is pretty clear that peaceful CV is harder than a CV where you kill the tourism leaders. Peaceful CV eludes me, which is no doubt part of why I find it interesting.

My last deity culture game I was influential with everyone except Siam, who was still "increasing slowly." The turn that I took his capital, it dropped from "increasing slowly" to "influential in 65 turns." 18 turns later when resistance ended and I bought a hotel/airport there, it dropped from 46 turns to 7 turns.

Siam was the hold out in my last deity culture game as well! I don't think I checked to see if taking his cap was enough, and eliminated him. I am sure Siam was more sprawling in your game, but 25 turns seems like a long time to wait at that point in the game!

Diplo is about playing peaceful to the very end, declaring war on the most aggressive civ and liberating everything that he took.

Actually for Diplo, I find being at peace with everyone for the last vote is much easier. Liberating CS is pretty much a zero-sum game. If you can recall a civ to life, that is very helpful, but can be done any time.

Culture games, however, can go in so many different ways.

Taking caps or peaceful. How is that “so many”? How often have you gotten a peaceful Deity CV?