[LP] Leader Pass: Rulers of England - 3/28 Developer Livestream w/ Andrew Johnson Discussion

[Kmart_Elvis]

Wait so if Harald gets 75% off and that stacks with Foreign Ministry's 50%... Does that mean levying is free???

Or he himself gets paid 25% of the levy??? Like it's 125% off, where does that money go?

 

[queenpea]

Wait so if Harald gets 75% off and that stacks with Foreign Ministry's 50%... Does that mean levying is free???

Or he himself gets paid 25% of the levy??? Like it's 125% off, where does that money go?

My guess is it's 50% off of the remaining 25%.

 

[queenpea]

Is the News just the game stream?

I hope not...that would be super lame.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Does it stack with Foreign Ministry ?

My knowledge of this indicates that yes. It will stack.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

So Sumeria get a 50% discount for levying city-states units, but Haral got 75%

I know that a lot of NFP and LP abilities were just "old abilities, but better !", but it was always in a sort of roundabout way, like: "Portugal have a different way of gaining trade routes than Mali, and their trade routes have a different way of gaining additional yields, it's just that those different ways came out as more efficient or reliable than Mali". There, it's just as is they gave up and simply said: "Well, give them exactly the same ability, but with bigger numbers". Not even if a different yields, a different technique, a different way, no. It is, verbatim, the same ability, just with a bigger number.

I am very disappointed with this last pass. As I said, Harald is just Sumeria's ability (but better), with, on top, Tamar and Gorgo ability mashed together. Absolutely nothing new, and absolutely not interesting. With Gorgo, you had to go the cultural route; with Tamar, the religious one. With Harald, well, everything is just given to you on a silver platter. No need for strategy: you can just go with the flow and decide the last minute what you want to do. In a game prioritizing strategy as much as Civ, it appears really weak.

Victoria is... terribly bland. Terribly powerful, true, but terribly lame. More production from things that you will always build because of the CUA? Steampunk Victoria is just: "Hey! You have this new leader, with whom you have absolutely nothing different to do with her! Just play as if you had no leader, and you'll do exactly what you need to do!". Which, in itself, is not necessarily a bad design if there is good synergy... But as a new leader -worse, a new persona- it's just ridiculous. "We'll give you a new way to play this civ, and this new way is to simply not do the specific things you did with other leaders, while not adding new things to do!". I mean... why?

Elizabeth is the only one getting out, in a way. New trade routes is kind of gimmicky (especially since we had Mali, Phoenicia and Portugal having massive amount of new trade routes), but, hey, it's not bad in itself. It's a heavy naval game, since you'll build harbors to gain Great Admiral to gain trade routes that will be more profitable with city-States, and you want to control the seas by plundering other trade routes. Thematic, works well together and with the CUA, not very powerful but kind of nice. But nothing exciting neither.

Overall, not the best note to finish the LP with.

 

[queenpea]

And there was no additional news...

 

[AntSou]

And there was no additional news...

Maybe during the April stream.

 

[UWHabs]

Even if the abilities in the last set of leaders aren't the most original, at least I think they all good good. Production is good, trading is good, and while Harald is a little repetitive with Mathias, levying isn't used that much and I do wonder how much of those other yields he'll be able to make use of.

 

[queenpea]

So Sumeria get a 50% discount for levying city-states units, but Haral got 75%

I know that a lot of NFP and LP abilities were just "old abilities, but better !", but it was always in a sort of roundabout way, like: "Portugal have a different way of gaining trade routes than Mali, and their trade routes have a different way of gaining additional yields, it's just that those different ways came out as more efficient or reliable than Mali". There, it's just as is they gave up and simply said: "Well, give them exactly the same ability, but with bigger numbers". Not even if a different yields, a different technique, a different way, no. It is, verbatim, the same ability, just with a bigger number.

I am very disappointed with this last pass. As I said, Harald is just Sumeria's ability (but better), with, on top, Tamar and Gorgo ability mashed together. Absolutely nothing new, and absolutely not interesting. With Gorgo, you had to go the cultural route; with Tamar, the religious one. With Harald, well, everything is just given to you on a silver platter. No need for strategy: you can just go with the flow and decide the last minute what you want to do. In a game prioritizing strategy as much as Civ, it appears really weak.

Victoria is... terribly bland. Terribly powerful, true, but terribly lame. More production from things that you will always build because of the CUA? Steampunk Victoria is just: "Hey! You have this new leader, with whom you have absolutely nothing different to do with her! Just play as if you had no leader, and you'll do exactly what you need to do!". Which, in itself, is not necessarily a bad design if there is good synergy... But as a new leader -worse, a new persona- it's just ridiculous. "We'll give you a new way to play this civ, and this new way is to simply not do the specific things you did with other leaders, while not adding new things to do!". I mean... why?

Elizabeth is the only one getting out, in a way. New trade routes is kind of gimmicky (especially since we had Mali, Phoenicia and Portugal having massive amount of new trade routes), but, hey, it's not bad in itself. It's a heavy naval game, since you'll build harbors to gain Great Admiral to gain trade routes that will be more profitable with city-States, and you want to control the seas by plundering other trade routes. Thematic, works well together and with the CUA, not very powerful but kind of nice. But nothing exciting neither.

Overall, not the best note to finish the LP with.

I agree with this -- these three feel a bit underwhelming compared to the Great Builders drop.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was the first pack, with Lincoln, the first time they played with game mechanics that were developed outside of Vanilla? This drop feels especially base game.

When constrained to base game abilities, it's hard to design 60+ leaders with mechanics that do not feel repetitive.

 

[InsidiousMage]

while Harald is a little repetitive with Mathias

The big difference between them is that Harald gets a levying discount while Mathias gets an upgrade discount, which I think makes Harald a lot better for early conquests whereas Mathias has to build up to them.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Historical side note: After William took over England, a bunch of former English nobles went into exile and also joined the Varangian Guard. They performed excellent service to the Emperor and were granted a new homeland to settle on the Byzantine frontier in Crimea. It didn't last long in the face of invaders from the East, but for a brief time it was the original New England.

 

[Xandinho]

And there was no additional news...

Honestly, I doubt they would announce anything big on these livestreams.

 

[Harald Longface]

A bit of an underwhelming pack to end it on if you ask me. I did like the livestream a lot however, very charismatic bunch!

 

[queenpea]

Honestly, I doubt they would announce anything big on these livestreams.

Right, but there was a reason to hope when they had teased actual news.

I suppose, as well, that the mysterious, additional, unexplained Steam download was just a red herring.

I had my hopes up for a bonus leader, or a couple of new wonders.

 

[Josephias]

So Sumeria get a 50% discount for levying city-states units, but Haral got 75%
(...)
I am very disappointed with this last pass. As I said, Harald is just Sumeria's ability (but better), with, on top, Tamar and Gorgo ability mashed together. Absolutely nothing new, and absolutely not interesting. With Gorgo, you had to go the cultural route; with Tamar, the religious one. With Harald, well, everything is just given to you on a silver platter. No need for strategy: you can just go with the flow and decide the last minute what you want to do. In a game prioritizing strategy as much as Civ, it appears really weak.

While I agree with Victoria's (veery bland) and Elizabeth's (favorful but nothing to write home about) analysis, I've to disagree with VaragHarald. The "fun" point in there is he gets Tamar & Gorgo ability BUT only for levied units, that, of course you can get cheap, but still need to pay for, and serve you only for a handful of turns.

That forces VaragHarald to a "City-State Quest" game, and to an initial commercial/gold game (exploration and trade are fitting for the civ), because if you cannot levy units from city states, you essentially have nothing as LUA. And you'll want to keep fighting and levying city state units, to keep your ¿pillage? ¿cross-culture-war-brothers-influence? comming in. Indeed, I think makes for a different game focus that I think might prove fun.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Right, but there was a reason to hope when they had teased actual news.

I suppose, as well, that the mysterious, additional, unexplained Steam download was just a red herring.

I had my hopes up for a bonus leader, or a couple of new wonders.

We debunked that a couple of weeks ago. It was for Caesar.

 

[queenpea]

We debunked that a couple of weeks ago. It was for Caesar.

Must have missed that...

 

[Josephias]

Now that I've posted on-topic, just a minor comment on this perception...

I honestly don't think Spain deserves another one. Isabella would be another religious fanatic like Philip II

Considering both only as religious fanatics denotes a very protestant-centrict vision of history. Not only is "fanaticism" might have had internal political reasons (union of different cultures for Isabella, and actual political rebelion in the form of religious disparity for Philip), but there is more sides to their personality (discovery and defense/interest in assimilating discovered cultures for Isabella <- something which was not common at the era, that might have preferred outright subjugation), and administration-builidng (including espionage and maybe excessive micromanagement) for Philip II (which might even work to provide him with a Persona).
And then, as stateds, you can extend to middle ages (Alfonso X, while king of Castille only, might be accepted as relevant for all spain), and to the early Bourbons (Charles III, as renovator inside Spain and diplomat-politician in the agreements on the lands that now are US) can offer diferent focuses. I'd even suggest some 2nd republic leader for a very cultural-focused Spain that might set the basis for nowadays tourism-focus (but here you get tricky with the choices)

I've to agree most of the multiple-leader Civs at the moment could be better or equally suited to Spain for getting a 2nd leader, but I'll defend Spain might be for sure in the next tier.

 

[mrwho]

Kinda puzzling they chose to end with this pack instead of one of the more interesting ones.

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

Long post inbound.

Okay so, people have mentioned that Steamed Victoria's ability is obviously very strong, but I wanna give everyone a picture of exactly how strong.

Here's a conservative example. Say you have a city with a +3 Production Industrial Zone. Then you slot in Craftsmen to double that adjacency bonus to +6 Production. Already, not an insubstantial amount. But, of course, this isn't a blank city. It has 1 Mine and an instance of Iron you haven't even improved yet. That mine gives its grassland hill tile +2 Production, totaling to +3 Production. The Iron, also on a grassland hill, produces +3 Production thanks to the extra Production on strategic resources.

Add that all up, and our city is producing +12 Production.

And then we build a Workshop. That gives us +3 Production, increasing our total to +15. Steamed Victoria's ability gives us +10% Production, making our total +16.5 Production.

If we weren't playing Victoria, we would have only made 12 Production. Victoria, in a small, 2 population city with only one mine, one nice Industrial Zone, and one source of Iron, is giving us +4.5 Production.

But what about a more liberal example?

Say this city instead has 4 mines, and one of them is an Iron mine. They're all on plains hills too, so the tiles naturally have +2 Production. We've recently researched Industrialization and built Ruhr Valley, meaning each of our hills with mines produces +6 Production, and the one with Iron gets an additional extra +2 from Vicky. From mines alone this is +26 Production.

The Industrial Zone has an adjacency of +5 doubled to +10 with Craftsmen. We have a Workshop giving us +3 and a powered Factory which gives us +7 (normally +3 but Workshop of the World buffs it). Our Industrial Zone, including buildings, is giving us +20 Production. Combine that with our mines and we already have +46.

Say this city also gets +4 Production from domestic trade routes. Our total is now +50.

Ruhr gives us +20% Production, and Steamed Vicky's bonus from IZ buildings gives us another +20%. 140% of 50 is 70 Production, 12.4 of which came from Vicky.

TL;DR:she's really good