All Leaders Challenge Game 19: Sumer/Gilgamesh

[Gr8scott]

Well my vote would be to take the peace offer that includes NY.

Use the peace to organize your forces and build them up a bit. After 10 turns, be ready to concentrate your fire (which is what gives the AI fits anyway) and cripple George for good. Perhaps use spies to keep an eye on what George is doing with his war machine to better counter his stack.

Keeping the war going could be good or could be bad. IMO the peace offer with NY is a known good option. Take the sure thing and move on!

GS

 

[athelious]

This is a tough spot, you need this war to be over quickly but I would still take the peace for 10 and NY. Remember this war was started by Washington before you were ready. That means he built up a significant force for the war as well. This has caused this war to be an uphill battle and now he has military tech parity (except for trebs) which could slow it down more.

The problem with waiting for guilds/knights (hopefully Siting bull is researching it now, or you will beat one of the other leaders to astronomy), is time and money.

Question: do you get NY's cultural boundaries with the trade?

If so, after the break you could probably take the two cities north of your capital (if you have enough culture from your wonders) and then take a break to catch up with your economy.

You can worry about finishing him easily later on once you have a tech advantage. You can't afford that whole continent now anyways. I really don't see anyone vassalizing Washington from the other continent anytime soon. If Shaka does vassalize Hannibal or Cyrus that would be a signal to finish Washington off.

Unless you don't feel your economy is salvageable quickly then you may have to finish him now.

 

[Validator]

Validator your experience of losing CR3 Maces obviously shows a failure to bring along the forces you would need to hold what you have just taken. Washington has no tactical advantage. He has a stack near one of his cities. Assuming that Sis would just wait to be attacked in Chicago is just plain stupid.

Sis has garrisons in other cities that he doesn't need. Those troops could and should be sent to LA. There's no need to defend SF as well.

Slavery is one of the default war-fighting civics. I'm suggesting that he go back into Slavery and start whipping. Losing cities and retaking them is part and parcel of fighting wars as is miscounting enemy troops, which is why you whip.

Washington is offering all his money 230 gold. He hasn't started seriously upgrading his units. Spears, swords, axes and archers are preferable foes to longbows, crossbows and maces. The more modern units will be faced after 10 turns of peace. Not facing equal level troops is a major plus for not taking peace now. Sisiutil may have to wait for Guilds and Knights before trying to finish off Washington.

I think you've underestimated the threat posed by Washington's counterattack force. While 5 maces, 9 cats, 2 HAs, 2 LBs and a crossbow aren't enough to recapture the three cities that have been taken they are enough to cause serious damage to Sisiutil's war effort. The recapture of LA or the loss of a number of units in his attack force would cause Sisiutil a lot more delay than 10 turns of peace. And that's assuming there aren't any more American units lurking nearby to cause more problems.

You indicate that it would be a mistake for Sisiutil's troops to just wait in Chicago, but your alternative (moving them toward NY) would make them even more vulnerable IMO. The force in Chicago consists of only 3 defenders (a combat 4 mace, a pike and a crossbow) with 17 attackers (7 CR maces, 6 cats and 4 trebs) and a medic 3 chariot. Which units would you leave to defend Chicago and which would you move to NY? It seems that any way you split them up they'd become an easy target for the American army.

I'm not sure where your concern for upgrades for American units is coming from. Of the 25 American units that are visible only 1 needs an upgrade (an axe in Buffalo). Washington has had Feudalism for a long time so there probably aren't any more American archers left. The few axes/swords that might be left could just as easily be upgraded while the war is going as during peace. You're mistaken about the gold situation BTW. Washington currently has no gold available to offer for peace, probably because of upgrades that have been happening.

I agree with you on Slavery being a powerful war civic, and I think it was a mistake for Sisiutil to change out of it. But with all the criticism he's been receiving over frequent civic changes I don't see him starting the next round with a change to Slavery.

 

[Validator]

Question: do you get NY's cultural boundaries with the trade?

No, you don't get any culture when you get a city in exchange for peace.

So Sisiutil is going to have to resume the war ASAP to take the cultural pressure off of NY and Chicago.

 

[gallego]

This is one reason why I don't give city raider promotions to all my attacking stack. You only need that for the first few to break through the toughtest defenders; for the remainder, you are going to get 90%+ odds anyway and it's better to have combat promotions for a more versatile force.

 

[shyuhe]

No, you don't get any culture when you get a city in exchange for peace.

So Sisiutil is going to have to resume the war ASAP to take the cultural pressure off of NY and Chicago.

However, if you get a city in exchange for peace, it comes with 0% culture of the gifting civ. So as long as another city's cultural pressure doesn't hit the center tile of the gifted city, you'll be safe from revolts.

 

[dowski]

This is one reason why I don't give city raider promotions to all my attacking stack. You only need that for the first few to break through the toughtest defenders; for the remainder, you are going to get 90%+ odds anyway and it's better to have combat promotions for a more versatile force.

Yeah, I think you are right. You tend to fight a lot of battles in the field against non-pushover enemies, and those combat and drill promoted troops come in handy there.

dowski

 

[swordmaster29]

Just a couple of cents from a virtual non-poster. I would definitely go for peace, and definitely try to get NY for it (which I has been said can be done). Though, what about trying to go for Seattle? Seattle is further from Washington, and so should be less culturally pressed than New York. I realize that getting New York would relieve the pressure on Chicago from New York, but you are trading cultural pressure on one city for pressure on another. Also, I think Philly is putting culture on Chicago, so it may be a trade for 2 cities that are culturally pressured.

If you can get Seattle, and I'm reading the map correctly, it's also more of a production center than New York, which should help with building units for the end of peace. I generally don't like to do it, but you might want to consider using stacks of workers to quickly bring online some improvements in San Francisco during a short peace.

I would also advise that you continue the war almost immediately after the 10 turns (if Washington doesn't do it for you). The way that I see this working is that if you can get enough units out to burn Buffalo, take NY and/or Philly, and defend against washington, you can then do another 10 turn peace to re-establish yourself.

If you do chose to go this route, I'd take some of the southern cities off of military production during the second war. Depending on the financial state of the empire, I would like to see a couple more workers come out of those southern cities (where it takes forever to get a unit to the front line). I'm seriously concerned about what you'll look like if you push too fast, manage through military tact to take everything of Washington's (take or burn), and then try to remain anything but easy pickings for the other continent. I would NOT say this game is lost though. From what I can surmise, you are probably producing about as much as Washington, and at a relative tech parity. I don't know what Cyrus or Hannibal think of Washington, but I can't imagine he has much to offer them. Once you get Washington out of the picture, you can worry mainly on your infrastructure, as the other continent worries about their issues.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

My random thoughts on this:

- Accept peace for NY, rebuild and relaunch attack in 10 turns.

- You want to be Shaka's friend. If Shaka is friendly with you and you own one continent while Shaka owns the other but through vassals you should be able to win. Is it worth declaring on Hannibal to get some mutual struggle points with Shaka?

- You want Washington to be Shaka's enemy. Can you bribe Shaka to war with Washington for cash? At this point its likely to be a phony war and Washington is unlikely to vassal to Shaka if you are doing the damage. If you can't bribe for cash now keep checking in the future. Maybe a bribe to not trade with Washington could be achieved.

- Gilgamesh is get for a spy economy. Aim for Nationalism for the spy bonus and build your cheap castles. Leave some poor land unsettled so that Shaka or someone else can build a city there and reduce your espionage penalty. Be very careful about stealing from Shaka though - I would focus your efforts elsewhere until you are quite a bit stronger.

- Consider leaving Washington alive but with one city at the end. He can act as a magnet for any warmonger ambitions and you won't get any vassal penalties on relations - in fact you can join in the fun and gain some points.

Good luck!

 

[swordmaster29]

- You want Washington to be Shaka's enemy. Can you bribe Shaka to war with Washington for cash? At this point its likely to be a phony war and Washington is unlikely to vassal to Shaka if you are doing the damage. If you can't bribe for cash now keep checking in the future. Maybe a bribe to not trade with Washington could be achieved.

There are 2 points against this:
1) Shaka doesn't know Washington, and thus you cannot get him to DoW on Washington.
2) Having Washington's land is much better than having Washington end up Shaka's vassal.

 

[PericlesOfAthen]

I agree. Even with one city if Washington became Shaka's vassal it would give him a landing spot on Sisiutil's continent. Too dangerous to give Shaka any toehold.

 

[gallego]

...Washington is unlikely to vassal to Shaka if you are doing the damage.

Is there a way to know this, or is there some predictable formula? It seems like many times AIs becomes vassals to other powers when you are attacking them.

 

[Refar]

I am not 100% sure, as i did not checked the code. But from what the patch 3.13 log says and from my experience...

While a war is in progress the loosing AI will capitulate only to the Civ that done the most damage. If one (the one that done the most damage) ends the war, the AI might capitulate to the other enemy. I also seen AI's becomming vassal to a power not involved in the war as soon as the war was over - right next turn after peace broke out.

Overall i think here Sisiutil has nothing to gain from bribing Shaka to declare on Washington. Left aside the fact, that shake do not know Washington yet...

 

[swordmaster29]

According to this post Sis will have to have twice the power, twice the land, as well as being perceived to be winning the war. My guess is that Shaka fills the first two requirements pretty easily (not looking at the save, just the screenshots). I fear that bringing Shaka in and having him take a city will be all that's needed for him to capitulate, even if Sis has done more damage (he won't fill the other reqs). I can't be sure that this will happen, but I really don't think we want to bring Shaka in. Too much of a risk of making this an even MORE difficult game to win.

 

[Kev]

I'm wondering why Washy has some iron mined and roaded. Was this not pillaged at some point - perhaps they were rebuilt...

Might not be a bad investment to have spies continually pillaging those spaces - assuming we have enough spy-points to do so during peace. It'd be nice to limit the supply of maces that Washy can put into the field.

Once hostilities start again, might not be a bad deal to pillage with spies/units as well.

 

[Scarredroman]

The question is whether Sisiutil can continue the war and wipe Washington out or should make peace taking New York now and spend 10 turns building a counter to the American stack of doom and position his forces to attack American cities, the frontline in a few moves.

Even during peace, Sisiutil really needs to be in slavery to whip and chop units and needed buildings. Washington is likely to use his stack to take Apache and gain access to horses. He may even refound Tatar. Shaka may find him and attack him. Worse, they may become the best of friends.

At war, I give that stack only 20% chance of going to Chicago and similar percentages to LA or SF and 40% to defend the Washington area. Whipping and chopping HA provides a counter to the catapults in the stack.

Sisiutil needs to be able to focus on cultural building and libraries in peace. That's why I think Washington has to be fought to a fnish without an interim peace.

 

[KMadCandy]

Washington is likely to use his stack to take Apache and gain access to horses.

he certainly could do both. but it sounds like you think they're the same thing? S hasn't posted a map with resources showing in a while. the horses are 4 tiles east of Apache's BFC, so Ponyville would require a brand new city. that's better for us than him starting with a whippable 4-pop city. i'd not be surprised if he founds Ponyville tho. he is an AI, surely he has a settler sitting around somewhere, they always do.

He may even refound Tartar.

he already did. New Tartar = Buffalo, the city washington offered for peace at the end of the round. i have such a grudge against that city!

 

[Gooblah]

That stack is a massive problem. I suggest accepting the peace deal.

Lets go over why:
1) Stack of Doom. There's a reason this is being called as such. The problem is the stack combines units that can all do serious damage to Sis's defenders. If we lose a city, it'll put us behind around 10 turns (by my estimate, based on the time to capture the city, then get it outta anarachy), not to mention all the wasted units.
2) Last Stand at Apache. Apache is the barb city in the north which has the other source of Horses. We razed Zapotec to the south. Accepting peace would ensure a lack of OB, as well as attack. I suggest somehow getting troops up north, then razing Apache. Stationing troops and 2 Galleys will prevent Washington from Settling the area. We can use the troops to pillage after the PT expires.
3) Reinforcements. We are in a serious unit crunch. Assign all cities to unit production: lackluster hammer cities to offense, hammer-abundant cities to Longbowmen, then Maces. This may sound stupid, but the rationale is simple: Gilgamesh is Protective. This will make the LBs even more powerful, and giving them City Garrison II or Drill II will make it that much harder for the SoD to capture a city. After 3-6 Bows are done, mass Maces and other units.
4) Civics. This is optional but advised. Switch to Slavery, Vassalage, PS, Theocracy, etc.

 

[KMadCandy]

there are horses up north but they're not that close to Apache. Gooblah i know that you can't load this game, i won't remind you why since it's painful , so here's a screenshot of the north with resources. it's been several rounds since a picture with them, and i think the last few with them didn't include way up north.

Spoiler :

note: the screenshot didn't capture anything south of NY, including the nanas and iron, but they haven't disappeared from the map

even if he gets 'em, those horses will be rather a pain for him to hook up to the rest of his empire, once we take care of buffalo and he loses the sailing connection. he has one city we haven't seen, portland, but i'm convinced it's not up there. more importantly, 2 people who tend to know what they're talking about are convinced of the same thing. i'm too lazy to check who, but i think they were validator and bhruic? we think it's between NY and seattle.

ps barb cities really suck lately! what is up with Apache? it's not like they can build wonders with the marble.

 

[rupertmonkey]

I think you're doing a great job, Sis. The United States is toast, one way or another (I'm just talking about the game here. Honest.) But I think this might be the game in which we see a serious, competitive nuclear war. I don't know how else you can beat Shaka. I have no idea how this would play out; that's why I read the ALC. But I suggest teching towards whatever makes nukewar possible. And you might have to build the UN to ensure that nukes aren't banned. (What are the mechanics of defying a UN resolution? KMad?)

You won the circumnav bonus, right? That'll help you get some guys over to Shaka's ruined, glowing lands. Depending on how things fall, you can either dominate him or raze his cities and build a nice starship without significant competition. Good luck.