civlization MythsVS History

[Kupe Navigator]

do you think Civilisation should have some element of Mythology or should it be 100% pure written history?
I am Ok with some form of mythology ( as long as there is no mythological "gods") like the heroes and secret society as these aspects did have a large impact on our cultural history as well as scientific history ( Alchemy was a primitive form of a chemistry after all). We shoudln't be too upsetting how civ plays on this concept and I for one is glad that civ team is taking a chance at these new ideas.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'm fine with what they've done with it. I'm glad they didn't go overboard on it. As for the complaints about the zombies and aliens well they are at least in a scenario and not part of the main game.

That being said all the things that I would consider "fantasy" is optional to begin with in the game modes. I would include Apocalypse mode as semi-fantasy too with the soothsayer units.

I actually find SS to be more rooted in history than the Heroes and Legends game mode considering some of them are considered mythological gods from their respective cultures like Hercules, and to a lesser extent Maui in some cases. But I enjoy playing it.

 

[anonxanemone]

IMHO there is quite a bit of overlap in the mythology/history Venn diagram. Even a relatively short and recent American history is not without a little embellishment, e.g. George Washington mythos. As Napoleon once put it, "History is a set of lies agreed upon."

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Napoleon once put it, "History is a set of lies agreed upon

I don’t agree with this part as this is sort of thing that gives conspiracy theories legitimacy -things like flat earth and Qanon...

Moderator Action: Please do not derail to these current events topics. Thread will be deleted if it goes that way. leif

 

[anonxanemone]

I don’t agree with this part as this is sort of thing that gives conspiracy theories legitimacy -things like flat earth and Qanon...

Of course that quote has to be taken with a HUGE grain of salt.

 

[EgonSpengler]

I dislike what they've done so far, and I'm happy that Apocalypse, Societies and Heroes modes are all optional. I prefer Civ to be "alternative history", not completely fantastical, so I use the tech tree randomizer and Dramatic Ages every game now (even though the latter has problems of its own). I can imagine (the outlines of) versions of Societies and Heroes modes that would be more like what I'd like to see, but oh well.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

I dislike what they've done so far, and I'm happy that Apocalypse, Societies and Heroes modes are all optional. I prefer Civ to be "alternative history", not completely fantastical, so I use the tech tree randomizer and Dramatic Ages every game now (even though the latter has problems of its own). I can imagine (the outlines of) versions of Societies and Heroes modes that would be more like what I'd like to see, but oh well.

what is your opinion on the upcoming cooperation mode?

 

[Ivan Hunger]

I like the mythical stuff they've added into the game so far. They give you extra systems you can choose to invest in, thereby increasing the opportunity cost of each choice. That's what strategy games are all about.

That being said, I fully support the decision to make them fully optional for the sake of people who want historical realism. Everybody wins!

 

[EgonSpengler]

what is your opinion on the upcoming cooperation mode?

It looks promising. I hope there's a new Casus Belli related to seizing resources. Also, the preview video I saw seemed focused on Luxury Resources, and I'm hoping/anticipating that corporations can be created from all types of resources. As ever, I'm concerned about throwing the AI another curveball, but that's not really about the game modes, per se. I'm very curious to see how the super-yield tiles will play out. I'm worried that even more Science and Culture will accelerate the progression of Eras again, but if the costs to research things are adjusted upwards accordingly, then it should be fine (I already use a mod that slows down the Eras, so that may have to adjusted further to keep me from reaching the Modern Age in 1400 AD or whatever). I also hope spies and espionage are extended to include everything introduced with corporations. Maybe religion, too, come to think of it.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

I hope there's a new Casus Belli related to seizing resources.

don't get your hopes up.

. I also hope spies and espionage are extended to include everything introduced with corporations. Maybe religion, too, come to think of it.

They will only have features that are shown in the video.

 

[Manol0]

I am a hardcore history gaming fan that I generally dont like elements of fantasy being added . Heroes and legends game mode is a very cool mode as a feature and I think it was a very appealing idea by the developers since it adds fun into the game that many players enjoy.Legends and myths are a part of human culture after all. However its too much for my taste seeing King Arthur killing tanks with his sword; but its just my taste.I would enjoy this mode too; if heroes had a passive role molstly; maybe. Its very nice that developers make those modes optional so any player can choose to play as he likes. Ι have no problem even if they add Orcs; gremlins; dragons; monsters and aliens as far as I have the option to disable them.

As for the Secret Societies they existed and still exist irl. So its not that fantasy mode; if we overlook the Vampires which I consider them as something like special forces.

 

[EgonSpengler]

don't get your hopes up.

I'm not. Seems like an easy thing to add, though.

As for the Secret Societies they existed and still exist irl. So its not that fantasy mode; if we overlook the Vampires which I consider them as something like special forces.

Wizards using "ley lines" and cults of Cthulhu are real, though, eh?

 

[Kupe Navigator]

I'm not. Seems like an easy thing to add, though.


Wizards using "ley lines" and cults of Cthulhu are real, though, eh?

Alchemist are real and cults like Cthulhu are real. Trust me, I live in Korea and there are A LOT of weird cults arouns here. And I don’t know what you are talking about by wizard. There is no wizard in SS.

 

[Manol0]

Wizards using "ley lines" and cults of Cthulhu are real, though, eh?

The Ley lines have to do with "pseudoscience".Alchemy had impact in real Science development if we consider for example that early forms of gunpowder were invented by alchemists. So alchemy and "pseudoscience" in general had some kind of impact irl imo.
As for the Cultists; there are enough examples in history of secret societies which caused "loyalty flippin" revolutions against empires. For example bolsheviks inside Russian Empire were working as a secret society against the Tsar. Same with Spartacists and others who made several German Cities flip against the Kaizer in late stages of WWI and finally forced him to abdicate. So having units who cause loyalty issues to the enemy isnt that out of reality according to my point of view.
Now if those units's rituals have to do with Cthulhu ; its not neccessarily something that places them in the sphere of fantasy.

 

[Xandinho]

Well, I can tolerate fantasy as long as it's part of optional modes, not as part of the main game.
But still, I think that resources could be better used in historical game modes, such as Corporations and Monopolies.
However, I can understand that some people may like them

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

Wizards using "ley lines" and cults of Cthulhu are real, though, eh?

We don't say that the faith generated by "regular" religions created by a Great Prophet came from actual gods or divinities.
And we don't say that the loyalty drops made by Eleanor's Great Works come from shady pacts with unspeakable entities.
So why would we say that the faith generated by people believing in Old and Unspeakable gods, with Cultists able to generate so much turmoil in a society to make it seceed, would be so fantastic?
Voidsingers aren't fantasist at all. At no moment it is certified that the Old Gods exist. It is implied that they might exist, in the same way that the Gods of any religion created by a Great Prophet might exist by giving bonuses to the followers.

Also, don't forget the sociological impact of ley lines. There is a difference between "this particular place is special" and "people think this particular is special", but the differences are quite light. After all, if you say in an Empire : "this place in the middle of the woods is special", then people would tend to gather around it, and it might become centers of your civilization. The Carnutes wood in France was supposed to be a holy and sacred forest for the woods. Was it? We don't know, but around the Carnutes were then powerful tribes and important commercial hubs, because a lot of people wanted to be near the place where druids from all Gaul gathered. And if you consider that, after time, every great druid was remembered and inspired the future druids in the Carnutes, then every gathering in this place would produce new philosophical, theological, spiritual ideas that would increase trade, science and production... Exactly when a Great Person give more yields to Ley Lines.

Vampires, on the other hand... Yeah, I have no rational explanation for them. Let's put it in the same magical shenanigans for when GP teleport from city to city

 

[EgonSpengler]

Well, I can tolerate fantasy as long as it's part of optional modes, not as part of the main game.
But still, I think that resources could be better used in historical game modes, such as Corporations and Monopolies.

Right, easy enough to turn them off. I do wonder what the time and effort spent on things I don't use might have produced instead, but it's not high on my list of things to get exorcised about.

Also, don't forget the sociological impact of ley lines. There is a difference between "this particular place is special" and "people think this particular is special", but the differences are quite light. After all, if you say in an Empire : "this place in the middle of the woods is special", then people would tend to gather around it, and it might become centers of your civilization. The Carnutes wood in France was supposed to be a holy and sacred forest for the woods. Was it? We don't know, but around the Carnutes were then powerful tribes and important commercial hubs, because a lot of people wanted to be near the place where druids from all Gaul gathered. And if you consider that, after time, every great druid was remembered and inspired the future druids in the Carnutes, then every gathering in this place would produce new philosophical, theological, spiritual ideas that would increase trade, science and production... Exactly when a Great Person give more yields to Ley Lines.

It seems to me that the effect of people believing in myths and legends is covered pretty well already, by the mechanics already in the game (religion, culture, Great Works of art and literature, Wonders like Stonehenge and the Oracle, maybe district adjacencies, etc). The Secret Societies and Heroes & Legends modes seem to go beyond that, proposing to answer the question "What if vampires and ley lines and Hercules were real?" I love all that stuff, in other places. It isn't what I want Civ VI for, though.

I think it would be interesting if the game somehow included "dead ends" of societal development, but they seem to have decided not to go down those roads in developing the game. For example, there's no backsliding on the tech tree (that is, you never lose technologies once you have them). I'm okay with that, but I hope other games try some things the Civ series hasn't.

 

[Zaarin]

I don’t agree with this part as this is sort of thing that gives conspiracy theories legitimacy

Counterpoint: "Historical truth is 100% knowable and what I'm presenting you is just the facts" is almost always used to assert an agenda and to lend credence to one's own historical interpretation against others. Absolute historical truth is not knowable. No matter how much research you do--and for that matter, even if you experienced it yourself--you can never arrive at a complete or absolute understanding of the events that took place. There will always be room for interpretation. That doesn't mean that all interpretations are equally valid.

 

[Evie]

To add to that - Popular history (as distinct from scholarly history), and especially Great Men history, is pretty much modern mythology, centered on heroes, vilains and larger-than-life figures whose accomplishments explain who we are and how our world came to be as it is. We just tend skip (most) of the supernatural elements nowaday, although God does come up here and there.

Since Civ is steeped pretty deeply into modern popular history and great men theory of history, it's already pretty mythological to begin.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Vampires, on the other hand... Yeah, I have no rational explanation for them. Let's put it in the same magical shenanigans for when GP teleport from city to city

I mean "vampire" figures existed in history such as Vlad Tepes and Elizabeth Bathory. So I don't have any problem with them any more than a guild of Alchemists or a underground religious cults.