ALC Game #24: Hammurabi/Babylon

Would have been nice to at least hit enter so we could see if those "Can't Trade" items become "will trade" or "won't trade" since some brokering is possible with Justinian whose has neither compass nor polytheism. Alternatively, You may want to gift Darius meditation to open up a feudalism for philosophy trade. Then trade feudalism for construction via Justinian.

If you can get feudalism then vassalage will be an excellent civic option and you can attach the GG instead of settling. You haven't moved your palace yet and probably should not do so (it is at the center of a half-circle of land that includes a number of Sal's cities) thus you can stay in Vassalage for a while (at least until Nationalism and Theocracy if you choose that option).

I also like what you did last round where you captured the research adviser screen that showed all the available techs to research and their times. For us who can't or generally don't load up the saves that would be quite helpful.

I do not see happy being a huge issue given the fact you have multiple religions present (you may want to consider S.Paya and an early free religion plus liberalism bypass), and access to market and forge multiplier resources. Food and production are not huge concerns thus getting more land will make up for a lack of mature cottages. Representation will be our long-term goal so we will either need to plan our interim empire for an eventual transition from HR to Rep or ignore HR all together and avoid the turn(s) of anarchy.

I still like HBR-MC (picking up compass and construction through trades) and then planning for our conquest of Saladin while we research currency. Eventually we'll also need to deal with Ragnar, who is too crazy (and backward) to keep alive. During that phase we'll want to REX some key cities while building our military.

Question: at 64 population (8 cities sized 8) what is the break-even point for the number of military units such that the difference in the cost of Vassalage (compared to barbarism) greater than the unit discount. Basically, can we expect a net positive or negative to our gold-flow by switching to vassalage? I guess it really doesn't matter other than we may be able to REX some secondary cities as well and both up our population as well as cover more land.

Saladin does NOT have construction yet (though is likely to trade for it sooner rather than later I would guess) and has researched compass (does this mean he is or is soon likely to be researching metal casting?). He also just had a big power spike (upgrading archers to longbows maybe?). Either we can switch to caste system now or wait until we get feudalism. We also may want to whip down some more cities to crank out a military so that we only need to add catapults to the mix and then begin marching on his cities.

Also, who/when was Judaism founded? Justinian has switched to it but was not the founder...

Ok, my initial plan:
Research: HBR-MC first; trade for Construction and Feudalism if possible; otherwise research them
Civics: No Change
City builds:
Gondar: barracks/stables - horse archers
Aksum: temple/barracks/stables - war elephants
Akkad: archers/axes/longbows
Babylon: settlers/workers/navy

Once you get feudalism switch (only) to vassalage - not Caste System or HR

Once you get construction and have a decent core army assembled (and support cities founded) whip/chop out forges and catapults from those four cities until they bleed and then maximize food while the army rolls out and declares war on Saladin. Hooking up the furs/silver along with the forges should allow you to quickly get the cities back to size.

War:
Send out some spies or scouts to find and track the enemy SoD. Plan on killing them on the flat land on your northern border. It will probably take some time for this to occur and meanwhile your cities are growing and getting rid of whip anger. You will want at least a small navy to guard your coastal resources and, later, to blockade his.

Your economy will hopefully be OK (especially if you can pickup currency) during this initial phase. Just before you start the aggression phase switch to caste system to get artists for border pops and merchants to fund the campaign when necessary. Try and keep research up but obviously you'll need units as well. The goal should be to control all the land currently visible. The NE access to the peninsula is very defensible (plus we don't know what lies beyond so planning for it is impossible - some more scouting would be nice...)
 
Will you really get any benefit from CS now? You need to grow some more pop in your cities before you'll be able to work more than 2 scientists in any city, and you won't have any workshops for the foreseeable future. You'll still need slavery to rush buildings in some of your cities that are :hammers: poor.

With Hereditary Rule, the capitol could quite quickly get to the point of making use of CS. Also, considering how we have a couple of cities we are planning to found that need border pops to become useful, being able to force an artist with the initial pop would be good. Although I agree, there are still uses to slavery.
 
I think trading Philo was the right move... there really isn't any tech Justinian can get that will make it worth him trading it. Darius has a monopoly on Feudalism and I seriously doubt Justinian will swap it for Poly (even if the AI tends to do stupid things).

As for the next tech to pursue, I'm thinking Currency might be your best bet... it would help a little with trade routes, particularly as you explore more of the continent and likely get trade routes with Ragnar and Justinian.

Then hope for the best when it comes to trying to get Construction... the AI seems very reluctant to part with it in BTS, even if everybody else has it. Maybe you'll get lucky and Justinian will trade it for Currency.
 
Saladin does NOT have construction yet (though is likely to trade for it sooner rather than later I would guess) and has researched compass (does this mean he is or is soon likely to be researching metal casting?). He also just had a big power spike (upgrading archers to longbows maybe?).

Saladin doesn't have longbows because he doesn't have Feudalism... he doesn't even have Monarchy yet.

It's possible he could be building an attack force and looking to attack Justinian... I can't open the saved game because I don't have the right patches, so is Saladin at Cautious or worse with Justinian?
 
With Hereditary Rule, the capitol could quite quickly get to the point of making use of CS. Also, considering how we have a couple of cities we are planning to found that need border pops to become useful, being able to force an artist with the initial pop would be good. Although I agree, there are still uses to slavery.

I wasn't trying to suggest that Sisiutil should never use CS. I just don't see the need for immediately. Changing civics at this point results in 1 turn of anarchy per civic changed, so there's nothing gained in doing a multiple switch. I would wait for CS until it's actually going to be used.

It's possible he could be building an attack force and looking to attack Justinian... I can't open the saved game because I don't have the right patches, so is Saladin at Cautious or worse with Justinian?

Saladin is Cautious (-1 net) toward Justinian.
 
Saladin doesn't have longbows because he doesn't have Feudalism... he doesn't even have Monarchy yet.

It's possible he could be building an attack force and looking to attack Justinian... I can't open the saved game because I don't have the right patches, so is Saladin at Cautious or worse with Justinian?

Or us...

Anyway, I missed the Monarchy symbol while I was looking for the feudalism symbol. If we can get HBR and construction, with or without metal casting, we should be able to walk all over him if axes and archers are his defense. I'm guessing he doesn't like anyone who could give me Monarchy or he'd already have it and thus is not in a position to get feudalism anytime soon.

I guess it is nice to have overall demographics but right now I'd trade that for better information into what Saladin is researching. Maybe as we get courthouses setup we should dedicate some spy specialists (and maybe the last 10% of our slider science) directly at Saladin and see if we can get research...can someone see how long that would take (not counting Saladin's EP spending on us)?

Ideally we could time our war until just before he gets Monarchy - the only problem is we will not be attacking immediately and he could get enough research done prior to his attacking us to get feudalism (maybe - without longbows it may be worth the now reduced WW to just attack and cripple his economy before he can either finish Monarchy or get enough invested in Feudalism to warrant a trade). It is unlikely he will voluntarily vassalize - though if Justinian or Darius join in he could capitulate.
 
Polobo, I'm not at all clear why you're advocating avoidance of Hereditary Rule right now. Caste System I can understand delaying for the reasons Validator has stated, but why delay HR? :confused:
 
Given my tech path (MC) and silver/fur (and maybe whale) resources, along with 3+ religions with free religion a little later; I just don't see happy being as big an issue as some are making it out to be. Part of it also stems from the fact that I often find myself stuck in HR long after I want to be out because I've relied too much on the garrison bonus and don't want to drop my populations.

Since the civic cost differential is zero the only actual cost of HR is the turn(s) of anarchy - if you switch during an already incurred revolution. I would not revolt just to switch to HR right now since I advocate using slavery still and thus you will be limiting your population anyway. Once you revolt to vassalage and/or caste system doing the swap then would be fine; just keep in mind that our ideal mid-game civic would be representation and thus you will swap again at some point and lose the happy from all but your biggest three cities (which will lose all but the representation bonus).
 
Another possibility, since my plan is to war with Saladin, would be to pickup polytheism and revolt to HR, OR and Christianity now. We'll still want to spread Islam and Buddhism for Free Religion later but for now the OR boost to courthouses and forges would be welcome. Assuming Saladin is already building up for war his target is probably already decided and whether we are Christian or pagan isn't going to matter. The only concern would be our trade relations with the others. Once we declare we are going to lose all foreign trade routes since Saladin is going to block us but technology will still be necessary (unless we manage to switch to OR just after MC and we trade for Construction and Feudalism before then). If that is the case then we lose out on the OR bonus for courthouses but since we are organized that is mitigated.
 
I often find myself stuck in HR long after I want to be out because I've relied too much on the garrison bonus and don't want to drop my populations.

I've got to say that this seems to be some rather :smoke: logic. So in some past games you wanted to be in some other Government civic, but you were getting too much of a benefit from HR to feel you could change. So to avoid this "problem" in your current games you don't use HR, thus depriving yourself of the benefits that it brings so that you're free to switch to the other Government civics when they become available. :crazyeye:

Unless you have Pyramids (built or captured), HR seems to be the most no-brainer civic choice in the game. It's a looooooong time before you'll have access to any other Government civic, so for only 1 turn of anarchy you can benefit from HR for maybe a couple of hundred turns.

I like to think of HR as providing for a lot of temporary :). It allows me to grow my cities quickly so they become more productive , which allows me to continue progress and find ways to replace the HR :). Gaining access to more :) resources (via trade or settle/conquer), constructing :) buildings and spreading religions for :) under FR can all be done during this time. Along the way I'm decreasing the size of garrisons as I no longer need the :). If everything has gone well I won't need HR :) at all in my cities when the time comes to want a change to another Government civic.
 
Another possibility, since my plan is to war with Saladin, would be to pickup polytheism and revolt to HR, OR and Christianity now. We'll still want to spread Islam and Buddhism for Free Religion later but for now the OR boost to courthouses and forges would be welcome. Assuming Saladin is already building up for war his target is probably already decided and whether we are Christian or pagan isn't going to matter. The only concern would be our trade relations with the others. Once we declare we are going to lose all foreign trade routes since Saladin is going to block us but technology will still be necessary (unless we manage to switch to OR just after MC and we trade for Construction and Feudalism before then). If that is the case then we lose out on the OR bonus for courthouses but since we are organized that is mitigated.
Problem #1: no one is willing to trade Polytheism to me yet.
Problem #2: it's Monotheism I need to run Organized Religion.
 
Another complication - Ragnar is in WHEOOHRN!

And since both Sal and Darius have always been above Ragnar in terms in power, he might not be looking towards them. Rather, I think that slight dip in the powergraph that made Sisiutil fall below Ragnar caused him to go WHEOOHRN - so have your coasts and Sal's borders watched for Vikings.

Ragnar is certainly stupid enough to try and pull off a stunt like that, so be ready for him.
 
With Sis' warring skills, I'm not sure Ragnar is the one we should be afraid of.

It's the risk he manages to bring Saladin in on the war that concerns me (could somebody check if their relation is such that this is possible).

Though as long Sis has the military situation under control, I guess being at war with Saladin is a blessing in disguise.

Putting the AI into a war-time state usually devastates that AI's ability to compete in the long run, and a backwards Arabia which we don't even have to eat the diplomatic "you attacked our friend" penalties to conquer would of course be too good to be true. :)
 
Definately settle where Saladbins chariots are. You can work 4 grassland hills as well as the iron. With mines thats 17 hammers (I think, can't remember how much for a grassland iron mine) and 1 more from the sheep pasture. Not a bad production site for a coastal city. Also you can farm the grasslands for food if you don't fancy stealing the clams from the capital.
 
Based on Ragnar's low score, I'd expect him to be targeting Saladin (or as as-yet unmet civ), because he's almost certainly boxed in up there. If you're worried it might be you instead, finish HBR next and trade for construction. Jumbopults and shock axes will deal with any Viking invasion nicely.

If you think Ragnar's likely to look elsewhere, then beeline literature (for GLib, HE and NE - you have marble), whip courthouses to give the economy a quick-fix and continue expanding. On normal speed, ORG leaders can 2-pop whip them almost immediately so most cities can get one within a few turns if you slot them in the queue ahead of the current builds. <Edit> I'd be inclined to leverage the ORG trait for peaceful expansion now, and leverage the AGG trait for brutal expansion with rifles/trebs or cannons/muskets. Sal having jumbos makes a cuirassier war a less attractive option.

Edit: If Saladin's got compass already, chances are he'll have Feudalism by the time you're in a position to do him some serious harm, so warring against him is going to be pretty costly pre-engineering.
 
Next tech should be Construction->Hbr. Build a nice chunk-o-cats and spears and bowman while hbr is teched...then stables and large gray long nosed horsies. Currency and all those other techs are just spiffy dandy but right now sis needs troops. And axes and bowman aren't going to cut it. Besides the Ai should be teching currency soon so you can trade philo for it. not an even trade but the tech is already in another Ai's hands. So might as well be the little tech whore you know you are Sisa Musa.
On civics. Switch to HR mucho fasto (that's spanish). whip some courthouses THEN switch to CS. It's 2 turns of anarchy either way. this spreads it out and you can get your courthouses up and running quickly for some instant cash savings.
 
I would still prefer settling on the hill and then settle another city 2S of the sheep. I think you want to make maximum use of the good quality tiles you have available. Unless you're really confident you'll be taking Saladin out soon. :trouble:
Looking closely at the map, I'm inclined to agree with Validator. To illustrate:



This city will claim four valuable tiles (marked w/ red dots) that would be unworkable if you founded at Sal's chariot instead. It will also give instant access to the iron (important since your only copper is under cultural pressure) so you can skip a monument/religion and go straight to granary/lighthouse. It *will* require one of Babylon's clams, however.

As for the rest of our empire, here's my recommendation:


Green dot = fur/copper/silver. Can be delayed since you have Monarchy now, but don't wait too long, since the AI is running out of places to expand.

Red dot = between the eastern horses & corn. You will need 750 culture to claim the whales so I would make this site a priority. (I would NOT recommend founding between the corn & whales...too many peaks.)

Orange Dot = This one's optional and can be moved SE if you want the iron instead of spices. It *will* access the gold sooner (S.Paya, anyone?) and block Sal's expansion, but the land is extremely poor. (Can ANY of those plains tiles be irrigated??)

Cyan Dot = Can't be founded until the barbs are evicted.

Violet Dots = backfill as finances permit.

There are four religions in play (not Hinduism, since Darius' trade routes are still blocked for some strange reason) so you'll need quite a few cities to have a chance of inheriting Islam. I would switch to HR, if only to make Ragnar happy. CS can wait. As for Raggy's WHEOOHRN status, he's probably going after Justin. He WILL march his stack across an entire continent to attack someone far away, but luckily there's a chokepoint you can watch for him. Get some sentries out there and research HBR/MC for defense.

You are in no position to attack Saladin right now. I would REX instead.
 
Based on Ragnar's low score, I'd expect him to be targeting Saladin (or as as-yet unmet civ), because he's almost certainly boxed in up there. If you're worried it might be you instead, finish HBR next and trade for construction. Jumbopults and shock axes will deal with any Viking invasion nicely.

If you think Ragnar's likely to look elsewhere, then beeline literature (for GLib, HE and NE - you have marble), whip courthouses to give the economy a quick-fix and continue expanding. On normal speed, ORG leaders can 2-pop whip them almost immediately so most cities can get one within a few turns if you slot them in the queue ahead of the current builds. If Saladin's got compass already, chances are he's close to Feudalism so warring against him is going to be pretty costly pre-engineering. I'd be inclined to leverage the ORG trait for peaceful expansion now, and leverage the AGG trait for brutal expansion with rifles/trebs or cannons/muskets. Sal having jumbos makes a cuirassier war a less attractive option.

Construction first, that way you can build your cats while you research HBR, there is no guarantee that anyone will trade you construction. Or that you will have something they want in exchange. If sis hits those cities north of akkad quickly. he can remove sals access to ivory and thus romp pretty much unchallenged with his jumbos.
 
Construction first, that way you can build your cats while you research HBR, there is no guarantee that anyone will trade you construction. Or that you will have something they want in exchange. If sis hits those cities north of akkad quickly. he can remove sals access to ivory and thus romp pretty much unchallenged with his jumbos.
(I edited my initial post which may have confused things slightly)

I misread the tech screen (thought Saladin had it too), in which case trading would have been easy. As it is, Justinian's the only one you can count on for it and it'll take a bit of round-robin trading to get anything new to offer him. He's normally a pretty good tech-trading partner though and would probably take compass in exchange if Sal's willing to part with it. It might be worth turning off research for a turn to see what new trading options become available. If trading for construction looks unlikely, then I agree it makes sense to get that before HBR so we can build cats while researching jumbos.
 
City maintenance is currently costing you about 26 gpt. Courthouses will save you half of that, which translates into 2-3 ticks on the science slider. This has to be a priority.

Combined with Hereditary Rule for vertical growth, some more cottages, and continued excellent trading :thumbsup:, this is your economic ticket at the moment. Any horizontal expansion right now will cost you more than it's worth. Wait to expand for a few turns while you get your economy righted.
 
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