Leader Pass: Rulers of the Sahara - 2/14 Developer Livestream Discussion

[SammyKhalifa]

I usually don't bother with early game wonders. The opportunity cost is often too steep, costing me valuable time to expand. But with Ramses, I'm going to try to bang out a few. Great Bath and Etimananki would serve him well.

I'm a sucker for Temple of Artemis if there's a good spot for it.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I'm a sucker for Temple of Artemis if there's a good spot for it.

I might grab it a few eras later if it hasn't been taken, but rarely right away. I do like that one.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I was just taking a look at what we're dealing with here, and accding to the internets Etemenanaki costs 220 hammers, so 66 giveback culture or roughly one ancient civic (40-70 culture) pre-boost. So with any kind of planning you should be able to complete a couple.

​

 

[blackbutterfly]

So far they've been around 1pm EST

Excellent!

Turning history on its head playing as Cleo I'm gonna make Julius Caesar my b*tch (i.e. make Rome a vassal/ally) tomorrow.

 

[SecretWeapon]

He'll be my personal himbo as well

 

[queenpea]

Excellent!

Turning history on its head playing as Cleo I'm gonna make Julius Caesar my b*tch (i.e. make Rome a vassal/ally) tomorrow.

I miss vassals.

 

[blackbutterfly]

He'll be my personal himbo as well

 

[Zaarin]

Gaul for instance works on any kind of difficulty and the synergy doesnt rely on RNG outside player control, hence I think they are an example of good design.

I think this is the first time I've heard Gaul's design praised. I liked it on paper but found it absolutely miserable to play.

 

[SecretWeapon]

Too self centered, too gay and too in love with Hephaestion to be Cleopatra's himbo.

 

[UWHabs]

I was just taking a look at what we're dealing with here, and accding to the internets Etemenanaki costs 220 hammers, so 66 giveback culture or roughly one ancient civic (40-70 culture) pre-boost. So with any kind of planning you should be able to complete a couple.

​

There's a part of me that looks at those numbers and is like "oh, awesome, that's really cool". And then another part is like "but wait, doesn't China get basically 2 boosts when they finish a wonder?" And now I wonder which is better...

I guess the raw culture is overall nicer, since probably half the boosts that China would get are ones you might have been getting anyways. Or you just don't get them if you finish the wonder too late, whereas even if you finish this late, you still get the culture. But it does give you a little perspective on the China bonus too.

But yeah, definitely curious to see how deep Rameses can go in rushing wonders, and how they can set themselves up. You expect them to be pretty solid at running down the culture tree. Sadly other than floodplains, they really don't have anything specific to help them build wonders. And more wonders are in the science tree than the tech tree. Or if the bonus meant to be used more passively, basically like a free culture project while you're building a wonder?

 

[Bug Repellent]

I was just taking a look at what we're dealing with here, and accding to the internets Etemenanaki costs 220 hammers, so 66 giveback culture or roughly one ancient civic (40-70 culture) pre-boost. So with any kind of planning you should be able to complete a couple.

​

66 culture is MASSIVE early on. Craftsmanship costs 40 culture, but only 24 culture with the boost. Same with Foreign Trade. State Workforce and Early Empire are 70, or 42 boosted. That 68 culture gives you TWO ancient era civics (boosted), not one. Also, there are two additional, not quite so obvious benefits: free border expansion and the ability to switch policy cards quicker to optimize your game. That 68 culture is worth at least 2 border tiles worth 100-150 gold. Essentially completing a wonder gives you a culture bomb, but better, as cities usually expand to the best tiles, not just the ones around the wonder. You can get to political philosophy significantly quicker, get governor promotions and envoys quicker, more likely to hit golden ages, and so on. Getting this much culture early on is so-so good.

IMHO, if you're playing Ramses and are not chopping a couple of Ancient era wonders, you're playing him VERY wrong. I would even venture to say that you should try to buy not build units and build wonders or buildings with him instead. Get gold trading with the AI (settle on a luxury resource if available and sell the resource).

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

Mansa Musa can also get more gold than Sunidata. A trade route out of a single city with at least 9 flat Desert tiles outpaces a city with 4 GWoW in a Sunidata city without Wonders.

I think you're miscalculating, because I feel that Sundiata will have a bigger thread of incomes than Mansa Mussa.

Mansa Moussa gains +1 gold per flat desert tiles in the city. Sundiata Keita gain +4 gold per GWoW. If you have a theater square AND a suguba, that's 4 slots fo GWOW, which culminates to +16 gold per city (if you can fill all your cities, of course). You'd need 16+ flat desert tile with Mansa for it to be at the same level. And, since you need a market in every city (because Mali), you'll have the same number of trade route than Mansa Mussa.

That's quite a heavy income. It will take more time to set up than Mansa, of course, but in the long term, gold income is mathematically higher than Mansa Moussa.

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

It just seems to me that they shouldn't release content balanced for a level where so much of the content and mechanics aren't feasable anyhow.

There are several civs that work on any level though.

I think this is the first time I've heard Gaul's design praised. I liked it on paper but found it absolutely miserable to play.

Gaul is one of my favourites, especially for an early domination game that transitions into a peaceful scientific game.
The synergy is so good, and that ties the whole thing so neatly together that it feels like a joy to play and execute.
Units rush your culture, which means you can slot Agoge (+50% melee/ranged production) for even more units and culture, culminating in a very early Oligarchy for +4 melee strength.
These units also boost each other mutually to give even more combat strength, and the Gaesatae is great in the way that they don't really become that obsolete when the enemy starts getting Heavy Chariots and Swordsmen.
And if you're feeling like abusing game mechanics, you can set up the Gaul Man at Arms rush.
Add in the great +1 culture from mines, and you got a civ that is a monster for early rushes (which is a big plus on Deity), while being fantastic for scientific games in the sense that you don't really need to worry about culture because you get tons of it for free anyway.
All in all, just a great and well designed civ!

I disagree. While your capital might be focused on expansion, your other cities often build Monuments, Granaries, Watermills, and other basic infrastructure early on. Not to long after, you'll be building Libraries, Markets, and the like. All of those will give you free culture. And when you're up to 10 cities, that's a lot of culture in the midgame.

And it's pretty rare to never get a wonder, even on deity. There are almost always some available in the early game and once you start to catch up and surpass the AI, you'll have plenty to choose from. Though, I play with 6-8 players. I guess wonders might be tougher with 10-12 player maps.

Yes, but that starts kicking in when the relative culture gains start to taper off (expansion cities producing their first buildings that is).
I'm not saying it's a bad ability for that purpose, but it's more of a passive culture income for the early middle game and later, at which point the bonus doesn't seem that impressive.
Having played with being suzerain of Ayutthaya before, I never really noticed a massive difference like with Kumasi.

I do get the occasional wonders on Deity myself, but it's very rare that I get a quick Classical (and especially Ancient) era wonder because the risk is just too high in the early game.
If I do get one it's usually attempting to rush a key wonder (like me getting 7 marsh tiles, which is asking for Etemenanki), and more than half the time, it's usually game over if I fail to rush it because the AI got it first.
Something like going for Pyramids these days for instance is just asking for trouble and a restart (unless save scumming).
And this is what I don't like with this particular leader on Deity - if you can get that wonder with this guy you have an absolutely fantastic start, meanwhile if you miss it, the bonus is moot and you might have to consider restarting.

This is a "win harder" leader for lower difficulties, as I see it.
Nothing wrong with that, but it's not my cup of tea.

 

[rocksinmypath]

I find Ramses to be underwhelming. He's less interesting and less powerful than the original Qin Shi Huang. Sure, the one-time burst of 5-10 turns of culture when you build Etemenanki or Apadana is cool, but I'm going with Qin's ability to grind builders into wonders everyday of the week. And one extra charge on each builder is a top-tier ability.

As for Sundiata, I'm a bit torn. I always thought Mali was one of the weakest civs in the game, but despite that, it's also fairly well-designed. Sundiata is unlikely to change my opinion on Mali, but he does offer an interesting alternative to Musa. I like the fact that he's very focused on culture victory. I believe the most effective culture victory strategy entails building many holy sites, commercial hubs and theatre squares, and Sundiata synergizes well with all three. On top of that, the extra food from desert tiles next to the city centre makes it easy for Malian cities to reach 7 pop quickly to be able to build all three districts quickly. The problem I have with Sundiata is that his kit is an open invitation to buying up great works from other players, and I absolutely hate this game mechanic.

Cleopatra is probably the strongest of the three. She's very reminiscent of Trajan. On an Abundant resources map, she can have a much stronger start than Trajan, who, in my mind, is among the top three leaders in terms of early-game tempo (behind Hammurabi and Bull Moose Teddy). On the surface, her ability looks boring, but I think the floodplains appeal thing can be interesting to play around with especially given that she gets some boost toward faith generation, but not a ton. At the very least, I'm glad that she has a clear path to one of the victory conditions.

 

[blackbutterfly]

...but I'm going with Qin's ability to grind builders into wonders everyday of the week. And one extra charge on each builder is a top-tier ability.

If you saw SpiffingBrit's most recent Civ VI YouTube he plays Qin (Mandate of Heaven) on Marathon (+Monopolies mode) and wins an early culture victory.
It seems both personas are game breaking and exploitable in their own right.

So far each Leader Pass DLC pack has had on average 1 game breaking and/or OP leader.

I wonder which of the Rulers of Sahara will be the one?

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

Gaul is one of my favourites, especially for an early domination game that transitions into a peaceful scientific game.
The synergy is so good, and that ties the whole thing so neatly together that it feels like a joy to play and execute.
Units rush your culture, which means you can slot Agoge (+50% melee/ranged production) for even more units and culture, culminating in a very early Oligarchy for +4 melee strength.
These units also boost each other mutually to give even more combat strength, and the Gaesatae is great in the way that they don't really become that obsolete when the enemy starts getting Heavy Chariots and Swordsmen.
And if you're feeling like abusing game mechanics, you can set up the Gaul Man at Arms rush.
Add in the great +1 culture from mines, and you got a civ that is a monster for early rushes (which is a big plus on Deity), while being fantastic for scientific games in the sense that you don't really need to worry about culture because you get tons of it for free anyway.
All in all, just a great and well designed civ!

I believe @Zaarin was most bothered by the district placement restriciton, something that bothers me as well.

I don't think anyone can deny that Gaul is crazy strong or synergistic (arguably too strong?). I like the Culture they add to early warfare, though any intention of making them a defensive Civ fell flat on its face.

 

[Zaarin]

I believe @Zaarin was most bothered by the district placement restriciton, something that bothers me as well.

I don't think anyone deny that Gaul is crazy strong or synergistic (arguably too strong?). I like the Culture they add to early warfare, though any intention of making them a defensive Civ fell flat on its face.

Yeah, as a peaceful player I'm not benefiting much from Gaul's aggressive side, just some negligible culture from a couple Scouts and a few Slingers/Archers, and I found Gaul's district placement scheme frustrating rather than innovative, unlike Vietnam's. Again, I liked it on paper, but in practice I found it very dissatisfying.

 

[RulerOfDaPeople]

Does anyone know what specific time this will be released?

 

[InsidiousMage]

Does anyone know what specific time this will be released?

I believe the others were released at noon so I would image the same time for this one.

 

[RulerOfDaPeople]

I believe the others were released at noon so I would image the same time for this one.

Thanks! I can always count on you for quick answers, Mage.