On a side note, once Paper is finished, we can trade some worthless early tech to the AI players for their map (while keeping our map to ourself of course). This will make our exploration of the map quicker. They all want Alphabet right now. If we get Paper fast enough, we can trade Alphabet for maps and possibly some early techs.
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Civilization 7 has been announced. For more info please check the forum here .
SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
I have posted these screenshots and comments a little later than I had planned. Hopefully there is enough time for some friendly conversation about the TS before I play tonight. I plan to play in about 20 hours from now if there is a general concensus.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
I don't like - and not approve - your plan.
First, to get 1 or 2 more forests for "yellowstone" you place city @3 badly: the uranium (1F3H3G) will never be worked. Also, no way to access and work the clams: a city there will overlap too much.
Not to mention "yellowstone" settles on a good resource like wine.
If we build FP around a city 2W of rice we have high chances some more forest will pop. And a city 2W of rice let room for a good coastal city W of the river which can work clams.
We need forges NOW, not when the AI decide to research the tech AND is willing to trade it to us.
Please stop to figure a straight path to any tech like a great target:
Having lib on turn 95, 100 or 105 for rifling changes nothig: as i already said above, we need structures to build expensive units and to move them. A paratrooper cost more than a university.
Even the NP is not automatically built by the Bio tech. Sometime i tried to have this tech early and i need over 15 turns to build it in a undeveloped city.
This is not an OCC: a NP is good, not a must. We have other priorities.
If you like free specialists, why not beeline to Democracy and build SoL? One free Specialist in every city is better than 9 or 11 in a single one, since we need at least 16 cities or even 24-27 if we take all the continent.
Surely we'll go for it, but at the right time.
Calendar: Only AI with access to plantation resources will research it. Surely not Hammu. If we want it and if we want something to trade, better research it ourselves.
I'm tired to repeat: we need non-key techs to trade.
Or do you plan to research construction-eng since they are on the path to Bio? we can trade for them or at least for construction.
First, to get 1 or 2 more forests for "yellowstone" you place city @3 badly: the uranium (1F3H3G) will never be worked. Also, no way to access and work the clams: a city there will overlap too much.
Not to mention "yellowstone" settles on a good resource like wine.
If we build FP around a city 2W of rice we have high chances some more forest will pop. And a city 2W of rice let room for a good coastal city W of the river which can work clams.
We need forges NOW, not when the AI decide to research the tech AND is willing to trade it to us.
Please stop to figure a straight path to any tech like a great target:
Having lib on turn 95, 100 or 105 for rifling changes nothig: as i already said above, we need structures to build expensive units and to move them. A paratrooper cost more than a university.
Even the NP is not automatically built by the Bio tech. Sometime i tried to have this tech early and i need over 15 turns to build it in a undeveloped city.
This is not an OCC: a NP is good, not a must. We have other priorities.
If you like free specialists, why not beeline to Democracy and build SoL? One free Specialist in every city is better than 9 or 11 in a single one, since we need at least 16 cities or even 24-27 if we take all the continent.
Surely we'll go for it, but at the right time.
Calendar: Only AI with access to plantation resources will research it. Surely not Hammu. If we want it and if we want something to trade, better research it ourselves.
I'm tired to repeat: we need non-key techs to trade.
Or do you plan to research construction-eng since they are on the path to Bio? we can trade for them or at least for construction.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
I made an attempt LBulbing some 10 turns of edu, with my usual detours (MC and Calendar).
I popped rifling from Lib on turn 97.
Be aware: 7 cities settled.
First paratrooper out: turn 109. Capital needed to finish its structures before concentrate on war.
2 lessons learned:
1) better settle also the 3rd GS (hopefully)
2) we can't start a war with a decent army before turn 115.
I noticed another thing: the AI often DoWs me (us, maybe) around turn 100.
As i continue to say, we have no choices about the tech from Lib, if we want survive.
Have you ever tried to use a mace vs. a Xbow?
Also, remember there's the "no city razing" option enabled.
The only way to raze a city is refuse it if it revolts (tried, it works).
So i did for a couple barb cities in very bad spots.
A good AI can arrive to rifling around turn 150: (they usually take the "Guilds path")
- by then we must have took all our continent
- or decide to take only Hammu and be prepared to fight a defensive war. But paratroopers vs. paratroopers and rifles, not vs. middle-age units.
I popped rifling from Lib on turn 97.
Be aware: 7 cities settled.
First paratrooper out: turn 109. Capital needed to finish its structures before concentrate on war.
2 lessons learned:
1) better settle also the 3rd GS (hopefully)
2) we can't start a war with a decent army before turn 115.
I noticed another thing: the AI often DoWs me (us, maybe) around turn 100.
As i continue to say, we have no choices about the tech from Lib, if we want survive.
Have you ever tried to use a mace vs. a Xbow?
Also, remember there's the "no city razing" option enabled.
The only way to raze a city is refuse it if it revolts (tried, it works).
So i did for a couple barb cities in very bad spots.
A good AI can arrive to rifling around turn 150: (they usually take the "Guilds path")
- by then we must have took all our continent
- or decide to take only Hammu and be prepared to fight a defensive war. But paratroopers vs. paratroopers and rifles, not vs. middle-age units.
I'm with getting MC to get forges up. Production is everything IMO 
And I think a defensive war with paras will take too much in the way or resources. We'd need artillery to damage incoming stacks, and need air power, all are probably diversions. We'd also have to MM & whip like crazy to get the troops out to actually defend with.
Maybe we can vasalize one AI and take out another to secure our continent ?
And I think a defensive war with paras will take too much in the way or resources. We'd need artillery to damage incoming stacks, and need air power, all are probably diversions. We'd also have to MM & whip like crazy to get the troops out to actually defend with.
Maybe we can vasalize one AI and take out another to secure our continent ?
I just wanted to bump the comments by WT. I would also like to point out that he finished 2nd in G-Minor 69. I am well aware that it was OCC and this is not. The benefit of having multiple cities means that we should be able to finish faster than the OCC. The drawback is that key National Wonders have to be split between cities since there is a max of 2 per city. Those are the only differences. There is no need to settle or take 20+ cities. As WT said, anything over 6 cities is additional maintenance costs that detract from the end goal. It is proabably better to vassalize AI players rather than conquer them. We get the same security with less maintenance.
With six cities we should be able to get 3K+
per turn by the end of the game. To accomplish this we need a well developed NP city with maximum FP tiles and max food in the capital city where we will build OU, settle GP, and run as many scientists as possible. The other 4 or so cities need to have high production and the ability to run a few specialists as well to contribute to the research goal.We cannot be sidetracked by unnecessary techs or unnecessary warmongerning. This is a Space Race and not a domination game. The winner of SGOTM 9 will be the team who launches their SS first, not the team who conquers half of the world on the way to launching their SS.
Now in response to your critique of my superior plan. We do not need to work the Uranium. One scientist generates more than that tile. It is better to have 2-3 extra FP in the NP city than to cram cities in to gain one additional resource tile. We will have access to the Uranium when our borders pop. This will be well ahead of the time when Uranium will be necessary to build nuclear power plants if we decide to use them. Maximizing FP in the NP city is a priority. I would make the same argument for the Wine. It would have been much more beneficial to our end game to settle next to the two Corn tiles and have 2 working farms in the capital, but we listened to you and settled on the Corn. We gave up a lot more by settling on the Corn than we do by settling on the Wine. We actually have a net gain my settling on the Wine since the extra FP will produce extra commerce, extra scientists, and extra great people.
than that tile. It is better to have 2-3 extra FP in the NP city than to cram cities in to gain one additional resource tile. We will have access to the Uranium when our borders pop. This will be well ahead of the time when Uranium will be necessary to build nuclear power plants if we decide to use them. Maximizing FP in the NP city is a priority. I would make the same argument for the Wine. It would have been much more beneficial to our end game to settle next to the two Corn tiles and have 2 working farms in the capital, but we listened to you and settled on the Corn. We gave up a lot more by settling on the Corn than we do by settling on the Wine. We actually have a net gain my settling on the Wine since the extra FP will produce extra commerce, extra scientists, and extra great people.Near term goals are to complete the Pyramids and to tech towards Education and Astronomy. We need to maximize research to be competative in this SGOTM. The quicker we get Representation and have a Specialist Economy up and running, the quicker we will finish this game. Right now we can build Libraries. In a few TS we will be able to build Universities, Observatories, and Laboratories in our cities.
MC and Forges can wait. Don't worry, we will have them in time to crank out a few Paratroopers for our war with Hammy. Once Hammy (and other nearby AI players on our continent) are our vassals, we will be able to concentrate on the task of building SS components.
MC and Forges can wait. Don't worry, we will have them in time to crank out a few Paratroopers for our war with Hammy. Once Hammy (and other nearby AI players on our continent) are our vassals, we will be able to concentrate on the task of building SS components.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
We can't discuss later any of the things you mentioned.
We must decide them before you play.
A forge will arrive for free in LP if we research MC immediately.
As i already said, this will not speed the mids, but will give us the forge for free.
I got big doubts on your proposed cities placement, since we must probably renounce to a healthy resource.
But you're right, 1 more sci is better than the uranium or the wine.
I'm still convinced that settle on corn was a great move: LP can't grow so fast, and it gained the fish. There was no other way to have 2 corns and fish while keeping a good production. And the copper just adds to that move.
But your thoughts about not conquer the entire continent surely deserve attention.
To verify this, i'll run a test. You can be right.
Forget about vassallize: to do this we need to conquer the Capital of the AI and for sure there's not a capital close to us, or we already have contact with the other(s) AI.
If we find a good choke point it will be enough to keep the AI at bay.
Some Intelligence Agency will protect us from espionage.
But this is matter to discuss after turn 100.
For now, just tell me why we have to wait to research a tech we can research right now.
Do you hope to trade for it? Forget it.
Which techs do you think to offer in trade? Paper? forget it.
Edu will not gives us free universities, we must build them!!!
This is a very particular map, not the ones we HoF players are used to.
We must decide them before you play.
A forge will arrive for free in LP if we research MC immediately.
As i already said, this will not speed the mids, but will give us the forge for free.
I got big doubts on your proposed cities placement, since we must probably renounce to a healthy resource.
But you're right, 1 more sci is better than the uranium or the wine.
I'm still convinced that settle on corn was a great move: LP can't grow so fast, and it gained the fish. There was no other way to have 2 corns and fish while keeping a good production. And the copper just adds to that move.
But your thoughts about not conquer the entire continent surely deserve attention.
To verify this, i'll run a test. You can be right.
Forget about vassallize: to do this we need to conquer the Capital of the AI and for sure there's not a capital close to us, or we already have contact with the other(s) AI.
If we find a good choke point it will be enough to keep the AI at bay.
Some Intelligence Agency will protect us from espionage.
But this is matter to discuss after turn 100.
For now, just tell me why we have to wait to research a tech we can research right now.
Do you hope to trade for it? Forget it.
Which techs do you think to offer in trade? Paper? forget it.
Edu will not gives us free universities, we must build them!!!
This is a very particular map, not the ones we HoF players are used to.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
To clarify some of my previous points:
Mesix's city placement will force us to renounce to a good city (the one on the coastal river).
Forge/Pyramids: maybe the forge can save 1 turn, much will depend from MM.
We'll chop intensively: the hill for the WM and ALL the forests south, outside tyhe BFC.
Forgot this: DON'T farm the corn until after Pyramids. LP can't grow with it.
Granary right after Mids.
Mesix's city placement will force us to renounce to a good city (the one on the coastal river).
Forge/Pyramids: maybe the forge can save 1 turn, much will depend from MM.
We'll chop intensively: the hill for the WM and ALL the forests south, outside tyhe BFC.
Forgot this: DON'T farm the corn until after Pyramids. LP can't grow with it.
Granary right after Mids.
After much thought while out with the family today, I have convinced myself that MC now is a good move. I can't believe you hadn't come up with the argument that I used to sway my own opinion in your favor. If we research MC now, we can get forges in before we research Education. Once we do, the Universities will be build 25% faster which means that we can make up the time spent researching MC through faster use of Universities (and perhaps Observatories and Laboratories as well if Astronomy comes soon enough).
Now about the city placement. My priority is to get maximum FP in the NP city. I realize that it is only one city (and this is not an OCC), but more scientists is key to getting maximum tech pace. Do you see a better location for the NP city than on top of the Wine resource? Based on the placement of the NP city, what is the best location for Sparta (which will be settled on my TS) to plan for settling NP city in the future?
You're right. We can discuss war plans in more detail after turn 100.
Just because we are going for vassalize and not conquest doesn;t mean that we must not take many cities on the way to this goal. We can take most of Hammy's cities (including his capital) until he is ready to submit to our superior Paratrooper force. Once he is our vassal, we can gift back most of the cities (perhaps keeping one or two if they are good). This will give us a happy vassal on our border and also build a good buffer zone between him and any AI player that may lie on the other side. Better that Hammy loses one or two cities when we DOW the next guy then us...right?
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
As i said, the best location for the NP are 2: The city 2W of rice or the coastal city W of river. Much will depend by the forest situation when we'll take the decision: we can help forests pop with FP or they can even pop spontaneously, even before we settle the cities.
In my tests i usually have 9-10 forests in the city 2W of rice. I consider this good enough. We can also have a couple specialists (not free) in the coastal city, which has good food.
Thus, Sparta will go where i indicated. It will have maybe 1 tile overlapping, surely not a problem.
FYI i'm trying without war to any AI other than Hammu.
First, wipe Hammu is a must, or his former cities will have big problems of happiness and of tiles to work.
Second, despite IA in any city, i suffer from continous sabotages and a DoW.
And, most important, the research suffers from not having some 10 cities with their specialists and so on. To make it short, i'll launch after my best date with a nice war.
I popped only GSs, GEs and 1 GPr from Athens.
Bur we agree on this: let's talk of war after turn 100.
edit: another alternative comes in mind: LP has/will have 8 FP: with Oxford and NP its science output will be impressive. The counter to LP is that we can't build also the NE. And i don't see another city where to build it.
But in most attempts i popped a GS around the time NP was completed (turn 140-145) an academy in the NP city can be a good choice.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
More info on my semi-peaceful test: I launched on turn 198, with 3 casings out of 5, just to see what happens:
mission failed!!!
despite 2 engines and 5 thursters.
I could research 2366bpt @100%-69gpt with 3 cities producing Wealth and 3 Research (including Capital and NP city with Academy).
1 Gs could LB for 1439b.
I did this for test the chances to not complete the SS and to avoid discussions when the time will come.
I also made a test with only 1 engine: it needs 1 or 2 turns more to arrive. We'll win when the SS will arrive.
In my best attempt with all our continent owned, i could research > 3K bpt (almost 5K in GAge) with no cities producing wealth or research, and a GS could LB for over 1600b.
Launched on turn 191, with all the components.
In a GAge, i could research the satellites/composites combo in TOTAL 2 turns.
In this last peaceful attempt, i needed 4 turns and found myself with not enough powerful cities to complete the casings in a decent time. The most powerful ones were busy with other components.
Think in this way: after we'll arrive at 12 cities (a bit less than after we'll get the Baylonian cities) we'll arrive at the max maintenance for number of cities: 6 gpt in any city.
Every city after the 12th will NOT increase this cost. We'll pay only the distance from Palace.
In my best attempt i took a detour to divine right and built Versailles in a southern city (while starting the war with the southern AI) and the FP in Babylon. This way i drastically reduced the DFP costs and paid the 2-3 turns detour in few turns. I also founded Islam and so i have some more happiness from FR in a couple cities, but this is only a side effect.
To complete this report, let's go further.
We can buid a library in any city in no time and a university in few more, often 1turn each in some good city.
We'll own the SoL. Sure like hell.
A free specialist in any added city will add at least 3 raw beakers (i usually keep engineers to speed the infrastructures) first build for newly conquered cities: Odeon/CH then library/Univ. This means that any city if crappy will gives no less than 40 bpt at 50% research. Any city will have some windmill, some FP or some ocean tile.
Our Bureau Capital with academy and OU, 4 GS+1GG settled, 3 sci+3eng at work gave 750 bpt @100% producing research with factory and power (not to mention any possible building).
10 crappy cities can give more than 400 bpt @50%. Some city will be all but crappy.
What do you think about war?
Another question, or matter of debate comes in mind: almost sacrilegious, but if we are so lucky to not pop a GSpy, we should consider to burn a GS on a GAge. As i tested (but it's simple math) we have more benefits from LB than from settle/academy after turn 150 or so. But what if we launch a GAge?
This game is strange, let's think unusual. It's not the strongest of the species that survive, but the most ...
or win a medal.
Matley, do something
...
...
medal, medal
mission failed!!!
despite 2 engines and 5 thursters.
I could research 2366bpt @100%-69gpt with 3 cities producing Wealth and 3 Research (including Capital and NP city with Academy).
1 Gs could LB for 1439b.
I did this for test the chances to not complete the SS and to avoid discussions when the time will come.
I also made a test with only 1 engine: it needs 1 or 2 turns more to arrive. We'll win when the SS will arrive.
In my best attempt with all our continent owned, i could research > 3K bpt (almost 5K in GAge) with no cities producing wealth or research, and a GS could LB for over 1600b.
Launched on turn 191, with all the components.
In a GAge, i could research the satellites/composites combo in TOTAL 2 turns.
In this last peaceful attempt, i needed 4 turns and found myself with not enough powerful cities to complete the casings in a decent time. The most powerful ones were busy with other components.
Think in this way: after we'll arrive at 12 cities (a bit less than after we'll get the Baylonian cities) we'll arrive at the max maintenance for number of cities: 6 gpt in any city.
Every city after the 12th will NOT increase this cost. We'll pay only the distance from Palace.
In my best attempt i took a detour to divine right and built Versailles in a southern city (while starting the war with the southern AI) and the FP in Babylon. This way i drastically reduced the DFP costs and paid the 2-3 turns detour in few turns. I also founded Islam and so i have some more happiness from FR in a couple cities, but this is only a side effect.
To complete this report, let's go further.
We can buid a library in any city in no time and a university in few more, often 1turn each in some good city.
We'll own the SoL. Sure like hell.
A free specialist in any added city will add at least 3 raw beakers (i usually keep engineers to speed the infrastructures) first build for newly conquered cities: Odeon/CH then library/Univ. This means that any city if crappy will gives no less than 40 bpt at 50% research. Any city will have some windmill, some FP or some ocean tile.
Our Bureau Capital with academy and OU, 4 GS+1GG settled, 3 sci+3eng at work gave 750 bpt @100% producing research with factory and power (not to mention any possible building).
10 crappy cities can give more than 400 bpt @50%. Some city will be all but crappy.
What do you think about war?
Another question, or matter of debate comes in mind: almost sacrilegious, but if we are so lucky to not pop a GSpy, we should consider to burn a GS on a GAge. As i tested (but it's simple math) we have more benefits from LB than from settle/academy after turn 150 or so. But what if we launch a GAge?
This game is strange, let's think unusual. It's not the strongest of the species that survive, but the most ...
or win a medal.
Matley, do something
...
...
medal, medal
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
This post will be linked on my #3.
Here the best tech path i've found for the final SS rush.
I invite you all to test this with alternatives. When the time will come we must be prepared.
Industrialism (to see aluminum) then rocketry (plenty of time to build Apollo).
Combustion/plastics combo, 3GD in 7-8 turns.
Fission/Computers/FO/Fusion combo: the 2 engines will be built in Capital and in another powerful city. Not in the most powerful.
Genetics: our powerhouse will build the part, followed by the one from satellites.
Satellites/Composites combo: our best cities will start the casings. Thursters will be already built, probably by those same cities.
Ecology for the last and cheaper part, probably in LP.
Needless to say, any city will have factory and lab. Power will be given by the 3GD. The probable island city will build a Coal Plant.
No Nuclear, ever. I experienced meltdowns in the past. Unpleasant.
The space elevator is completely useless, and it's a tech detour (in Vanilla/Warlords Robotics unlocks a SS part, not in BtS).
Here the best tech path i've found for the final SS rush.
I invite you all to test this with alternatives. When the time will come we must be prepared.
Industrialism (to see aluminum) then rocketry (plenty of time to build Apollo).
Combustion/plastics combo, 3GD in 7-8 turns.
Fission/Computers/FO/Fusion combo: the 2 engines will be built in Capital and in another powerful city. Not in the most powerful.
Genetics: our powerhouse will build the part, followed by the one from satellites.
Satellites/Composites combo: our best cities will start the casings. Thursters will be already built, probably by those same cities.
Ecology for the last and cheaper part, probably in LP.
Needless to say, any city will have factory and lab. Power will be given by the 3GD. The probable island city will build a Coal Plant.
No Nuclear, ever. I experienced meltdowns in the past. Unpleasant.
The space elevator is completely useless, and it's a tech detour (in Vanilla/Warlords Robotics unlocks a SS part, not in BtS).
greatbeyond
King
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2002
- Messages
- 987
I think the tech path both Mesix and
I proposed earlier is the smartest path to take.
"To get to Rifling, we need four techs (Paper (6T), Education (22T), Gunpowder (14T), and Rifling(T24). This will get us Paratroopers to fight a war."
An alternative path is to go Monarchy, Feudalism, Guilds, Gunpowder, Rifling. This saves us 6 turns but that is not counting using a GS to LB part or all of Education. Aren't GMs able to bulb GP?
Using a GS to cut the research time for Education would get us Paras that much quicker. Despite what your experience has been, I have been able to trade for MC. We have a huge advantage right at the moment of being able to broker techs to the AI without them being able to broker between themselves. We could even gift the AIs the prerequisites for MC right now. One of them is going to research it. We will have CoL to trade as well as Currency. Remember the further along the tech tree we are, the cheaper the early techs will be.
I have been able to get Paras before the AI even got LBs. I'll take 6 - 8 Paras against Hammi's Bowmen and even XBs (make it a point to take out his Iron). We take him out quickly or vassalize him. Keep in mind that we can't gift too many cities back too him (or let him grow too much) or he'll break free from our protection. Vassalizing requires Feudalism. The one good thing is that if we vassalize him, we can demand his techs, resources, and direct his research. This would be a good method to get all the early techs and concentrate on the more advanced techs.
The comment about this being the quickest SR and not a Domination then SR is true, but if we don't play from a position of strength we'll end up regretting it. We only wage war long enough to secure our continent and set the AIs way back.
As for the city placement, I prefer settling the next city along the coast (1N of the Cow) an alternative could be 1E of the Rice, but that loses fresh water. Of course health should not be too great a factor for awhile, and it saves the Clams for another city between there and LP.
I won't get a chance to play some tests until tomorrow as it is 10PM here. I think we need more discussion and some play testing. Perhaps tomorrow I could update the latest test save with the new info.
I proposed earlier is the smartest path to take.
"To get to Rifling, we need four techs (Paper (6T), Education (22T), Gunpowder (14T), and Rifling(T24). This will get us Paratroopers to fight a war."
An alternative path is to go Monarchy, Feudalism, Guilds, Gunpowder, Rifling. This saves us 6 turns but that is not counting using a GS to LB part or all of Education. Aren't GMs able to bulb GP?
Using a GS to cut the research time for Education would get us Paras that much quicker. Despite what your experience has been, I have been able to trade for MC. We have a huge advantage right at the moment of being able to broker techs to the AI without them being able to broker between themselves. We could even gift the AIs the prerequisites for MC right now. One of them is going to research it. We will have CoL to trade as well as Currency. Remember the further along the tech tree we are, the cheaper the early techs will be.
I have been able to get Paras before the AI even got LBs. I'll take 6 - 8 Paras against Hammi's Bowmen and even XBs (make it a point to take out his Iron). We take him out quickly or vassalize him. Keep in mind that we can't gift too many cities back too him (or let him grow too much) or he'll break free from our protection. Vassalizing requires Feudalism. The one good thing is that if we vassalize him, we can demand his techs, resources, and direct his research. This would be a good method to get all the early techs and concentrate on the more advanced techs.
The comment about this being the quickest SR and not a Domination then SR is true, but if we don't play from a position of strength we'll end up regretting it. We only wage war long enough to secure our continent and set the AIs way back.
As for the city placement, I prefer settling the next city along the coast (1N of the Cow) an alternative could be 1E of the Rice, but that loses fresh water. Of course health should not be too great a factor for awhile, and it saves the Clams for another city between there and LP.
I won't get a chance to play some tests until tomorrow as it is 10PM here. I think we need more discussion and some play testing. Perhaps tomorrow I could update the latest test save with the new info.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
I think you haven't read my posts.
I agree that this is the shortest path to have the possibility to build paratroopers. But then we have to build them. And to move them. Without forges and airports no way to do in the right way. Forges will help any build, not only paratroopers: workers, settlers, airports, universities. Airports will give +1TR and this is important for our research. Not to mention universities and workers. We can surely trade for monarchy and soon, i think. Also i manage to always trade for Feud, often for Guilds. I has also the techs to trade, surely not Edu. I can't even consider this path, it's a pure waste. And we'll not use a GS to LB part of Edu.
To see my thoughts and the results of my tests just read my previous posts.
As i said, let's talk about war after turn 100.
For now, my golden rule: take no prisoners. Or no vassals.
PLease read my #415 about crappy cities.
GB, we start discussing MC and 3rd city placement 2 days ago. Have you read any post about that?
I'm tired to test, show you evident holes in your plans (but once the opposite), then do it again just because you missed some post.
Trust me, i tested all the possibilities. I'm proposing the shortest path to victory, not necessarily the shortest path to paratroopers or anything else.
Now, just tell me what Hammu smoked in your tests. In mine he always got LBs, often even maces.
But this is not a great difference for 24 strenght unit.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
There's another variable we may also discuss.
Not build pyramids, but maces.
Hammu does NOT have IW for now, so no iron, no xbows.
If we road to his territory and quickly build some 4-5 maces we can easily wipe him in few turns. And avoid some crappy city.
Probably we'll lose pyramids, but we'll renounce to representation for some 50 turns, then we can have Nationalism-Constitution. We need to research those techs anyway ourselves.
IF you think this can be interesting, i can run some test with this strategy.
Nothing will change for Sparta placement, not for the MC tech.
Not build pyramids, but maces.
Hammu does NOT have IW for now, so no iron, no xbows.
If we road to his territory and quickly build some 4-5 maces we can easily wipe him in few turns. And avoid some crappy city.
Probably we'll lose pyramids, but we'll renounce to representation for some 50 turns, then we can have Nationalism-Constitution. We need to research those techs anyway ourselves.
IF you think this can be interesting, i can run some test with this strategy.
Nothing will change for Sparta placement, not for the MC tech.
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