Notes from Ed Beach's Civ VI talk at GDC

[DavidFarrell]

Figured some folks here might find it interesting
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jqAFacz5NU4kBfpSUkGQTHswnm7JeFNHBEupD8FDhVs/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Jussiut]

I like the behind the scenes look on some of the game design decisions, but all of the points ended with "the solution worked beautifully" etc. and no mention of ongoing challenges and problems with the game. So from a non-designer perspective the presentation is basically meaningless because it gives you the impression everything is just wonderful now with Civ6 and that all of their concepts (including unit movement which is hilarious) are without problems now.

 

[DavidFarrell]

I feel I should point out that there is every chance my notes didn't capture his more critical comments.

I have made the document open to comments and I hope that others in the audience might correct what are sure to be many mistakes or points that I missed or misunderstood.

 

[Esperr]

The sections on movement and congestion were really ignorant, and there tech and civic tree are just as one dimensional as V. Still a great game but man does he sound delusional.

 

[Jussiut]

I feel I should point out that there is every chance my notes didn't capture his more critical comments.

I have made the document open to comments and I hope that others in the audience might correct what are sure to be many mistakes or points that I missed or misunderstood.

No worries - I know how difficult/annoying it can be to take copious notes. This was interesting so thank you for doing it!

The sections on movement and congestion were really ignorant, and there tech and civic tree are just as one dimensional as V. Still a great game but man does he sound delusional.

Indeed. Either they are completely oblivious and living in some sort of a bubble, or more likely that they are aware of the problems but they have a strict corporate policy to stick to the script and not acknowledge criticisms and flaws in the game and just focus on the positive because it's better PR. That would also explain why their interaction with their customer base and responsiveness to bugs/feedback is near non-existent.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Really interesting perspective.

 

[Wingednosering]

Yeah, I don't think very much of this actually improved. It doesn't surprise me at all that civics took them the longest to implement and the most iterations. It's an absolute mess graphically and I'd say about 2/3 of them are never worth using. I actually preferred Civ Vs system.

The new movement is terrible. If he pushed it through despite his teams reservations, it explains a lot. The blue line in XCOM works because movement and attack were fairly separate. In Civ VI the blue line fails to tell you if you can move and attack or move and capture a builder.

 

[Lucius_]

It was a cool read, and in all honesty, many of the changes made to the game work really, really well and are quite fun. The game is boring though because the AI is so easily steamrolled. I'm not sure if this is an issue of the AI not getting enough bonuses or if it just needs to play better; likely the latter I'd suspect though. The game is not without it's problems (***religion***), but man does it have a lot of potential. I sure do hope that future patches and expansions can fix this game. I'm enjoying my australia game right now, but idk if I'll actually finish it. It's turn 150 and I've already won. Do I want to play out another 100-200 turns to make it official (especially without a HoF to record the win)?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I think it was interesting to see the steps along the journey to the final product.

 

[whyidie]

Good peek behind the scenes. If one were looking for a topical presentation on how to solve dev problems seems like he hit the mark. He was probably asked to speak there because of his successes.

Yes. He and the teams he has worked with on this and past games are successes.

People really expecting a mea culpa in that forum ? Delusional.

Good goodness, I don't blame Firaxis for going silent on the forums. We forget our manners. Poor Schaeffer guy from Civ5 has practical stalkers dragging him through the mud at every turn.

 

[nzcamel]

I'm so glad Beach stuck to his guns on movement. It is the best it has ever been in the whole series. Once again you make a decision based on your options, without having to always take the no brainer rough terrain option for the better defensive position. No matter what position any two close units start a turn in, they are subject to the same consistent rules; adding more tactical depth to unit positioning.

 

[kaspergm]

The sections on movement and congestion were really ignorant, and there tech and civic tree are just as one dimensional as V. Still a great game but man does he sound delusional.

Perhaps the wording here is a bit harsh, but I do think it's an interesting thought that Civ5 only got really great after Shafer(sp?) left the project and Ed Beach got to head it. Point is, sometimes when you've invested a lot of time and energy (and love) in producing something, you just become blind to its weaker spots. Basically, it's the same tendency we see here. I wonder if Ed will be able to kill some of his own darlings which might be what it takes to make the game really great, or if it will require someone else to get overall responsibility - or modders, to finish the job.

 

[Gorbles]

The sections on movement and congestion were really ignorant, and there tech and civic tree are just as one dimensional as V. Still a great game but man does he sound delusional.

You going to explain, or just relying on people agreeing you for the popular vote?

Limited stacking is what was introduced, which is funny because that's exactly what people have been asking for. I'm honestly surprised people made such a little deal out of Corps and Armies considering how effective they are in the lategame.

 

[CivCube]

We're in very interesting times for Civ. This is the first time we've had a sequel directly follow its predecessor for expanding existing mechanics, leaving mainly technical issues like UI and AI to clean up. The question now will be whether the design elements will continue to overwhelm the AI as more systems are added, or if it will be mainly "content" in terms of more Civs and scenarios while the devs slowly improve the game.

 

[Tech Osen]

I think the game is fine, I have no issue with any of the mechanics. The problem, for me, is that the game is apparently too complicated for the AI. Giving the player more (meaningful) choices is great but if the AI can't handle those choices then it doesn't work.

 

[Hail]

Figured some folks here might find it interesting
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jqAFacz5NU4kBfpSUkGQTHswnm7JeFNHBEupD8FDhVs/edit?usp=sharing

can you provide a link to the video of Ed's speech on GDC?

 

[CellKu]

Thanks for the write-up. Nice to read about their thought process regarding certain design elements.

 

[DavidFarrell]

can you provide a link to the video of Ed's speech on GDC?

The videos are uploaded to the vault some time a few weeks after GDC. Some of the videos are public and some require the paywall login. So I can't share the video atm.

 

[Furycrab]

The sections on movement and congestion were really ignorant, and there tech and civic tree are just as one dimensional as V. Still a great game but man does he sound delusional.

I don't think it's delusional. The tech trees and how it plays with the map/your current game is huge. There are guidelines and milestones, as well as certain techs and civics you probably want to hit first, but the number of small decisions you can take and the impact it will have on your overall efficiency is huge... In Civ 5, once I knew which luxuries I had to improve first, I could probably tell you the exact order of almost all of my techs. Civ:BE was probably worst, because the illusion of choice there was much harsher once you started figuring out what techs you really needed.

The movement stuff, IMO they probably felt like the unstacking of the cities + active research were going to be such a huge step up in learning curve that when it came to combat they just went for minor changes and improvements, so he's just describing what they did that felt right. It's hard to argue that anything he says is wrong, for example, naval units stacking with embarked units is huge. It's just probably not what you are wanting to hear if you hated 1UPT from the start.

 

[Esperr]

I don't think it's delusional. The tech trees and how it plays with the map/your current game is huge. There are guidelines and milestones, as well as certain techs and civics you probably want to hit first, but the number of small decisions you can take and the impact it will have on your overall efficiency is huge... In Civ 5, once I knew which luxuries I had to improve first, I could probably tell you the exact order of almost all of my techs. Civ:BE was probably worst, because the illusion of choice there was much harsher once you started figuring out what techs you really needed.

The movement stuff, IMO they probably felt like the unstacking of the cities + active research were going to be such a huge step up in learning curve that when it came to combat they just went for minor changes and improvements, so he's just describing what they did that felt right. It's hard to argue that anything he says is wrong, for example, naval units stacking with embarked units is huge. It's just probably not what you are wanting to hear if you hated 1UPT from the start.

I think both V and VI have switchboard tech trees. Its almost like he had a graph of in his own talk, where it was like, "Im going to archer rush? Go here first", "Im going peaceful? Ok go here first". There might be more slight leaf delianation in VI, but for the most part it was still pretty much the same as V, except I feel like the beggining of the civic tree is almost worse, you pretty much always beeline Poly phi, then feudalism.

I like 1UPT, I always thought it was better then stacks. But the congestion is still present, the slog over a map is still there. I don't like the changes in VI at all, as it just made slogging through the map worse and I don't see what it was supposed to be improving by crippling movement. The A.I clearly has huge issues with it as well, but I do like the concept.