Concern for Brazils Battleship?

[JediOmen]

Hey folks,

So i know we're speculating and discussing aspects of a game not yet released, but is anyone concerned about Brazils UU, the Battleship Minas Geraes? Certainly it's cool to see that piece of history in the game and certainly in 1910 it was among the most powerful ships at sea, but Brazil was never much of a sea power and even by the first world war, the dreadnought class was well dated.

This presents an interesting scenario where Brazil could have a more powerful navy than even traditional naval civs, and in much later an era than normal. Yeah, I get that civ isn't made with 100% historical accuracy in mind, and that's fine, but there were dozens of BB more powerful and notable (Yamato, Bismarck, King George V, Iowa Class).

Obviously mods can always change the UU after the fact, it just seems like an odd choice by the devs.

 

[DJ_Tanner]

I see this scenario no more 'interesting' then when Rome wins a naval battle vs. England.

 

[indradiva]

Brazil isn't a great military player in the game either, one late naval UU doesn't change that. Most probably the devs wanted to give them something other than Pracinha for the variety's sake. Anyway, that doesn't bother me.

 

[JediOmen]

Your point is that if theyre still around late game one UU is unlikely to make or break them?
Thats reasonable i suppose. Still feels odd..

 

[Martinus]

I think the key benefit of this unit is that it comes with a cultural "tech" ie Nationalism - so this offers a relatively good defensive unit for a cultural Brazil player who may have fallen behind in science.

 

[JediOmen]

Interesting thought. After all for its strength increase it gets a slight neef to range, hence the more defensive aspect.

 

[Stilgar08]

Looking forward to get into Brazil-Germany UU-fights
Seriously: Both UUs won't have much of a big impact even if navy is considerably more important than in CiV (which is yet to be seen anyways).

 

[JediOmen]

Yeah, i noticed that too. Germany will have a very fun navy late game, especially as an underdog.

 

[Plus Ultra]

I think the key benefit of this unit is that it comes with a cultural "tech" ie Nationalism - so this offers a relatively good defensive unit for a cultural Brazil player who may have fallen behind in science.

Bingo.

 

[Liex]

I completely agree with you.

1. Most Brazilians probably never head of it, or only superficially.
2. It's not even Brazilian in its origins, as it was designed and built in the UK.
3. As a Naval UU, it doesn't really fit Brazil thematically, as OP said.
4. It doesn't synergize particularly well with Brazil's abilities.
5. There are far superior choices for a Brazilian UU:

Pará-class Monitors (ironclad): If they REALLY wanted a Naval UU, this would be a much better choice. It was designed and built by the Brazilian Navy and it was much more important as it fought in the Paraguay War. It could grant nearby land allies the "Amphibious" promotion, and have extra damage or range against land enemies. That would be more accurate, and Brazil wouldn't end as a naval power.

Other possible UUs: Bandeirantes (musketman); Independence Dragoon (lancer); Fatherland Volunteer (rifleman); Sertanista (infantry); Pracinha (infantry); A-29 Super Tucano (fighter); Candango (caravan).

Most of these were much more important in Brazilian history, every Brazilian heard of them, there are places, buildings and companies named after them, there are statues and monuments in their honor. And they could easily fit in the game with interesting mechanics.

I believe there are no Lancers and Riflemen in Civ6, so some of those suggestions would have no unit to replace, which is fine. The only one that could be tricky is the Super Tucano. They are still in use, so I don't know if you could just add them to a game.​

 

[Xandinho]

I completely agree with you.

1. Most Brazilians probably never head of it, or only superficially.
2. It's not even Brazilian in its origins, as it was designed and built in the UK.
3. As a Naval UU, it doesn't really fit Brazil thematically, as OP said.
4. It doesn't synergize particularly well with Brazil's abilities.
5. There are far superior choices for a Brazilian UU:

Pará-class Monitors (ironclad): If they REALLY wanted a Naval UU, this would be a much better choice. It was designed and built by the Brazilian Navy and it was much more important as it fought in the Paraguay War. It could grant nearby land allies the "Amphibious" promotion, and have extra damage or range against land enemies. That would be more accurate, and Brazil wouldn't end as a naval power.

Other possible UUs: Bandeirantes (musketman); Independence Dragoon (lancer); Fatherland Volunteer (rifleman); Sertanista (infantry); Pracinha (infantry); A-29 Super Tucano (fighter); Candango (caravan).

Most of these were much more important in Brazilian history, every Brazilian heard of them, there are places, buildings and companies named after them, there are statues and monuments in their honor. And they could easily fit in the game with interesting mechanics.

I believe there are no Lancers and Riflemen in Civ6, so some of those suggestions would have no unit to replace, which is fine. The only one that could be tricky is the Super Tucano. They are still in use, so I don't know if you could just add them to a game.​

Yes, yes, this.
The choice of Minas Geraes is certainly very odd, if they wanted something different from the Pracinhas, they could include the "Voluntários da Pátria", and this would be consistent with the Brazil Empire led by Pedro II.

But reading about the Minas Geraes in wikipedia, I found this:

Alarmed, the American ambassador to Brazil sent a cablegram to his Department of State in September 1906, warning them of the destabilization that would occur if the situation devolved into a full naval arms race. At the same time, the American government under Theodore Roosevelt tried using diplomatic means to coerce the Brazilians into canceling their ships, but the attempts were dismissed, with the Baron of Rio Branco remarking that caving to the American demands would render Brazil as powerless as suzerain Cuba. The President of Brazil, Afonso Pena, supported the naval acquisitions in an address to the National Congress of Brazil in November 1906, as in his opinion the ships were necessary to replace the antiquated and obsolete vessels of the current navy.

This could be the reason in which developers have chosen the Minas Geraes over another UU? To make a synergy with America led by Theodore Roosevelt?

 

[isau]

I think the key benefit of this unit is that it comes with a cultural "tech" ie Nationalism - so this offers a relatively good defensive unit for a cultural Brazil player who may have fallen behind in science.

Good observation.

 

[Liex]

This could be the reason in which developers have chosen the Minas Geraes over another UU? To make a synergy with America led by Theodore Roosevelt?

It could be, but that's a shame. If they had Teddy in mind, they could have made a Sertanista UU. Here is Teddy with Marshal Rondon and a few sertanistas in the Amazon Basin:

 

[cools0812]

Minas Geraes was not even among the most powerful battleships at her time. Her main armor belt was dangerously thin: only 9in. In comparison, HMS St Vincent, SMS Helgoland, Japanese Kawachi and USS South Carolina all have much better main belt, ranging from 10 to 12 inches. Minas Geraes got a battlecruiser’s protection, but without a battlecruiser's speed, because she's powered by already outdated triple expansion steam engines. Twelve 12in guns could be a formidable advantage, if not placed in hexagonal layout and having slower fire-rate and shorter range than the german and US 12 in guns. Dont forget by 1910 HMS Orion was already laid down, super dreadnoughts with their 13.5in big guns would render all those battleships mentioned above obsolete in 1912. The first look video really made me laugh when it said, Minas Geraes has improved defense and range.
BTW, she was designed and built by British company Vickers, purchased by Brazil. Is there any UU not the original creation of the civilization it belongs to besides this one? Please remind me if there is.

 

[Scaramanga]

There will certainly be resource restrictions on battleship UUs (I think) so Brazil will have to have significant resource command to field a superb navy. England are more adept at building one from the ground up. Brazil can't be a significant land power so I think this is a good compromise.

 

[Abraxis]

It may be that trade influences tourism, in which case having that late power at sea would help them prevent others from preventing their victory.

 

[Makenshi]

Interesting thought. After all for its strength increase it gets a slight neef to range, hence the more defensive aspect.

lolwut? the video said they get increased range, not reduced; probably the ranged strenght is the reduced one

 

[Liex]

lolwut? the video said they get increased range, not reduced; probably the ranged strenght is the reduced one

Actually, the video says that it has improved defense and ranged combat values. Some people, myself included, interpreted that as extra range, but that's not the case.

So the Minas Gerais:

• Is unlocked through Civics, which is nice if you're focusing in culture;
• Is unlocked in the Industrial Era, while the Battleship is a Modern Era unit. So it will probably come earlier if you're focusing in culture, and about the same time as the Battleship if you're not.
• Is stronger than the Battleship, both when defending (+10 Melee Strength) and attacking (+10 Ranged Strength).
• Apparently it is 1 Movement Point slower.

So history and popularity aside, the Minas Gerais sounds like an amazing UU.

 

[JediOmen]

lolwut? the video said they get increased range, not reduced; probably the ranged strenght is the reduced one

As Liex mentioned, one less movement point so its a bit slower. Not crippling or anything, but something to give pause for thought before shipping all your ships off to the 4 corners..

Pará-class Monitors...

That would have been a nice touch actually; I'd forgotten about the Para-class. The thing that bugs me is more the fact that actual seafaring nations with historical BB that were boss will now have less chance of having a BB UU, since Firaxis likes spreading out UU out (ie.. only one unique fighter, only one unique sub). But hey, thats why God created modpacks

 

[rpgalon]

BTW, she was designed and built by British company Vickers, purchased by Brazil. Is there any UU not the original creation of the civilization it belongs to besides this one? Please remind me if there is.

Maybe that is why it is unlocked from civic tree (Nationalism) and not the tech tree.

It actually fits nicely with the ship history, even better with the civic being nationalism, as that was one of the reasons for the purchase of the battleship.