My Name is Prince (Practice Round)

[Treedweller]

I'm a somewhat new Civ IV player -and new to these forums, so hi!- but I've lurked for a while and perused the variety of 'sample games' I found scattered throughout the strategy and tips forum; they seemed like great fun to create and participate in, but I knew that I definitely wasn't skilled or knowledgeable enough to create and run my own topic where I was the authority.

You see, even though I play on Prince level, and can for the most part compete with the AI in terms of raw score, I'm very jumpy; my biggest problem stems from the fact that I'll pick a leader tailored to suit a specific victory condition, but I'll jump around and try to do everything at once. I try to take a definitive economic (and subsequently technological lead), I try to REX, I try to build up the world's definitive army while juggling a variety of less useful religious techs, I'll try to be the first to get the Great Wall for the points towards a Great Spy, only to discover that a more focused build and approach would have done better. I've actually completed very few games, and came out as a clear winner in even less, yet I know that I'd be ready to win consistently on Prince level with a little help--and with someone to slap me in the face when I lose focus.

Thus, I'll be playing a game in the style of Sisituil's ALC type games, only with my relying on you all to point out the flaws in my playstyle and offering detailed advice and tips. I know there's quite a few similar games to my own, but I really wanted to have some fun by hosting one. So, the basic goals of this are:

1. For me and players of a similar skill level to mine to get better at Civ in the transition from the basic difficulties to the higher ones.

2. For the more advanced players to learn through instruction.

This is just the 'test' round where I learn what works and what doesn't for these kinds of topics, so if this successful and I get a good response for the community, I'll turn this into a series.

I'm not very good at micromanaging or warfare, but I do know a good bit of basics about Civ IV and am aware (though can't necessarily pull off) a variety of the more advanced strategies and 'gambits' (like the Oracle-CS Slingshot); however, I'm not very good at leveraging certain civics like Slavery, so I'll need some help there. We'll be playing on a standard sized, temperate, low sea level Pangaea map with six other 'random' AI opponents and all victory conditions 'on.' It's BtS and the patch version I have is 3.13. Additionally, I will NOT regenerate the map to get a better start position, and am playing with the 'Choose Religions' options button because I like the aesthetic difference it makes to a game.

And just a note before I begin: this is my first time doing anything of this sort, and as such, if I'm not providing you guys with consistent or comprehensive enough information through screenshots or descriptions, PLEASE, by all means let me know so I can try to remedy this.

I'll start with the leader I picked:



I don't know why, but from what I've seen, Wang Kon isn't all that popular. Yeah, Protective sure ain't all that wonderful for the most part, but being Financial and starting with Mysticism and Mining (letting a player opt for an early religion and/or fast Bronze Working access) more than makes up for it. His UU is okay in certain situations, and his UB, though it doesn't show up till later in the game, is straightforward and useful.

Here's the starting position:



Hmm, this looks like a good start so far for a Financial leader; a bunch of river tiles, and at least two hills to place mines on (more, in all likelihood). We'll probably be able to leverage Bureaucracy really effectively in this start position. I can settle in place and work the flood plains for fast growth and slight research boost, and I'll have definite access to two food resources and Wine. I'm thinking of moving my Warrior 1 NW on the hill to get a better view of what I may be missing, but I'll wait until I get some input. So basically, here are the major things to consider:

1. What type of victory should we pursue? What would Wang Kon's traits best lend to? (I'm thinking perhaps cultural. If we found a few religions -which we stand a good shot at doing- we can leverage the financial trait to stay technologically ahead of the AI and shoot for Music, and leverage early Archery and Protective to deter the AI from attacking us. We can even do Space Race, but I'm not familiar at all with that.)

2. Should we opt for an early religion because of our access to the slight flood plain research boost? If not, what SHOULD we research?

3. We need to decide a solid basic tech path, but that should wait until we decide where to settle the first city. We also need to decide whether to build a Warrior or Worker first (I'm thinking Warrior, because of our ability to work Flood Plains for faster growth).

4. Where to move the Warrior? (Personally, I think 1 NW is the best option.)

There's so much more to consider (that's why I love Civ ), but we should wait until we decide where to settle first. So, what are your thoughts? I'd love to hear from EVERYONE even remotely interested in this; once I have a fair amount of opinions, I'll continue playing. However, I don't know how long I should play before posting a thorough report (maybe 30-45 turns?), so I'd like to hear input on that.

Anyways, I'm looking forward to seeing how this turns out; it should be a lot of fun!

EDIT: The 4000 BC save is now attached. Yeah I know it shouldn't be called 'ALC' but it serves a clear flag for me when I'm sifting through my other saves.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

This is just the 'test' round where I learn what works and what doesn't for these kinds of topics, so if this successful and I get a good response for the community, I'll turn this into a series.

The response you get from the community is most likely to be a reflection of the quality of the investment you put into it. Expressed slightly differently, the audience should be discussing (and improving) your ideas, rather than discussing their own ideas.

I don't know why, but from what I've seen, Wang Kon isn't all that popular. Yeah, Protective sure ain't all that wonderful for the most part, but being Financial and starting with Mysticism and Mining (letting a player opt for an early religion and/or fast Bronze Working access) more than makes up for it. His UU is okay in certain situations, and his UB, though it doesn't show up till later in the game, is straightforward and useful.

Comment: it's probably worth expressing explicitly the UB and UU, and how you think they may fit into the game.

1. What type of victory should we pursue...?

Uh huh. Lots of questions. What are your answers?


OK, enough on that. Here are a couple of ideas.

(1) Commerce resources, like Wines, that are adjacent to a river start with +2 , and your financial bonus applies on top of that. Since the wines are on a 1F tile, you can't work them and get rapid growth.

But since a Winery only offers +1/+2, and only once you get around to researching Monarchy, there's an alternative play which may be of interest - you can settle on the Wines, and get the commerce bonus immediately (your city tile will be 2/1/3). Add to that an extra commerce from the floodplains, or the wheat if you would rather have the hammer, and you've got some quick research.

Whether it is quick enough to win a religion race is a matter of micro math - somebody might check it. By preference, you'd probably rather grab Meditation if you can (religions want monasteries, and the GP benefits of Poly are less important to a financial leader).

It looks to me as though the move picks up another flood, and gives up the sheep. I'm willing to make that trade since I think Animal Loving is a ways away yet.

It's worth checking for traps though, so Warrior to the hill looks like a good check.

On a religious start, Worker doesn't have so much leverage. I'd probably start Warrior here (or invest in the Rock Garden, if you want to roll the dice for a prophet later), and at size 2 decide which way to pull from there.


I like the same starting move without the religious start - move to the wines, worker first plus Agriculture, for a fast vertical launch.

 

[Treedweller]

The response you get from the community is most likely to be a reflection of the quality of the investment you put into it. Expressed slightly differently, the audience should be discussing (and improving) your ideas, rather than discussing their own ideas.

I'll keep that in mind and express my ideas in a more detailed manner next time rather than posing so many questions. I just thought it'd end up more interesting for the community to pose questions rather than answers, but what you're saying does make more sense; it's more interesting to have a basis for discussion rather than just a bunch of what ifs thrown around.

(1) Commerce resources, like Wines, that are adjacent to a river start with +2 , and your financial bonus applies on top of that. Since the wines are on a 1F tile, you can't work them and get rapid growth.

But since a Winery only offers +1/+2, and only once you get around to researching Monarchy, there's an alternative play which may be of interest - you can settle on the Wines, and get the commerce bonus immediately (your city tile will be 2/1/3). Add to that an extra commerce from the floodplains, or the wheat if you would rather have the hammer, and you've got some quick research.

I really like the sound of that idea; I'm so used to seeing people saying not to settle on resources, but tiles that offer +1/+2 with their improvements seem like conceivable settling positions for cities. I also tend not to prioritize Monarchy, so it seems like a good option for a resource I won't be beelining for anyways.

Whether it is quick enough to win a religion race is a matter of micro math - somebody might check it. By preference, you'd probably rather grab Meditation if you can (religions want monasteries, and the GP benefits of Poly are less important to a financial leader).

I was thinking of going for Polytheism since it seems more feasible, but I think the only way I won't be able to found the Meditation religion is if a financial leader starts with mysticism and works an Oasis, or if they start with fishing AND Mysticism and work a water tile. It seems like a good bet if I opt to settle on the wine.

It looks to me as though the move picks up another flood, and gives up the sheep. I'm willing to make that trade since I think Animal Loving is a ways away yet.

It's worth checking for traps though, so Warrior to the hill looks like a good check.

On a religious start, Worker doesn't have so much leverage. I'd probably start Warrior here (or invest in the Rock Garden, if you want to roll the dice for a prophet later), and at size 2 decide which way to pull from there.

I like the same starting move without the religious start - move to the wines, worker first plus Agriculture, for a fast vertical launch.

I'd also be willing to sacrifice the sheep, since if more floodplains pop up it'll more than make up for it in terms of both food and commerce, plus we have a chance of finding other valuable resources in our big cross; and I definitely agree with starting with a Warrior. However, I'm not sure I quite follow your comments on Stonehenge; do you mean we can start building that and decide if we want to continue with its production after reaching 2 pop?

If we do opt for a non-religious start the Stonehenge will still be great for popping early city borders (since we won't really have many other means of generating culture, and I dislike building monuments; I think they're for the most part a waste of hammers), and we can beeline to Code of Laws and make use of the inevitable Great Prophet with a Shrine.

I'm also thinking I'd prefer to aim for a domination victory. It's far out of my comfort zone, but it's more fun to play/watch and it'd be a great learning experience.

 

[vicawoo]

Cultural victories aren't very good practice for other forms of victory, and it's a lot better if you play them from the start.

 

[Treedweller]

Well, that seals it then, a domination victory it is.

 

[TyrionLannister]

I'd like to give this a go myself. Can you post the 4000BC save?

 

[futurehermit]

It is too early to decide the victory condition

 

[Diamondeye]

I don't know why, but from what I've seen, Wang Kon isn't all that popular. Yeah, Protective sure ain't all that wonderful for the most part, but being Financial and starting with Mysticism and Mining (letting a player opt for an early religion and/or fast Bronze Working access) more than makes up for it. His UU is okay in certain situations, and his UB, though it doesn't show up till later in the game, is straightforward and useful.

Wang Kon is an awesome leader! He has two good traits, an early killer UU that will be used in almost every game, and a ditto UB. Even his starting techs are good for a non-creative leader.

Uhm. I don't know if you would like to analyze the synergies and uses of these yourself, but I can outline what I think of them shortly:
Financial: Huge when running Cottage Economy. Good for River starts. Fits good with the start.
Protective: Often underrated, provides better protection, as well as cheaper castles and walls. Especially once gunpowder rolls round, this trait increases in usefulness.
Hwacha: Deadly replacement for the catapult unit. +50% against melee is very effective. No classical unit except for HAs and other catties have 50-50 odds against this doomsday machine on open field. Great for both city taking and stack skirmishes.
Seowan: A university with +10% . Why not? You will be wanting to build those anyways, and 10% is a net bonus.
Synergy: Protective+Hwacha: Early war. I prefer crossbows and Hwachas, especially against horseless enemies, this is deadly. The combination of Collateral and Drill really shines here.
Financial+Seowan: 'Nuff said.

1. What type of victory should we pursue? What would Wang Kon's traits best lend to? (I'm thinking perhaps cultural. If we found a few religions -which we stand a good shot at doing- we can leverage the financial trait to stay technologically ahead of the AI and shoot for Music, and leverage early Archery and Protective to deter the AI from attacking us. We can even do Space Race, but I'm not familiar at all with that.)

It's too early for this, but I think WK is wellsuited for Conquest, Domination and Space Race victories.

2. Should we opt for an early religion because of our access to the slight flood plain research boost? If not, what SHOULD we research?

Grabbing an early religion is a solid move if you are sure to get it. Your choice, though. (VoU has a point in settling 1NW, for boost.

3. We need to decide a solid basic tech path, but that should wait until we decide where to settle the first city. We also need to decide whether to build a Warrior or Worker first (I'm thinking Warrior, because of our ability to work Flood Plains for faster growth).

Settle 1NW imo. the tile 2N2W of settler is FP, the tile 1N2W could be aswell, although I might think it as a plains.

4. Where to move the Warrior? (Personally, I think 1 NW is the best option.)

Your decision, I have no idea. Hills are ideal, imo.

There's so much more to consider (that's why I love Civ ), but we should wait until we decide where to settle first. So, what are your thoughts? I'd love to hear from EVERYONE even remotely interested in this; once I have a fair amount of opinions, I'll continue playing. However, I don't know how long I should play before posting a thorough report (maybe 30-45 turns?), so I'd like to hear input on that.

Anyways, I'm looking forward to seeing how this turns out; it should be a lot of fun!

I think you should play until first settler is out.

Suggestions for techroute:
(Religion)->Priesthood->BW->Wheel->Pottery->Writing
PROs: Access to Oracle (for CoL, imo), chopping, and cottages.
CONs: Food poor, biased against Oracle (might not get it with no IND or marble)

(Religion)->Agri->BW->Wheel->Pottery->Hunting->Archery
PROs: Early access to food and copper, scouts, archers and cottages.
CONs: No wonder access, no real focus (all-around teching)

And build queue, something like:
warriors until size 2-3, worker, worker, settler, (Oracle?).

 

[eewallace]

FWIW, I probably wouldn't move the settler when the starting position looks so good. Also, although settling on the wine will give you a small commerce boost right now, you are sacrificing a winery on a river tile with a financial leader, which is potentially one of the best commerce squares in the game.

As for victory type, if it turns out you have room along your river for 3 cities with floodplains, you may have the right geography for a cultural win. But Wang Kon's traits and UB don't seem really that good a match for cultural.

What speed are you playing on?

 

[Gwynnja]

When im attempting to get one of the first three religions, I usually go for poly first. If you're too slow, it opens up mono (with masonry.) Iirc, Wang is the only fin leader that starts with myst, so getting any one of the early religions should be possible on prince if you can grow to size 2 while you research (then use the second citizen to work the grapes.) Settling on top of the grapes is a bad idea, its asking to get a desert tile in your bfc. for teching I would poly > ag > roads > cottages or copper and let the map dictate from there.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Also, although settling on the wine will give you a small commerce boost right now, you are sacrificing a winery on a river tile with a financial leader, which is potentially one of the best commerce squares in the game.

I think you are overselling this. Since the wines are on the river, the Financial boost is already in effect.

Also, +2 now, when it represents roughly 20% of your income, is a lot more significant than +2 commerce later. And if that income is enough to shave a turn off a religious tech, it's basically the difference between winning the race and finishing second. (Disclaimer: I haven't checked where that jump point is.)

As for Gwynnja's concerns about the desert, that seems a very timid approach to me. If the warrior moves first, you'll get decent visibility to the north west, and if you hate what you see you change course. Then you can move the settler to the wines, and again you can re-assess. If you decide that the wines is wrong, you have lost a turn (so the religious race is probably out), but still have another exploratory move, so you can consider settling on the grassland, or on the plans south of the initial position.

If you were feeling really paranoid, you could use the settler to explore on turn one, and come back to the wines later if they are OK.

But we can already see 12 tiles in the fat cross of the wines, and they are very good. We know that the three tiles hidden to the west of the settler are good (because they are in the current fat cross), and the warrior will be able to see at least two more (from the screen shot, it looks to me like a plains hill and a floodplain), and the direction of the river. The latter is important because we have already established that this river is "real", and therefore that any flat desert tiles it touches are flood plains.

Absolute worst case is that we start running out of good tiles to work when we hit size 17.

 

[Morin]

@ Treedweller

This is a great idea. The situation you described (meaning you tend to fall into the trap of trying to force a certain type of victory condition or economy set-up) is exactly my problem. I am able to win fairly consistently on Prince, but realize that what is holding me back is my lacking versatility and diversity of play style.

That said, I'm posting to second the request for the 4000B.C. save. Your goals in putting together this game are right up my alley, and I'd love to participate. As an added bonus, I'll get some experience posting a game.

Thanks for coming up with this idea, as it drew me out of my months of lurking.

 

[vale]

Woah, a riverside winery is an uber commerce tile? The winery gives 2 commerce above the normal tile yield.

Conveniently, a cottage also gives 2 commerce above the normal tile yield if it is riverside since we are financial. And it improves over time. And it is an improvement that is available earlier.

The only thing I would worry about is losing the sheep. It isn't the greatest food tile, but it is still a food tile. I think the flood plains and the irrigated wheat will ease the pain though.

 

[Treedweller]

Unfortunately guys, I don't know how to post/upload saves. If someone could describe to me how to do it, I'd be more than happy to do so.

Just so you know eewallace, I'm playing on Normal speed.

Additionally, I decided to play the first 39 turns, but I put it in Spoiler tags for those of you that want to play the game without knowing anything about the map beforehand. I chose not to settle on the wine, but I think that turned out to be a good decision...

Spoiler :

So I move my Warrior 1 NW and...



An extra floodplains and an extra couple plains, but really, it's nothing I don't already have by settling in place; plus, by settling where I am, I have a chance of collecting an extra resource or two in my fat cross, which is always desirable.



Damn! I miss out on collecting silver in my BFC, and with a financial leader, no less. But really, when I think about it, the economic benefit it would've gave me would've been hurt by the overload of hills by settling 1 S from my starting position, and the happy benefit will still be easy to get because it's just outside my fat cross. I get started on the Warrior, and since my city will grow fairly fast, I'll get started on Polytheism and work on Diamondeye's first tech route provided nothing else in particular crops up. I like the idea of choprushing the Oracle for a CoL Slingshot, and this looks like the best way to do it.

Turn 4, and the villagers give me a map showing the Indian capital; either Gandhi or Asoka, and though it's nice to have a peaceful neighbor to tech trade then dominate later, I'm concerned they might beat me to Poly; I sure hope they're aiming for Meditation...



The resources I *can* see there aren't very special, but if there's copper I'll probably chop-rush a Settler and attempt an Axe rush if it seems feasible; either way I'll want copper, but this'll be a wait and see.

Turn 9, and the neighbor turns out to Gandhi...



I'm really happy about this, since in my experience, he's a lot easier to please than Asoka and the AI doesn't really leverage philosophical well at all. Christianity was founded a turn before this though, so that's something for me to concern myself with... Hopefully I'll be able to grab an early religion.

Turn 11, and I made it to the early religion, thank god; I choose Confucianism and opt for the Anarchy for immediate conversion. Hopefully there's no religious psychos close to me like Isabella.



Turn 12: My Anarchy is over; my Warrior is one turn away from completion, I begin on Bronze working. My city is working a flood plains and the Wine tile. That means slower growth, but it also means faster researching and subsequently the ability to scout out the Bronze before most AI. Seoul gets started on a worker.

Turn 17: A tribal village close to Dehli gives my unit experience, turning my warrior into a forest hopping super scout. This should make things a little easier in the early game.

Turn 21: A village gives me 97 gold: nice. That'll help me run a deficit later.

Turn 23, and Bronze shows its face in a pretty horrible city location.



It isn't particularly close to Gandhi, plus, if I settle in the most ideal location, 1 SW of the cows, they'll be three 'dead' tiles I can't possibly make use of. Still, Bronze is Bronze, and the cow, silk, and production yielding hills aren't too shabby...

I also switch over to Slavery this turn, that means anarchy, but Slavery is one of the nicest civics in the game. Forgive me in advance if I don't use it correctly, but I'll do my best to leverage it properly.

Turn 24: My government is re-established, and I start on Priesthood.

Turn 26: A village gives me a free scout; pretty nice.

Turn 29: Priesthood is complete. I get started on Agriculture so my poor worker has something to do other than chop-rushing my settler and building the silver mine.



Turn 30, and I see Charlemagne. Bad, but this is even worse:



He has Gold, has it mined, and is building a road no less. So, not only am I dealing with an early religious zealot on my borders, but one with an early research boost. Early rushing his capital is probably an option to keep in mind.

Turn 32, and I get gold from a village. That brings my total to 136.



Looks like I found the guy with the early religion. Good to know, but I still have no idea where his borders are. Probably far from me, which is good.

Turn 35, and a lot happens here. Agriculture is finished, so I set to work on the Wheel; my Worker begins chopping the second forest for my Settler (I'll save the rest for the Oracle). But, I also find this:



Gold, floodplains AND Copper, and right outside Charlemagne's capital... If my Settler finishes in time, I might have a chance of grabbing that before Char. I really, really like the idea of that as my second city.

Turn 39, and something very very tempting grabs my attention:



Charlemagne has a worker just BEGGING for me to set it free. I'm not sure if an early war declaration is the best option, especially when I want that copper by his capital, but I have a really good chance of stifling his economy and limiting his expansion by stealing his worker while giving my own a leg up. I personally think it's worth it, if not necessary because of his already amazing start, but I'd like to hear opinions from people with experience with this sort of thing.

Here's an overview of the map, along with my opinion on where we go from here:



First off, I want to steal that worker even though it forces an early war. Charlemagne is going to hate me anyways when he founds a religion, so he won't be a tech buddy, and it'll also limit his ability to leverage his Imperialistic settlers to steal my prime city location. I can then use that worker to conect the copper to my second city (outlined with the red dot, blue is an alternative location), Axe rush him, and steal his capital. That red dot even with an early war is still a very risky move however, it could end being nothing more than a waste of time.

Second, I want a city in the orange location, and a city on the hill by the coast to grab the seafood and the silver. Those are lower priority though, so they can come a bit later, especially the silver/seafood city since I didn't grab fishing and don't plan on it for a while.

Third, I'm thinking of finishing the Wheel, then going Pottery, Writing, then slingshotting to CoL. Once my Settler finishes in 5 turns (and I send it to the red dot with my Warrior), I'll build a Warrior and let my city grow, then, I'm going to start chop-rushing the Oracle as quick as I possibly can.

That's my basic plan so far; I'm sure I made a lot of mistakes, so feel free to point them out! I'm also very glad that this pulled you out of lurking Morin, hopefully this'll help us both out

EDIT: Save now attached.

 

[vale]

The extra flood plain would have definitely convinced me to move my settler onto the wine. By settling in place you lost 2 flood plains in your fat cross (the one you settled on and the one NW of your city. Definitely the long term prospects of the settled on wine city were at least as good if not better than the settle in place city.

Sheep are a relatively lame food resource and put another early research burden on you.

 

[Treedweller]

Well, I guess that's why I'm still learning :/ Something to keep in mind for another time.

 

[PaulusIII]

Treedweller:

Spoiler :

The option to axerush Charlemagne is certainly open, though not with the red dot. It's nearly impossible to connect those two cities within the timeframe you are looking at for an axerush.

2E of that orange copper site might be better than it currently looks, it might have seafood in the ocean tiles for a decent (but nothing more than that) production city. As a bonus, you do not have to wait to found and connect a distant city, or wait for a border pop as with the orange dot: instead you can mine the copper straight away and start building axes for the rush. Reserve further chopping for axes.

 

[Treedweller]

Spoiler :

Oh damn, I didn't even think about the implications of having to connect those cities if I do build on the red dot; but still, that red dot would make a wonderful city and at the very least would keep the copper and gold out of Charlemagne's grubby hands. I can cancel the axe rush, but still declare war on Charlemagne to snag his worker and use it to help out my second city. It'll grow fairly fast, and and I'll be able to defend it well with Axes despite not being connected to my capital for a good long while. I can pop the borders with a chopped monument after building the Copper mine, and use the Gold to attempt an early research boost.

Then, I can reserve my chopping for chopping the oracle for a CoL or even Construction slingshot. I don't know though, it seems like a pretty complex early decision.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

The extra flood plain would have definitely convinced me to move my settler onto the wine. By settling in place you lost 2 flood plains in your fat cross (the one you settled on and the one NW of your city. Definitely the long term prospects of the settled on wine city were at least as good if not better than the settle in place city.

Or 1W, settling on the green, which gives those two flood plains without surrendering the sheep, or taking on any extra desert. Water under the bridge.

The worker theft seems fine, if you are into that sort of thing. I don't like Red Dot at all, though - that looks to me like a maintenance and culture problem waiting to happen. Not to mention that Charlie is Imp/PRO...

Charlie as a first target seems reasonable. As a rush target, not so much. I'd go after him with disposapults, rather than axen.

 

[DaveMcW]

Turn 11, I made it to the early religion, thank god; I choose Confucianism and opt for the Anarchy for immediate conversion.
Turn 12: My Anarchy is over; my Warrior is one turn away from completion

Turn 23, I also switch over to Slavery this turn, that means anarchy, but Slavery is one of the nicest civics in the game.
(Turn 28, Worker is complete)

I agree with switching to both of these, but you got no immediate benefit and delayed your warrior & worker.

It would be better to wait until you had unhappiness or wanted to whip something.