Israeli Forests

[Ajidica]

No you can criticize Israeli policy just like you can criticize US or Chinese or whatever policy. But weirdly when it comes to Israel "critics" don't stop at criticism. They want boycotts, disinvestment, punishing of Israeli researchers and scholars by denying them talks abroad, etc. That's when racism kicks in. The left-wing criticism of Israel in the west is so hypocritical and so contaminated by unrepentant anti-Semites that the whole thing becomes compromised and hard to take seriously.

Boycotting, divestment, and no-platforming in and of themselves hardly evidence of anti-Semitism. Unless, of course, you are going to argue that the international boycott of the 1980 Moscow Olympics was some sort of anti-Soviet/anti-Russian racism; or the popular boycotts of South Africa during apartheid were evidence of anti-Afrikaaner racism.

I hold the Israeli government to the same standards I would hold any other government presenting itself as a first-world liberal democracy. If the Israeli government wants to present itself as a sordid little authoritarian illiberal democracy dead-set on ignoring international treaties and norms to pursue irredentist claims, then I wouldn't expect much from them.

 

[Traitorfish]

In the 1970 and '80s, pro-Irish Republican activists in the United States Irish-Americans channeled funds and arms to the Provisional Irish Republican Army.

Today, pro-Palestinian activists call for non-violent boycotts.

One of these groups are generally considered to be wild-eyed extremists.

 

[luiz]

Boycotting, divestment, and no-platforming in and of themselves hardly evidence of anti-Semitism. Unless, of course, you are going to argue that the international boycott of the 1980 Moscow Olympics was some sort of anti-Soviet/anti-Russian racism; or the popular boycotts of South Africa during apartheid were evidence of anti-Afrikaaner racism.

I hold the Israeli government to the same standards I would hold any other government presenting itself as a first-world liberal democracy. If the Israeli government wants to present itself as a sordid little authoritarian illiberal democracy dead-set on ignoring international treaties and norms to pursue irredentist claims, then I wouldn't expect much from them.

Ah so let me get this straight. Governments that claim to be liberal democracies have to adhere to strict human rights standards or else they should be boycotted, their scholars denied access to foreign universities, etc. Countries that don't claim to be liberal democracies should have open trade and collaboration with the rest of the world, regardless of anything else. Makes perfect sense.

BTW, Turkey claims to be a democracy, even though it treats Kurds way worse than Israel treats Palestinians. Do you support the boycott and disinvestmebt of Turkey? What about China? They claim to be democratic too - we just don't believe them. Even North Korea claims to be democratic. Israel is not alone in claiming to be democratic while not being ruled by angels. Every country falls in this category to some degree, and Israel is better than most. At the end of the day this what matters - the country with the best democratic and human rights credentials in the region is singled out for hatred, boycotts and racist abuse - and you're fine with it.

 

[metatron]

In the 1970 and '80s, pro-Irish Republican activists in the United States Irish-Americans channeled funds and arms to the Provisional Irish Republican Army.

Today, pro-Palestinian activists call for non-violent boycotts.

One of these groups are generally considered to be wild-eyed extremists.

Let me check a random sample here.

I don't know. Maybe i misheard. But i think i missed the "non-violent boycott" part.
I'm sure it's my fault.

 

[Traitorfish]

Let me check a random sample here.

I don't know. Maybe i misheard. But i think i missed the "non-violent boycott" part.
I'm sure it's my fault.

yeah that one rando being verbally outmaneuvered by a discount colonel sanders impersonator is basically the same as NORAID fair dos.

 

[Mouthwash]

Well, this thread is going to go nowhere fast. There's nothing to talk about other than 'is Israel good or bad.'

In the 1970 and '80s, pro-Irish Republican activists in the United States Irish-Americans channeled funds and arms to the Provisional Irish Republican Army.

Today, pro-Palestinian activists call for non-violent boycotts.

One of these groups are generally considered to be wild-eyed extremists.

Did the sanctions on Baathist Iraq involve violence?

None of those things require the other but Netanyahu, Likud, and others on the Israeli far-right/settler fringe keep insisting that they do require each other and insist that it is impossible to be Jewish and not support the current Israeli government.

I think it's more that you equate 'not supporting the current Israeli government' with 'anti-Zionism.' The biggest challenger to Likud these days is Jewish Home, i.e. the settler party.

 

[r16]

BTW, Turkey claims to be a democracy, even though it treats Kurds way worse than Israel treats Palestinians.

strangely enough no Kurdish journalists were shot in the stomach while wearing PRESS on them this week . And while New Turkey is ever awesome we are yet to hear from them that there are no innocents in any targeted area . Bad things happened in the "past" when everybody was doing it , bad things are not supposed to happen in the "present" but while ı do loathe the fact that New Turkey is capable of doing stuff in the "future" what's the exact justification that bad will happen in areas not accepted by 242 , namely the West Bank and Gazze itself ? Why Israel , which is like 50 years ahead when compared to its "neighbours" , has to expand and expand ? Yard by yard , settlement house by settlement house ?

 

[Tigranes]

strangely enough no Kurdish journalists were shot in the stomach while wearing PRESS on them this week . And while New Turkey is ever awesome we are yet to hear from them that there are no innocents in any targeted area.

What is this "New" Turkey you constantly refer to? A Turkey of Erdogan as opposed to the Turkey of Ali Rıza oğlu Mustafa? Or opposed to Young Turks? Or opposed to Ottoman Empire? I mean say something definitive so that people can understand one of the many hidden undertones you use in your posting...

 

[Tigranes]

Well, this thread is going to go nowhere fast. There's nothing to talk about other than 'is Israel good or bad.'

I beg to differ, there are so many different shades of bad (and also good for that matter) that I can't help but inquire: suppose you are normal patriotic Jewish boy from Queens and regularly donate part of your allowance for planting nice green trees in Haaretz Israel. And then someone tells you that new Israeli forests are systematically planted to conceal the traces of war crimes. How does it make you feel? Just ... "bad"? Or there is a new level of bad we are talking here?

 

[Mouthwash]

I beg to differ, there are so many different shades of bad (and also good for that matter) that I can't help but inquire: suppose you are normal patriotic Jewish boy from Queens and regularly donate part of your allowance for planting nice green trees in Haaretz Israel.

You mean Eretz Yisrael?

Haaretz means the same thing, but is only ever said on its own.

And then someone tells you that new Israeli forests are systematically planted to conceal the traces of war crimes. How does it make you feel? Just ... "bad"? Or there is a new level of bad we are talking here?

Given how overpoliticized and meaningless the term is, I'd need further context to form an opinion. Kicking out some villagers from their homes in the middle of a war doesn't qualify as bad, for me.

 

[warpus]

Why would Israel bother to cover up war crimes? Don't forests also take a long time to grow? Seems like a silly plan

 

[Senethro]

I dunno. Israel seems extremely committed to victory instead of peace. Sufficiently so that they seem to intend to maintain blockaded enclaves of stateless people indefinitely, which is quite an undertaking.

I suppose there is a kind of honesty in not making treaties that you wouldn't honour like what happened with another new nation expanding its boundaries.

 

[Traitorfish]

Did the sanctions on Baathist Iraq involve violence?

The sanctions on Iraq was a near-total prohibition on trade imposed by the United Nations Security Council. The boycotts against Israel are voluntary and mostly individual consumption-habits propounded by activists. I don't really see the analogy.

 

[innonimatu]

Don't be thick. I just wonder what Israel did that was not done in spades by Turkey, or Algeria, or countless other countries around the same time. I wonder why Israel is singled out for the hatred of Corbynistas, why people who wear a jersey of the Israeli football team are subject to abuse in Paris (happened to my cousin's husband).

The racists are those singling out Israel and "zionism". The racists are Jeremy corbyn, Ken Livingston, half of Momentum.

This is false. Israel is not singled out for "hatred". What has been called for is ceasing the active support towards Israel from several governments. That this support goes on, and that Israeli governments keep attempting to play the virtuous ones, is what draws more opprobrium upon them than upon Turkey or other countries that are not getting similar support, or spreading so much propaganda.

What exactly have you ever heard from Jeremy Corbyn that can be constructed as "hatred" towards Israel? Please quote and link to the source where it was recorded and published.

Did the sanctions on Baathist Iraq involve violence?

I recall they involved a no fly-zone...

 

[metatron]

Why would Israel bother to cover up war crimes? Don't forests also take a long time to grow? Seems like a silly plan

I think this is about the symbolism of the whole thing.
You know, them muslims in that community center were not going to take over Manhattan either.

That sort of thing. But with the power gradient the other way around (hence the issue).
And with trees.

The sanctions on Iraq was a near-total prohibition on trade imposed by the United Nations Security Council. The boycotts against Israel are voluntary and mostly individual consumption-habits propounded by activists. I don't really see the analogy.

*chewing-slice-of-delicious-Israeli-tomato*
​

Hmyeah.

*chewing* *smacking*
​

I agree with you. It's not analogous.

*starting-on-next-slice-of-delicious-Israeli-tomato*​

I dunno. Israel seems extremely committed to victory instead of peace. Sufficiently so that they seem to intend to maintain blockaded enclaves of stateless people indefinitely, which is quite an undertaking.

Some qualifications could be made, say, about coservatives, the opposition, some notion of majority support, the term "extremely", what exactly that "they" we are implicitly talking about anticipate as "victory" and whether they even agree on that. etc. pp.
I take it most of that is implicit to your statement.
If so, yes, that's a valid criticism, that i tend to agree with.

I'm just saying this for one could, considering my replies to TF, mistake my overall position.

 

[Mouthwash]

The sanctions on Iraq was a near-total prohibition on trade imposed by the United Nations Security Council. The boycotts against Israel are voluntary and mostly individual consumption-habits propounded by activists. I don't really see the analogy.

Both of them are 'nonviolent' attempts to alter state behavior.

What exactly have you ever heard from Jeremy Corbyn that can be constructed as "hatred" towards Israel?

Has Richard Spencer said that he hates black people or Jews? According to him he only opposes Jewish supremacism, and thinks blacks would be better off among their own kind.

 

[luiz]

This is false. Israel is not singled out for "hatred". What has been called for is ceasing the active support towards Israel from several governments. That this support goes on, and that Israeli governments keep attempting to play the virtuous ones, is what draws more opprobrium upon them than upon Turkey or other countries that are not getting similar support, or spreading so much propaganda.

What exactly have you ever heard from Jeremy Corbyn that can be constructed as "hatred" towards Israel? Please quote and link to the source where it was recorded and published.

How does Israel claim to be any more virtuous than Turkey? Both countries (indeed like most countries) claim to be fully democratic and peaceful and respectful of human rights. No country claims to be an evil oppressive dictatorship. As I said even North Korea claims to be a democracy with full human rights and respect to international law.

It's a funny argument by Israel-haters that Israel should be held to an (impossible) higher standard because they claim to be so moral and democratic. Well, I don't see any claim they make that Turkey doesn't. So why boycott Israel and not Turkey? I can think of one reason.

As for Corbyn... He is like the preacher who is always found drunk inside a brothel but claims he was just lost. Corbyn was for years a member of private groups where anti-semitic content was the norm. He never said anything. He supported keeping an outrageously anti-semitic street mural, and then said he at the time didn't look close enough (meaning his defence is claiming to be an imbecile). Corbyn associates with and supports people whose antisemitism is not even remotely in question. There is only one honest and logical conclusion to draw from all of the above.

 

[Traitorfish]

Both of them are 'nonviolent' attempts to alter state behavior.

A blue whale and a fruit bat are both mammals, but you wouldn't readily confuse them.

 

[inthesomeday]

Equating antisemitism with anticolonialism seems to equate being Jewish with colonialism. Is that something you’d like to argue for? Because it comes out with somebody as an antisemite and I really don’t think it’s the anticolonialists.

 

[innonimatu]

Both of them are 'nonviolent' attempts to alter state behavior.

There were states policing" the UN approved sanctions on Iraq. That would be after the US government (and others) declares and enforces embargoes on Israel, prosecuting anyone who does unapproved business there. You can bet there was violence when necessary to enforce it.

Not happening? They you're not talking about the same thing.

Has Richard Spencer said that he hates black people or Jews? According to him he only opposes Jewish supremacism, and thinks blacks would be better off among their own kind.

Why stop there, we all know how it goes. Why not claim that Hitler only opposed jewish supremacism, therefore Corbin is Hitler? And anyone who disapproves of Israeli state policy is Hitler.

Can you try something new? That one of claiming all critics or Israeli state policies are nazis is old and used up.

It's a funny argument by Israel-haters that Israel should be held to an (impossible) higher standard because they claim to be so moral and democratic. Well, I don't see any claim they make that Turkey doesn't. So why boycott Israel and not Turkey? I can think of one reason.

So Luiz, will you quit attacking Corbyn if I produce evidence that he also criticized Turkey and supported action to pressure it to acknowledge past and current abuses against portions of its populations?