Cavaleiros Embassy & Intelligence

[Provolution]

I can send the letter right away, as I got oyzar on MSN.

 

[Provolution]

We need to have a information platform, what to say and not to say to Cavaleiros.

They (Oyzar) say we are not researching religion, and would like to know what we are heading for.
They also ask if we met any other nation yet.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Since we have a close relationship with a member of Team Cavalieros (Ozyar) we should try to find out as much as possible without telling them anything. I am content to use espionage and spies to find out what we need to know for now. The problem with direct talks with their team members is that there is no way to remember/interpret everything that is said. If we use espionage we can all have access to the info.

 

[Provolution]

I am going to post complete chatlogs here, so you can see what has been said.

 

[CommandoBob]

I hope we did send the letter, in addition to chatting. I don't do much IMing but I find it rather disjointed; I'm writing a reply while I'm getting another question/statement, which makes it hard to follow. Well, hard for me, but that could just be an age issue.

We might need a VC to be able to tell them about, regardless if we plan to win that way.

We had some earlier discussions on who would talk to whom, but I don't think those were written in stone.

 

[Provolution]

The letter is already sent.

 

[Provolution]

Recent intelligence from the settings screen:

We got 1.21 % of all the land, they got 1.0 %. This suggests that their capital has much more water tiles than ours, we need to calculate how many.
(23000/1.21) X 1 = 19000 SQ KM for Cavaleiros.

1000 SQ KM is one tile. This means that their capital has 10 land tiles and 11 water tiles. They also got some amount of forests, possibly 4. This leaves 6 no-forest tiles.

We got 26.92 % of the world population, they got 23 % (96000 vs 91 000).

 

[Kaleb]

The letter is already sent.

By who? Are we going to have an official spokesperson or no?

 

[Provolution]

The spokesperson for the diplomatic letters is Donsig. But I understood from the previous agreement I could chat with them when we met. Donsig does not have MSN, and is connected to Oyzar the way I am. Oyzar is their appointed ambassador, and a regular turnplayer.

 

[CommandoBob]

Anyone can chat with anyone (right ?) since it is just chatting. I view it similar to water-cooler gossip; mostly right but not always.

Anything offical and binding would be communicated via email. That would be like the 'offical' or 'company policy/decision'.

Disclaimer
Just my two cents worth on the issue.

 

[Indiansmoke]

The spokesperson for the diplomatic letters is Donsig. But I understood from the previous agreement I could chat with them when we met. Donsig does not have MSN, and is connected to Oyzar the way I am. Oyzar is their appointed ambassador, and a regular turnplayer.

I would be carefull chatting with Oyzar...We have played torgether in a few games and have chatted with him lots of times in Hamatchi and msn..

He is a master at extracting info from people, and at the same time making them feel they are getting more than they are giving.

This is a talent...I am crap at diplomacy myself....but I can tell when someone is talented and experienced...and Oyzar has made more diplo with humans in civilization than any other player.

He is also one of the best players around and his understanding of the game is top...which helps at knowing what is of value to say and what not..

Provolution...I am not saying, he is getting you fooled or anything...but I say be very carefull with chatting to him about this game.

 

[Provolution]

I know. You will see that Oyzar got no info from me, got complete chatlogs.


First chat with Oyzar (gave nothing out)

Spoiler :

oyzar sier:
hi
Mars sier:
hi
oyzar sier:
who is doing embassy / diplo for you guys?
Mars sier:
I am
oyzar sier:
goodie
someone will have a lot of trouble reading over msn logs then
Mars sier:
indeed
but we can make summaries with bullet points
oyzar sier:
(since i am diplo guy for us)
Mars sier:
and highlight key statements
oyzar sier:
yeah
Mars sier:
we are preparing a letter of presentation here
when its rubberstamped, I can paste it here
oyzar sier:
any convo before that still counts though
Mars sier:
exactly, which is why I am polite and reserved
since I know this will be posted somewhere
oyzar sier:
is it ok if i invite half a dozen idlers to our convo's from time to time?
Mars sier:
hmm
need to think of that
I use the same MSN for work and such
and I have plenty of eager civ4 questions from you
oyzar sier:
the rest of the people aren't that eager talking about civ i think
Mars sier:
we can do it for key meetings
not regular ones like this
announced meetings we can do it for
oyzar sier:
so what are your thoughts about the game so far?
Mars sier:
Well, I am happy with the team, our team, first of all
and it is interesting to see how the land influences choices
oyzar sier:
yeah
Mars sier:
I know you are an ace reading demographics charts
oyzar sier:
i am happy with our team, even though most are lurkers we do have an insane amount of potential, more importantly among the actually participating people we also have enough good people to go around
Mars sier:
I also think we can make this an opportunity to cooperate well
as we have actually met this early
oyzar sier:
indeed
Mars sier:
so I am positive
and the rest of the team is positive too
oyzar sier:
are you heading for a religion?
Mars sier:
cannot answer to that buddy
we have a foreign minister too
oyzar sier:
Well it would be easier to cooperate if we knew what each other are doing.. Though that all depends on the nature of our cooperation of course, but my intelligence squad tells me you guys are in fact not heading for a religion atm
Mars sier:
I can forward to the other folks the importance to answer that
oyzar sier:
i thought you said you were the foreign minister?
Mars sier:
I am the ambassador
Donsig handles overall foreign policy
he is the one writing diplomatic documents
oyzar sier:
discussions will go slow if you can't decide for yourself what you can and cannot say
Mars sier:
like the one we are forwarding
we just met
but we will have a crisp and clear info policy very very soon
I want a green light for what to say and not to say before I go ahead
as we are a team
oyzar sier:
well obviously...
Mars sier:
but i posted the question
but see it in a good light
I will have the full authority to say things when approved
and then we can have a more solid foundation
oyzar sier:
so do you have anything that you can and want to tell me?
Mars sier:
this will take a day or so
oyzar sier:
(or more like us)
Mars sier:
I think we can cooperate well together
as you are a naval oriented nation
and we a land oriented
a very good match
you being so ingenious to scout with a work boat, very clever, speaks volumes
oyzar sier:
I don't see why that matters, but our goals could be complementary and as such we might certainly want to cooperate with you(though nothing official on that yet)
Mars sier:
of course
there will be a roadmap and a treaty
oyzar sier:
have you met anyone else yet?
Mars sier:
I think a peace and non-aggression treaty as a base would make sense
I cannot answer to that question either
all in-game details I need an authority to go ahead on
oyzar sier:
well i can't sign anywhere near a nap yet, but personally i am positibly inclined to the idea
Mars sier:
I know that nothing can be signed now
I am merely presenting a roadmap
but obviously, our two nations are taking the lead, as it stands
and that adds to the benefit of teaming up
oyzar sier:
I'll tell you more about my ideas once the team agrees with me
brb
Mars sier:
and now that you sent a work boat from the capital as an emmisary, we can figure something out
oyzar sier:
back
Mars sier:
I think we can agree on stating how far we are from each other
that could be a start
I guess we have defined production and so on planned well ahead
oyzar sier:
bah hardly anyone online right now
i am impatient
Mars sier:
its ok
its a major breakthrough in the game we met
so we need people to speak their mind the first 48 hours
oyzar sier:
well if we can come to an agreement this should probably affect our tech choices...
Mars sier:
indeed
a tech agreement would be good
Greetings and Salutations Cavaleiros!

We saw your boats in the water and we are happy to meet people from so far away. It is always so nice to have new friends. We hope all is well and we look forward to getting to know you better. We would like to exchange emissaries soon so that we may discuss matters of a common interest that we may cooperate on.
Individually we are strong but together we would be even stronger. Working together would make us not only stronger but more knowledgeable as well.

We look forward to hearing back from you so that we may begin formal negotiations regarding peace, trade, etc.

Regards,
Team Kazakhstan
this was the official one
oyzar sier:
ok
Mars sier:
signed Foreign Minister Donsig
oyzar sier:
that doesn't actually tell me anything we don't know yet though
Mars sier:
i know
but its a nice letter
to show the good sentiment of our team
which helps

 

[CommandoBob]

Hmm.

Lots of verbal sparring going on in that chat. And not much data from either person.

Basically, we said, 'Hi! Let's do lunch sometime. See ya!'

Worry Wart?

I do not like the idea of making committments in a chat-format. And we did not; nor did they. And not that I distrust the person making the committment. The person is not the issue. Making a mistake (agreeing to something that may not be in our best interest) is. And there are many, many ways that could happen, as words get twisted. Where a nice, innocent stall of 'hmm, sounds like a good idea' becomes a full-fledged treaty because the other person interpreted it that way.

I understand that sometimes decisions have to be made and deals agreed to quickly. But I'm a wait and see and think it out kind of guy. I don't want to get bullied, badgered or hoodwinked into anything. And I'm afraid that could happen in a chatroom setting.

 

[damnrunner]

Copudl we get screen shots of the econ and mill graphs. That would help to better determine exactly where Cavaleiros is.

 

[Kaleb]

I do not like the idea of making committments in a chat-format. And we did not; nor did they. And not that I distrust the person making the committment. The person is not the issue. Making a mistake (agreeing to something that may not be in our best interest) is. And there are many, many ways that could happen, as words get twisted. Where a nice, innocent stall of 'hmm, sounds like a good idea' becomes a full-fledged treaty because the other person interpreted it that way.

I understand that sometimes decisions have to be made and deals agreed to quickly. But I'm a wait and see and think it out kind of guy. I don't want to get bullied, badgered or hoodwinked into anything. And I'm afraid that could happen in a chatroom setting.

When I was taking my turn oyzar was badgering me there for into as well, he's persistent.

Copudl we get screen shots of the econ and mill graphs. That would help to better determine exactly where Cavaleiros is.

The graphs won't show anything until we have invested sufficient espionage points

I think in this thread, rather than trying to plan where our future frontier will be and where our 5th 6th and 7th cities should be we should focus on trying to think what sort of trades we want to do with Team Cav in the near future.

We need to agree on the following points:

Are we happy to share what resources we have with each other? That can give us a clue as to whether we should go for sailing sooner rather than later. If we have different surplus resources we should look to get sailing as soon as we have surplus to trade (it won't be very long before we have a surplus gold and corn).

So question 1 for team cav: do you have any surplus resources to trade? If not, how long before you think you will?

 

[Jimmy369]

They will want to know what we have so that they can trade with us. How much do we tell them. Do we answer any of our own questions? ie. Ask about their tech. When we find out we tell them.

 

[Kaleb]

Can we agree on this first: We tell them the first 3 techs that we teched in exchange for them doing so too?

We are going for mysticism next anyway, right? We need that monument in city 4

 

[Sommerswerd]

I do not like the idea of making committments in a chat-format. I don't want to get bullied, badgered or hoodwinked into anything. And I'm afraid that could happen in a chatroom setting.

I agree with this. As has already been said, Oyzar is a master phisher so I am a little concerned that too much chat about the game will inadvertently give something away... At the same time, there is no way I would presume to tell anyone who they can chat with and what they can say. To me peoples personal lives, including what they say on MSM or anywhere else are just off limits unless they want to volunteer it. It is just a game afterall... Thanks for showing the chat logs Provo, very helpful and generous of you...

So question 1 for team cav: do you have any surplus resources to trade? If not, how long before you think you will?

I agree with this question exactly as it is phrased. I do not think we should disclose exactly what resources we have or what resources we are near (ie horse, copper), only what we are willing to trade. At least untill we know exactly where there land is and preferably a little more about their land cities, as well as at least one other rival, I prefer a more guarded, secretive stance (ie Soviet Union, United States) once we have alot more info, I prefer a more open transparent stance (ie European Union).

Can we agree on this first: We tell them the first 3 techs that we teched in exchange for them doing so too?

I like this idea as well. Since this is my first Democracy game, I don't know what usually happens, but early co-operative teching could give us a HUGE advantage over rivals, we should get that going as soon as possible. What about an agreement to go for different religions? This would be more tricky though since it might give away that we are nowhere near any religion.

 

[Kaleb]

It would be daft for us both to go for Buddhism, much better for one to go for one religion and the other another

 

[Sommerswerd]

It would be daft for us both to go for Buddhism, much better for one to go for one religion and the other another

Agreed, but how would we go about making a deal with them to do this?