DR 01- The Greek Domination

[Formula51]

Hi regoarrarr!

I think it's alright with DR, as there is spots open still.

If you need some SG etiquette rules, here are the LKendter rules:

The following tactics are PROHIBITED:

RoP Rape - if you have to ask...

RoP Abuse that includes things such as irrigating all tiles with a city building wonders, denying resources with a RoP, putting a unit to block a land bridge, etc.

Scout resource denial - parking a scout on a resource, as the AI won't ask scouts to leave. The same scenario also applies to workers.

False Peace Treaties (must wait for the 20 years to end).

The negative science exploit - you can run a huge deficit (-250 / turn) of negative cash with a token penalty of one lost worker / cheap building. If cash will go below zero, the research level must be dropped.

Ship chaining exploit - you can move a ship, unload troops to another ship, move that ship, etc. This allows you to ship an indefinite distance, and that is why I consider it an exploit.

Resources disconnect / connect exploit - I consider most resource tactics fine. Delaying to hook a resource, trading it away etc is fine. The exploit is to do this every turn. Build a stack of horses, connect saltpeter, upgrade to cavalry, and disconnect.

Palace Jump - You abandon the capital city to move the palace to a new location. If you want to move the palace, build a new palace.

Mass troop jumping - You can't give away a give a city to transport a large amount of troops to another land mass.


Standard LK house rules:
1) Worker automation of any kind is prohibited.
2) No worker purchases during the first 50 turns to avoid civ crippling.
3) Declaring war / demanding leave solely for the purpose of getting out of trade deals. This includes nonsense spying simply to force a war. Stealing techs is fine.
4) Even if not covered under exploits listed, please try not to use tactics that take advantage of holes in the game design.
5) Our trading reputation is golden - please respect it.
6) Complete your turn. It is frustrating to get a 1/2 completed turn.
7) Once you post a skip notice it is irrevocable.
8) If I skip a player to due a missed got it, or over due turn the turn is invalid if the next player has posted a got it.

I don't think that we need to follow 7 & 8, as DR said that he wouldn't be stingy about time limits and such.

Jurimax, I think it would only be good for short wars, with lots of luxes, but we cannot guarantee that we will have either luxes or a short war, as the AA will be preperation for large scale MA warmongering. But, we could use it anyway for trade bait, as the AI values gov't techs very highly

 

[regoarrarr]

Great. When will I be up? I've subscribed to the thread, so I guess I'm just waiting.

 

[Formula51]

He should eventually get on and fix the roster.

BTW, turn log will be up shortly.

 

[Formula51]

4000 BC - Worker E, as I want to see if SE is a good position to settle. Worker finds a lot of forest, and silk as i suspected.
I see coast at the edge of the Black, and decide to go NE with the settler, as I do not like to have coastal tiles for an inland city, because for them coast squares are always 1f 2g, which isn't any good.

3950 BC - Athens founded, and CB popped from a hut! Starts warrior. Worker moves to BG to work it. Start Pottery @ max sci.

3900 BC - Worker Mines BG

3850 BC -

3800 BC -

3750 BC -

3700 BC - Warrior completes, starts exploring.

3650 BC -

3600 BC - Worker completes mine, goes W to BG to work.

3550 BC - worker starts mine on BG, we meet an incan scout.

3500 BC - 2nd Warrior completes

3450 BC - Athens expands

3400 BC - finish warrior, put on MP duty, begin prebuild for granary

3350 BC - pottery finishes, start writing @ min (42 @ max versus 49 turns @
min)

3300 BC -

3250 BC - worker completes mine, begins road to connect mined BG's


3200 BC -

3150 BC -

3100 BC - nada

3050 BC - see a incan settler pair, i think we're boxed in , veto 2nd road
build, send worker to chop forest.

3000 BC - nada

Some thoughts: Well, we are in for an AA war for space, as those damn incans are boxing us in. Not very many food bonuses, I think a city next to one of the cows is going to be a settler factory, albeit a slow one. Need a good city dotmap. the settler pair is going for the wines.

Screenie:



Save: SAVE

 

[ghostbuster]

Well I dont think you did too bad, we got the surrounding area explored, spotteed some lux's (wines + silks) We need to get control of those wines especially if we are going to go REP, but I dont think so because we will NEED to war with the Inca (thank god it wasnt Persia or a civ with a GOOD early UU)

Did you trade with the Inca at all or check what techs they were up/down. We do not have the greatest starting position, especially after you told us that we are getting to be blocked. Since we are blocked in we will need some coastal cities so we can build curraghs and get contact with other civs. I say we build our next city where your warrior is standing (SW of the cows by the river), as we can get those whales in city radius if we build a temple.

I just pray we can get a hold of some iron or horses because we will NEED to attack Inca very soon, the good thing about an early war as Greek will be that we will probably not lose many of our cities due to the hoplite, the bad thing is is the early GA, but we need to attack soon.

All in all a good set of first turns

Dragon your up mate,

ghost

 

[Formula51]

The incan settler pair is @ the wines.

They are up masonry & WC, and are down alphabet. There is 40-some turns till we get writing. DR, I set up a worker to chop the forest to get shields for a granary.

Also, I think a tighter build should suffice for now, as most of our cities should stay small as we don't have very many luxes.

I can get a dotmap up, but be warned, I'm not all that experienced at it.

 

[regoarrarr]

The incan settler pair is @ the wines.

They are up masonry & WC, and are down alphabet. There is 40-some turns till we get writing. DR, I set up a worker to chop the forest to get shields for a granary.

Also, I think a tighter build should suffice for now, as most of our cities should stay small as we don't have very many luxes.

I can get a dotmap up, but be warned, I'm not all that experienced at it.

I didn't see any settler pair at the wines?

I'll give a try at a dotmap too, but I'm not that good either. Maybe if we're each half-good we can get a good one up?

 

[Formula51]

Dotmap (not the best , would like input):



The wines are under fog of war, saw the pair pass by, then lost sight, but AI's like to settle resources.

 

[regoarrarr]

That's about what I had (I made my dotmap but as I was trying to figure out how to upload you had already posted ). I'll see if I can upload it. My western 2 sites were the same as yours, but I put the bottom one SE of the silks, instead of S. Yours might be better though since it gives another city SE of Athens.

I also agree that the city with the wines should be the next one settled, if we can get there before the Incas. If not, then the one on the N edge with the cow/river.

A little micro-managing nitpick. First of all, I'm not the world's best MMer, but I do know a few things. In other succession games I've seen, it's been appropriate for people to point out moves, so here goes. I hope you take it in the spirit of how it is intended.

It's almost never a good idea for a worker to leave a tile without roading, especially early on. Reason being is that when you have to go back and road it, you waste a worker turn. On Monarch, it probably won't matter, but at harder levels it could be crucial.

So, I'd have mined/roaded the BG SW of Athens first before moving to the BG W of that. Also, before playing, the next player should open up Athens and make sure the 2nd citizen is on the roaded/mined BG instead of the non-roaded non-mined one

And, I hate to keep bringing things like this up, but just pointing out things that I'm seeing, but as it currently stands, if we forest chop where the worker stands, we'll waste most of the chop.

Granary is 60 shields. Athens is currently at 28 shields with 4 spt. Once it grows next turn, it will auto-assign the BG, and get 6 shields.

So we'll be at 34 shields, 6 spt, and the worker starts chopping (takes 4 turns). When it finishes, Athens is at 58 shields (34+4*6), so it takes 2 more to complete the granary, and 8 of the 10 shields are wasted.

We can MM a bit to get the granary in 4 by working the forest silk for 2 of the next 4 turns. At the cost of 2 food total, but we're also +2 gold. Probably worth it. If we wait 1 turn to start our chop, we won't waste it. If that's the plan, it would be something like

Turn 1: Grow to size 3, 34 shields, 6 spt
Turn 2: 40 shields, 6 spt, start chop
Turn 3: 46 shields, change from BG to silk, 7 spt
Turn 4: 53 shields
Turn 5: Granary completes (60 shields), change back to the 2 fpt BG, so 6 spt. IBT after this turn, the chop completes and whatever is chosen next has 16 shields in the chop. I'd vote for either settler or barracks.

Does this all make sense? In my defense, I'm not quite this meticulous in my solo games since I don't have the patience, but when I have an evening to look at a save that I can't play....

 

[DragonRunner]

Reg, that plan sounds good to me. I'll try it the best I can, as I'm not the best at micromanagement ( I don't do it much). I would move the pink dot maybe to the hill as I would rather have a city on the sea than on the river, esp. in tundra. Plus, It causes less overlap with the yellow.
Boy, this seems like a new person thread. I'm the senior member right now and I only have 1 SG under my belt. which, btw, we just won.
Roster-
Formula51- Just Played
DragonRunner-UP!
Ghostbuster- on deck
reg
*open*

 

[regoarrarr]

Hopefully it's not too complicated. The only things to remember are:

1. Don't chop right away (spacebar on the worker the first turn). Wastes a worker turn but that's better than wasting 14 shields

2. Change to the silk after 2 turns (Athens will say 3 turns to granary, but once you change over it will drop to 2)

3. AFter the granary is built, make sure to choose something that is at least 16 shields.

As for moving pink west, I agree with you about liking cities on the coast, but I was trying to not spread things out too much since we're not ever going to get to hospitals. It might be possible to put my pink dot where you suggested and then put another city to the south (also on the coast).

But since an Incan settler pair has been spotted, any dotmaps we make now will probably be null and void once they settle - we'll have to incorporate that city into our plans.

 

[Formula51]

Well whoops, that was definately a few moves, thanks for pointing those out.

Anyway, the BG wasn't roaded because I obviously didn't count how many shields were going towards the granary. The shields from the forest chop should go to a settler, which we desperately need!

Looking at the plains cow site, (the one which is most likely to be settled) there's a whale(2f1s), cow(3f2s), and 2 BG's(2f2s) this would be after improvements of course. thats 3 surplus fpt and 9 spt, what can we make of that?

EDIT: I much favour a tighter build, because, as reg stated, we sure as hell aren't getting hospitals.

 

[DragonRunner]

OK, things are not so pretty, but I think they're workable.
IT-8 turns to Granary, growth in 1
1.nada
I.T.-Incans found Tiwanaku, claiming 2 wines. I suspect that the mountain has iron on it, as Tiwanaku is far from their capitol.
2. Switch laborer to silks, start chop.
3.nada
4. Athens- Granary->Settler
5. chop finished, worker roads.
6. We are boxed in by the Incas.
I.T.- athens completes settler, starts hoplite.
7.nada
8.writing got turned off, I guess by loss of revenue due to settler/smaller pop. Sci to 20, due in 38 turns.
9 worker starts road on silks
10. nada
THe settler is in place to found Sparta, and we may be able to buy WC off Inca. Archer-Hoplite rush on inca essential. 6-7 archers and 3-4 hoplites to take out the Incas.
Roster
Formula 51
DragonRunner-Just played
GhostBuster-UP!
reg-on deck

 

[Formula51]

Very, very much suggest Math for cats.

arty rocks the casbah.

want me to post a screenie?

 

[DragonRunner]

Yes, please. It aint working for me.

 

[Formula51]

Screenies:





First off, I disagree on the hoplite build, as we need any settlers we can get to fill the spaces. Second, I have another stab at dotmapping, as we need a tight build to break out of the box the incans have put us in.

 

[regoarrarr]

I agree we need settlers, but we can't build a settler right now - we can't have our capital at pop 1 all the time. In fact, if we changed to settler right now, I don't think it would be up to size 3 by the time we got 30 shields.

I do think we should change the build though - to a barracks. We don't want to be building regular troops if we can help it. With growth, the barracks will be built in 7 turns. I know we're 1 turn into roading the silks, but instead of 5 more turns to road the silk, if we chop for 4 turns and then road for 3, that would get the barracks earlier at a loss of 2 worker turns.

I entertained the thought of sending our 3 current warriors all to the Incan city (with maybe a hoplite) to try and take it while it can't have more than 1 spearmen in it, but I think that's too risky. But we need to get rid of that ASAP. FYI Alphabet plus all our gold (78gp) is "close" to getting WC.

The dot by the grassland cow can get 4 fpt after the cow is irrigated, enough for 5 turn settlers, or 5 turn settler/warriors, depending on how many spt we can get.

ETA - Settler should definitely move 1W so as to get on the coast as well as eventually pull in the whale

 

[ghostbuster]

****

I ****ING HAD MY WHOLE THING WRITTEN OUT AND ACCIDENTALLY ERASED IT

**** **** ****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sorry for my profanity, i will post in the morning when i have cooled down... because its 12 here and i muist go to bed

sorry mates

 

[Formula51]

Wow, that really sucks GB. I think the computer needs a for that one.

Agree with the barracks build, and by my counting, we have about 6-7spt @ size 5, which is quite perfect for a factory.

 

[regoarrarr]

Yeah - I've heard of people typing out their reports in notepad due to forum flakiness. My post above I thought got deleted in an IE crash but luckily it posted.

I think that Athens should be our military powerhouse. At size 5, it will work 4 BGs and the silk, which will be at least 10 shields, which is an archer or hoplite every other turn. If we get it to 6 or 7, we might be able to massage it to 15 shields, which would be a swordsman every other turn (or horseman I think). How many content citizens do we get at Monarch? I think 3, in which case we could be 6 with no lux tax with the silk and one MP.

It does need to push out probably one more settler (to go SW to the grassland cow), and probably a worker or two. But that SW city (Thermopylae?) will be our settler factory.

City center 2f 1s
Irrigated Cattle 4f 1s
Mined BG 2f 2s
Mined grass 2f 1s
Silk Forest 1f 2s

We can probably grow in 6 turns, doing 3-3-4 fpt (switching off the silk to a grassland every 3rd turn). If I'm counting right, those 6 turns will give
40 shields, enough for a warrior and a settler.

Athens, after the settler should probably build about 5-6 archers with 2-3 hoplites (hoping we get WC soon) and then take Tiwanaku and anything else we can manage.

I'm off work today, so I can play whenever ghostbuster posts his turn.

Also, at least one of our warriors should try to go through Incan territory. We'll have 2 turns before he demands we leave - which might be enough to get us out the other side - we need to meet more people.