SGOTM 09 - Misfits

ChrisFromLux · May 16, 2009

Turnset finally done.

In short, we have:
- captured Sippar and Opis
- learned Biology, Constitution and Corporation
- completed the Taj Mahal and started our well-earned, first Golden Age

Looks like a good point to hand over the save.

In general, everything went according to plan, except for Hammurabi, who put up quite a fight. Even with Uber-units, being outnumbered ~3:1 and using no Siege Weapons was ... ahem, strange, but interesting :mischief:

Some details:

T125 (inherited)
- sold Corn to HC for 4 :gold:

- resold Fur to Joao for 7 :gold:

(+2)
- disbanded Red Shirt, saving 1 :gold:

IBT
- GE born in Lake Mastiff

T126
- GE fortifies in Jericho's Hill; he would net us 589 :hammers:

IBT
- GE born in Cuzco :mad:

T127
- 4 Troopers drop next to Sippar, defended by 3 units
- 2 Troopers stay in Dur-K, to heal and defend

IBT
- Hammurabi completes the Spiral Minaret in Babylon
- 2 CR3-Medic1-Macemen land on Bear Town's cows
- ... and ... Huayna Capac completes the Broadway

- Bye Bye, Great Engineer :wavey:

T128
- the 1st Trooper (Fort-Killer) moves to Opis; there are 5 defenders! :eek:

- 2 Troopers (CiB and SS) follow him
- in Sippar, Hammurabi has called back a Maceman who was on his way to Dur-K and he whipped another unit, making it 5 defenders as well

- nevertheless, our Troopers kill 3 of them, leaving 2 defenders
- our Merchant has arrived in Cuzco; there are no mines ... and his trademission gives us the ~expected 1541 :gold:

- as a result of the Merchant's discovery, I decide to go back to our initial plan and delay the Taj Mahal by 2 turns
- the Rifle and an XBow kill both Barbs on the Cows
- our XBow in the south kills Hammurabi's Bowman, giving him 2XP ... and allows him to be another Medic
- I cancel our gift of Copper and Fur to Huayna, and trade Fur for Hit Musicals
- I switch back more Espionage-points to Huayna, to keep his research visible

IBT
- Hammurabi gets another Great Artist ... while writing this, I notice that I don't know what he used him for

T129
- we capture Sippar, losing 1 Trooper; gives us 130 :gold:

, city maintenance goes from 46 to 58, and total expenses rise from 183 to 205. Ouch!
- we start our first round of attacks on Opis, killing 2 defenders, but losing 1 Trooper

IBT
- Wang Kon asks for Electricity; No!
- Joao completes the University of Sankore

T130
- I renewed our resource-deal with Stalin, for 2 :gold:

more
- our Missionary from CIB confuses Two Rivers, and I insert a Temple instead of the planned Courthouse, for more hammers
- a Great General is born in Lake Mastiff. I send him to Sleep's Shock, where I would settle him for 2 promotions out of the box. But I don't use him, and keep the possibility open of making him an Uber-Trooper or a Super-Medic.
- in Opis, there are still too many defenders, while we only have 2 Troopers in position so far. As a result, 1 Trooper kills a defender, but the other Trooper does not attack, at only 68% odds.
- 1 new Trooper from Jericho's Hill joins in, and 2 Troopers drop from Sippar to Dur-K, from where they can reach Babylon and Opis next turn. I start to really love Troopers

- By the way, although Hammurabi kept reinforcing all his cities, he still has 6 defenders in Babylon, as well as 2 Catapults and 6 Airships. Who said that he didn't have any units :confused:

IBT
- Joao asks us to adopt Taoism, which he had spread into Food Heaven earlier. Couldn't he wait 2 more turns? :mad:

- Ap-resolution comes up to stop this unholy war between our brothers and sisters. Nevertheless, we vote "No"

T131
- 3 more defenders have been killed in Opis, but there are still 2 left

IBT
- for some reason, the AP-resolution fails

T132
- Jericho's Hill completes the Taj Mahal
- we net 139 :gold:

from not completing it in Sushi de Luxe
- Opis is finally captured, at size 1, netting us only 86 :gold:

, and raising maintenance from 60 to 63 or total expenses from 215 to 216
- we adopt Free Religion and Representation
- I only moved the cottaging workers around Jericho's Hill, as well as the Airships and 2 Troopers to capture Opis. All other units can still move.
- I move our Galleon towards Sippar, and I hope Hammurabi uses 1 Airship/turn to attack the ship instead of a Trooper. In my experience, the AI loves to attack ships with them ...

Finally, the link to the save ... and the logs will follow in the next post, as they start becoming to long.

ChrisFromLux · May 16, 2009

Still too many characters to put both logs into 1 post ...

Spoiler Auto Log :

ChrisFromLux · May 16, 2009

... makes a 3rd post necessary, where I still had to cut out the details of some fights :crazyeye:

Spoiler Upload Log :

JerichoHill · May 16, 2009

Ham whipped units.

How many troopers assaulting Babylon now?

I think that's a good turnset, got the Taj!

haphazard1 · May 16, 2009

I will look at the save shortly and post more detailed comments, but it sounds like a pretty good turnset, Chris! :goodjob:

As expected, Hammi has been whipping like a madman.

We will end up capturing very small cities after killing lots of defenders, but there really is no help for it.

Opis is taken...should relieve the culture pressure on CiB and make it much harder for Hammi to move anything into our territory.

OK, off to check the save.

haphazard1 is UP! to continue conquering Babylon.
Mastiff is on deck.

ChrisFromLux · May 16, 2009

JerichoHill said:
Ham whipped units.

Of course he did ... but even on the very first turn, there were a lot of units in and around Babylon!

JerichoHill said:
How many troopers assaulting Babylon now?

None right now, but Hap can have some 8 Troopers outside the city in 2 turns!

haphazard1 said:
Opis is taken...should relieve the culture pressure on CiB and make it much harder for Hammi to move anything into our territory.

Yep ... full effect will only be visible next turn, though. And remember that 2nd Great Artist he got. I don't know if he culture-bombed that one as well :confused:

KaleLambiek · May 16, 2009

Nice report Chris

Except no screenies

ChrisFromLux said:
T125 (inherited)
- sold Corn to HC for 4
- resold Fur to Joao for 7 (+2)
- disbanded Red Shirt, saving 1

Ching

ChrisFromLux said:
IBT
- GE born in Lake Mastiff

What do we do with him? Settle him for ~500 beakers 200 hammers?
Or Rush Cristo or keep around for The Gorge??

I like keeping him for the Gorge, Instant power

OK Not quite instant but much quicker anyways.
Cristo we will not use for a while anyway...

ChrisFromLux said:
T127
- 4 Troopers drop next to Sippar, defended by 3 units
- 2 Troopers stay in Dur-K, to heal and defend

1 would have been enough, or were two so damaged that they both needed to heal??

ChrisFromLux said:
- ... and ... Huayna Capac completes the Broadway
- Bye Bye, Great Engineer

And we get the musicals too

ChrisFromLux said:
- our XBow in the south kills Hammurabi's Bowman, giving him 2XP ... and allows him to be another Medic

Thank you bowman

ChrisFromLux said:
IBT
- Hammurabi gets another Great Artist ... while writing this, I notice that I don't know what he used him for

I hope he settled him

ChrisFromLux said:
T129
- we capture Sippar, losing 1 Trooper; gives us 130, city maintenance goes from 46 to 58, and total expenses rise from 183 to 205. Ouch!
- we start our first round of attacks on Opis, killing 2 defenders, but losing 1 Trooper

Some losses were to be expected

ChrisFromLux said:
- Joao completes the University of Sankore

Come on Joao, go for Versailles !! Go for Versailles ! Wait a second... Did he research paper?? LOL

ChrisFromLux said:
- a Great General is born in Lake Mastiff. I send him to Sleep's Shock, where I would settle him for 2 promotions out of the box. But I don't use him, and keep the possibility open of making him an Uber-Trooper or a Super-Medic.

I think I will take the 2 xp...

ChrisFromLux said:
- we net 139 from not completing it in Sushi de Luxe

There we go... money !!!!

ChrisFromLux said:
- Opis is finally captured, at size 1, netting us only 86, and raising maintenance from 60 to 63 or total expenses from 215 to 216

Is this right? Maintenance +3 total cost +1 ??? Strange...

Nice set Chris, barring the dead troopers

but that cannot really be helped

Comments on the save:
- GMs in LM
We need/can up this considerably atleast to 6, maybe 7 during the GA to up the GM chances there, to bad about the 1 turn scientists....
6 is probably the magic number though....

- CiB
Needs to work that Windmilled hill.

- SdL
You are building a trooper here without a barracks... We dont need troopers that bad, beakers/gold we want from SdL. Perhaps we can build some (3 or 4) Zeppelins in SdL to help with the second-stack-to-be-formed. 9 Troopers now, + 3 or so makes a nice 12 = 2 stacks post Babylon?

- BT
Why not a temple?? Now we finish the Forge first I think? Then temple

- FH
This will delay the GP from FH a little, but we are losing a lot by not working the Milled hill...
Running just 4 is not going to be enough anyways.... We have to either run 5 during the GA or we can run 3 now, grow a pop and continue to run 4 after that...
With 5 we beat CiB to 670 on turn 150.
With 4 we do not and only spawn at 804 on turn 158.
If we do 3,3,3,3,4,4 during the GA and 4 beyond we still get that GP at turn 159 on 804 GPP from FH.

- Worker South of GV
Is building a Cottage on grass

Plains would have been SO MUCH better. At +9 food we need to use that food....

- Dur K
Why work a merchant there? Why not the copper mine??

- JH
Christo... when do we need it?? Not for a while yet I think??
Suggest we swap the Engineer for a scientist (for 1 turn) and non-build the Heroic epic 1 turn (132 gold)
Then re-hire the engineer and non-build National Epic one turn. (134 gold)
Trooper > Trooper
R&R ? or more troopers?

- Sleeps
After growing a pop and working a preserve at 37 base hammers/turn +125% = 83 hammers per turn... NE at 167 is a perfect 2 turn non-build.
Trooper > Dump overflow to Eifel or Trooper or something
NE 2 turns (non-build!) 136 gold
HE

Other cities to be looked at, *erm* later today

Edit:
I suggest we sell our Maps around for 250 gold all together...

haphazard1 · May 16, 2009

OK, took a quick look around. Overall our situation is pretty good.

- We are starting to get WW. Grapeville has become unhappy (1 citizen), and Bear Town and Sushi deLuxe only have 1 spare happy. We are going to need more happiness real soon now...like those whales. Why have we not gotten a WB for those already?

- The HE has been unlocked; it will only take 2 turns in Sleeps, so I think we build it immediately and then keep cranking out paratroopers.

- HC is working on Rifling, 7 turns. At which point he can build Paras...and may trade the tech to other civs so they can build paras.

The era of cheap conquests may end rather quickly. If Joao gets paras, we are not going to conquer him without siege weapons and tanks, and lots of units. We will have to keep a close eye on how quickly the tech spreads. For now the other AIs are still multiple techs away. If we do want to conquer Joao, we should probably do so immediately after Hammi.

- Music is available from Hammi, and is also known by HC (but not willing to trade, since we have gone to Rep). I do not think Music is valuable to us, certainly not enough to make a peace deal and delay finishing Hammi by 10 turns.

- GG currently in Sleeps: I think we settle him there as an instructor for the +2 XP and get 5 XP units from our HE city. This should be far more valuable than a super-medic or super-attacker, and also more valuable than a military academy (not that we can build one right now anyway).

- GE currently in JH: I assume we use him for the Cristo (this turn)? What to do then in JH? Build R&R, about 7 turns or so? The happiness would be nice, boosting our odeons as well. Put turns into Eiffel? Although maybe we hold off on that so we can get some good non-building hammers into it. Just build more paras to accelerate the war effort?

- Our next GP should come from JH in 5 turns. Current odds:

Prophet 60%
Scientist 15%
Engineer 25%

Prophet gets saved for golden age fodder, presumably? Not sure on the others; engineer maybe for Three Gorges?

- What is our tech path after Printing Press and Democracy? Steam Power for faster workers, coal, and levees looks pretty good. Plus it opens up Assembly Line for factories and power. Steel for cannon and Iron Works? Also opens Railroad, but that requires Steam Power as well.

- Good progress on getting JH ready for the big Emancipation conversion.

When we do start finishing those cottages, what do we want to put all the chop hammers into? R&R? Paras? Other?

I will start putting together an initial turnset plan, but need feedback from the rest of the team (obviousyl!).

Nice work, Chris! :goodjob:

haphazard1 · May 16, 2009

KaleLambiek said:
What do we do with him? Settle him for ~500 beakers 200 hammers?
Or Rush Cristo or keep around for The Gorge??

I like keeping him for the Gorge, Instant power OK Not quite instant but much quicker anyways.
Cristo we will not use for a while anyway...

We will want Cristo so we can swap to US + FS at some point, probably about 28 turns from now or slightly more, depending on timing of the big cottage conversion at JH. Without a golden age, figure Cristo is about 10 turns in JH? Maybe that drops if we get a levee, factory, etc into the city before we build Cristo.

Cristo would also be nice for being able to respond to diplo demands like Joao's without costing ourselves much.

Or quick jumps into OR or Pacifism, or Slavery, etc. So there is value in building Cristo now. Enough to be worth spending the GE? Not sure.

KaleLambiek said:
I hope he settled him

We can hope. I did not see a note of a Hammi golden age, although he could have bulbed him.

KaleLambiek said:
Come on Joao, go for Versailles !! Go for Versailles ! Wait a second... Did he research paper?? LOL

Versailles waiting for us down south would be nice.

KaleLambiek said:
I think I will take the 2 xp...

KaleLambiek said:
Is this right? Maintenance +3 total cost +1 ??? Strange...

That does sound weird. The +3 city cost I can believe, since it is size 1 and not too far from our capital.

KaleLambiek said:
Comments on the save:
- GMs in LM
We need/can up this considerably atleast to 6, maybe 7 during the GA to up the GM chances there, to bad about the 1 turn scientists....
6 is probably the magic number though....

Will definitely try to squeeze in extra specialists wherever possible during the GA. Or will it only help in selected cities?

KaleLambiek said:
- CiB
Needs to work that Windmilled hill.

Stops the starvation, more hammers and commerce. A few GPP lost during a golden age, but no help for it.

KaleLambiek said:
- SdL
You are building a trooper here without a barracks... We dont need troopers that bad, beakers/gold we want from SdL. Perhaps we can build some (3 or 4) Zeppelins in SdL to help with the second-stack-to-be-formed. 9 Troopers now, + 3 or so makes a nice 12 = 2 stacks post Babylon?

We could add a barracks here easily enough, if we want to. Depends if we want JH to build some more troops, or spend its time on wonders. Although Sleeps with HE will be turning out paras pretty rapidly.

KaleLambiek said:
- BT
Why not a temple?? Now we finish the Forge first I think? Then temple

- FH
This will delay the GP from FH a little, but we are losing a lot by not working the Milled hill...
Running just 4 is not going to be enough anyways.... We have to either run 5 during the GA or we can run 3 now, grow a pop and continue to run 4 after that...
With 5 we beat CiB to 670 on turn 150.
With 4 we do not and only spawn at 804 on turn 158.
If we do 3,3,3,3,4,4 during the GA and 4 beyond we still get that GP at turn 159 on 804 GPP from FH.

Will check.

KaleLambiek said:
- Worker South of GV
Is building a Cottage on grass Plains would have been SO MUCH better. At +9 food we need to use that food....

City is losing production due to unhappiness -- should shift from grass farms for more hammers, at least until we get more happiness here. As for the grass cottage -- we are going to be cottaging lots of tiles.

KaleLambiek said:
- Dur K
Why work a merchant there? Why not the copper mine??

Will check this as well.

KaleLambiek said:
- JH
Christo... when do we need it?? Not for a while yet I think??
Suggest we swap the Engineer for a scientist (for 1 turn) and non-build the Heroic epic 1 turn
Then re-hire the engineer and non-build National Epic one turn.
Trooper > Trooper
R&R ?

Really like the non-builds of HE and NE -- we will need the cash. If we do non-build the HE, though, it should be now. Sleeps should build it ASAP to boost unit production.

KaleLambiek said:
- Sleeps
After growing a pop and working a preserve at 37 base hammers/turn +125% = 83 hammers per turn... NE at 167 is a perfect 2 turn non-build.
Trooper > Dump overflow to Eifel or Trooper or something
NE 2 turns (non-build!)
HE

I like the NE non-build, can do that for 1 turn while JH puts a turn into HE. Then swap to HE. We should not put any hammers into units until the HE is built.

KaleLambiek said:
Edit:
I suggest we sell our Maps around for 250 gold all together...

Sounds good -- more cash to fuel our research.

KaleLambiek · May 16, 2009

KaleLambiek said:
1155 at turn 113
1130 at turn 118
1140 at turn 123 (discovery of Chemistry)

From the discovery of Corporation (131) we now need 1188 beakers per turn.
Given that we are effectively not going to be researching a space tech the next three turns... Taking into account we only start that again on turn 135.... We need 1267 beakers per turn. While during our GA we are getting .. 1235 beakers per turn
With 3 changes:
1) GE in CiB fired and send to work the Windmill
2) Fired Scientist in FH to work the windmill
3) +2 Merchants in LM

1237 beakers per turn... The cottages should drive this up considerably

and with our last 18 - 27 turns in GA things look promissing

ChrisFromLux · May 16, 2009

KaleLambiek said:
Except no screenies

Well, what screenies would I have taken. Some of Babylonian lands, where Hammurabi shuffled his units around like mad to keep up with our dropping Troopers

Would not have been very interesting, as he always had a lot of troops in his city (where 'a lot' is more than the few Troopers we had).

Nothing else was worth showing, and in the final save, everybody can take a look at the situation on the front, revealed by our attacking Airships ...

KaleLambiek said:
I like keeping him for the Gorge, Instant power OK Not quite instant but much quicker anyways.
Cristo we will not use for a while anyway...

True, keeping him for the Gorge sounds good; as we got the Taj Mahal and its Golden Age, we can swap to Emancipation for free. We only need Cristo when we switch to Free Speech and Universal Suffrage, which is some turns away.

KaleLambiek said:
1 would have been enough, or were two so damaged that they both needed to heal??

No, the 2nd Trooper was only a bit damaged, but the only other defender was the XBow. The Mace was still 1 turn away. And I wanted to make sure we would not lose the city. There were a few units roaming around, and if they would all have attacked, 1 injured Trooper would have had problems. Of course, in the end, he retreated them all to his cities :mischief:

KaleLambiek said:
I think I will take the 2 xp...

Seems like the 3 of us agree ... and it's the obvious choice, IMHO. But as we got him 1 turn before handing off the save (+1 turn for traveling), I decided to hold on and get the team's opinion.

KaleLambiek said:
Is this right? Maintenance +3 total cost +1 ??? Strange...

Yes, it is right, and it is strange. It's a size-1-city quite close to our capital, but still ... :confused:

KaleLambiek said:
Needs to work that Windmilled hill.

Which got finally freed up by the conquest of Opis ... the city starved over my whole turnset

KaleLambiek said:
You are building a trooper here without a barracks... We dont need troopers that bad, beakers/gold we want from SdL. Perhaps we can build some (3 or 4) Zeppelins in SdL to help with the second-stack-to-be-formed. 9 Troopers now, + 3 or so makes a nice 12 = 2 stacks post Babylon?

Yes, I did. The barracks (for 1 promotion) is not needed, but the extra Trooper could be useful as Hammi still has some troops. Although their number diminishes finally ...

But gold sounds good as well!

KaleLambiek said:
Why not a temple?? Now we finish the Forge first I think? Then temple

Hmmm, wasn't in the plan?!

KaleLambiek said:
Dur K
Why work a merchant there? Why not the copper mine??

Because that tile also got freed up this turn by the fall of Dur-K

haphazard1 said:
Why have we not gotten a WB for those already?

Hmmm, wasn't that planned in JH's turnset already. I didn't even check them :blush:

haphazard1 said:
The HE has been unlocked; it will only take 2 turns in Sleeps, so I think we build it immediately and then keep cranking out paratroopers.

... after 1 turn of non-build in JH, maybe?!

haphazard1 said:
What is our tech path after Printing Press and Democracy?

Beeline Assembly Line, for factories?

ChrisFromLux · May 16, 2009

haphazard1 said:
That does sound weird. The +3 city cost I can believe, since it is size 1 and not too far from our capital.

Yes, it does. What is weird as well is that I wanted to take another look at the auto-save, but it's gone. I have the auto-saves for every turn, except the last one :confused:

Possible explanations for this strange +1 total expenses though:
215 :gold:

was at the beginning of the turn, 216 :gold:

is at the end of the turn. In between, we changed civics and some (1?) attacking units entered our borders in Opis.

haphazard1 · May 16, 2009

OK, here is version 1.0 of my turnset plan. I aim to play either 7 or 8 turns -- enough time to capture Babylon and 1 additional city. (Unless we have enough paras for 2 stacks after Babylon, then 2 additional cities. :satan:

)

Major objectives

- Continue conquest of Hammi, taking Babylon and some other city (Akkad?)
- Convert to Emancipation on last turn of golden age, converting to cottages at JH at same time.

Great People

- GG in Sleeps is settled as an instructor for +2 XP, +3 bpt under Rep
- GE in JH is saved for Three Gorges
- Our next GP is due from JH in 5 turns, with the following odds:

Prophet 60% (to be saved for a later golden age)
Scientist 15% (to be settled in JH for beakers)
Engineer 25% (to be saved for a later golden age, or used for Cristo?)

Research

- Printing Press (1 turn)
- Democracy (2 turns)
- Steam Power (3 turns, with a good bit of overflow)
- Assembly Line (3 turns, using the overflow from Steam Power)

Diplomacy

- Continue conquest of Hammi - show no mercy! :ar15:

- Continue snubbing WK
- Agree to pretty much any non-WK demand except Radio, changing civics, changing religion

Military

Next target is Babylon, combining all our available troopers to capture it quickly.

T0 - Paras in Sippar and Dur-Kur will heal this turn, while the paras who can still move at Opis move into the city. The 7/10 XP trooper at Opis will attack the lone cat NW of the city after it is bombed by a zep; no need to let it damage multiple units, and one para will have to stay behind at Opis anyway.

Other zeps aitstrike the pike and 2 cats NE of Babylon. The para in Sleeps airlifts to Dur-Kur.

T1 - Fly one zep on recon between Babylon and Borsippa. If there are no Babylonian units which can reach Sippar, we drop the 2 paras from Sippar and the 3 from Dur-Kur next to Babylon, covering the two forest tiles 1S and 1S1E from the city. Other zeps aitstrike the units outside cities.

Depending on what the pike and 2 cats NE of Babylon do, either 2 or 3 or the available paras from Opis also drop next to Babylon, leaving the cat-killer to move into Opis and garrison the city (maybe with 1 other, if the city is threatened).

T2 - 7 or 8 paras attack Babylon, with air support. Unless Hammi moves units out of the city, it does not fall this turn.

T3 - Babylon falls.

T4 - Paras consolidate in Babylon.

T5 - Paras drop against whichever remaining Babylonian city is least defended. If we have enough paras (unlikely, unless cities have 3 or fewer defenders), we could form 2 stacks. But more likely just one stack.

T6 and later - continue taking cities, depending on Hammi's movements.

Other units: galleon in BT moves to starve Atlantis, smashes galleys if they come out. Western galleon...not sure what to do with this guy?

Sheila (spare phalanx in SdL) moves to garrison Opis.

Cities

JH - Put 1 turn of hammers into the HE, then 1 turn into the NE, then 1 turn into Eiffel. Then Democracy will be finished, start the SoL.
LM - Assign three more merchants (two coastal tiles + lake tile), starving the city during the golden age for more GPP (and cash). Finish grocer (2 turns), then start bank.
Sleeps - Put 1 turn (with overflow) into NE as non-build cash. Then build HE (2 turns), then paras.
CiB - fire engineer to work the windmill. Finish NP (6 turns), then start NE.
SdL - Put 2 turns into Versailles as non-build gold, then 1 turn into NE. Then more non-build Versailles (do not finish it!), then put non-build hammers into Eiffel. Basically just store gold for the future. (Alternate: build barracks (1 turns), then paras to help the war effort.) Watch happiness, and build an odeon if needed. We only have 1 theater, so Globe is a ways off, if ever.
IT - Finish lab (2 turns), then build WB (1 turn) for the whales. Then put 2 turns non-build hammers into NE. Put 1 turn into Eiffel, then put non-build into Versailles.
BT - Finish forge (2 turns), then Confu temple (2 turns). Put 1 turn into Odeon, then 1 turn into NE, then finish Odeon. Start courthouse.
TR - Finish Confu temple (1 turn), build courthouse (4 turns). Build odeon (2 turns), then library (2 turns).
FH - Fire one scientist to work windmill. Finish lighthouse (2 turns), then build granary (6 turns). Start courthouse.
GV - Build theater (1 turn) to get citizen working again, then finish courthouse (1 turn). Then build odeon (2 turns). Start library.
Dur-Kur - Fire merchant to work copper mine. Finish granary (3 turns), then start forge. (Or maybe Confu temple before forge?)
Sippar - In revolt (4 turns). Then build lighthouse, running at least 1 artist to get an immediate border pop. Any pop which can not work useful tiles, run merchants. After lighthouse, build forge.
Opis - In revolt (3 turns). Then build forge.

Cash Control

- Trade our map around to scoop up all non-WK cash available.
- Non-build the HE:
T0 - 1 turn in JH
T1 - build for real in Sleeps
- Non-build the NE:
T0 - Sleeps
T1 - JH
T2 - SdL
T3-4 - IT
T5 - BT
T6 - build for real in CiB
- Non-build Versailles:
T0-1 - SdL
T2 - none
T3-5 - SdL (do not finish it!)
T6-7 - IT
- Non-build Eiffel:
T2 - JH
T5 - IT
T6-7 - SdL

- Keep eye on trade screens for tech sales (if we can get 100+ gold) and resource deals.

Workers

Thorrez (by TR) - move 2N to desert hill and windmill. Then move 3E1S to forested grass hill and windmill.
DeLorean - watermill current tile, then move to the pig hill and road. (Several AIs would love to trade for another pig.) Then move to jungle tile and cottage.
Drunken Sot (new name for worker 1S of GV) - finish cottage on current tile, then move to cottage plains NW of GV.
Jules Verne (by Sleeps) - finish farm, then another farm 1E.
Ursus (new name for worker 1N of BT) - finish cottage, then move 1W and cottage.
Obama (by CiB) - continues preserving the forests for NP.
Ham-handed (new name for captured worker in Opis) - move to marble (1 turn), move to forest 1N of CiB, then preserves. Just too dangerous around Opis right now.
Greenie (new name for worker by IT) - finish cottage, then move to chop forests outside IT fat cross. (Or could head to mainland for other tasks?)
All workers around JH - finish pre-cottaging, then mass-convert tiles to cottages as we revolt to Emancipation. Then send some to assist in preserving CiB, rest south to help around BT, Sleeps, GV, TR, FH.

Civics and Religion

Plan to revolt to Emancipation on last turn of golden age. No religious changes expected.

Stopping Conditions

- Any really ugly surprises in war with Hammi which make current objectives impossible
- Being declared upon by anybody

Depending on comments and agreement from the team, I will aim to play sometime on Monday (about 48 hours from now). Let's hear your thoughts and suggestions -- I am sure there are improvements which can be made to the plan.

KaleLambiek · May 17, 2009

ChrisFromLux said:
Hmmm, wasn't in the plan?!

I think I remember something about me saying lets insert a Temple, but yes, your plan hasnt got a temple... Yet it seems obvious a temple is smart?

ChrisFromLux said:
Because that tile also got freed up this turn by the fall of Dur-K

Opis you mean

Seems logical... But lets work that copper mine

ChrisFromLux said:
Hmmm, wasn't that planned in JH's turnset already. I didn't even check them

Because up to now we havent really needed them I think... Even now we only have 1 unhappy citizen that can be cured by a quick temple/Odeon.
On the other hand we are getting closer to the caps... the WB now after the Lab would probably be right timing (JIT)

ChrisFromLux said:
Beeline Assembly Line, for factories?

Beeline Industrialism for TANKS

KaleLambiek · May 17, 2009

LOL I hadnt even noticed we crossposted untill I read Chris' reply... think WTF is he on about???

haphazard1 said:
- We are starting to get WW. Grapeville has become unhappy (1 citizen), and Bear Town and Sushi deLuxe only have 1 spare happy. We are going to need more happiness real soon now...like those whales. Why have we not gotten a WB for those already?

Because we havent really needed it... Now is about the right time (after the lab?)

haphazard1 said:
The HE has been unlocked; it will only take 2 turns in Sleeps, so I think we build it immediately and then keep cranking out paratroopers.

As per my earlier suggestion, I think we get the 120+ gold we can in JH

haphazard1 said:
If we do want to conquer Joao, we should probably do so immediately after Hammi.

That is a given... Good thing is nothing upgrades to troopers, they do to riffles, but not to troopers. And with tanks on the Horizon vs Riffles its still fun and fast.
In particular since Tanks get CR

haphazard1 said:
- Music is available from Hammi, and is also known by HC (but not willing to trade, since we have gone to Rep). I do not think Music is valuable to us, certainly not enough to make a peace deal and delay finishing Hammi by 10 turns.

I agree, our citizens will launch to space without the bliss of music

haphazard1 said:
- GG currently in Sleeps: I think we settle him there as an instructor for the +2 XP and get 5 XP units from our HE city. This should be far more valuable than a super-medic or super-attacker, and also more valuable than a military academy (not that we can build one right now anyway).

I love the smell of a sparkling new CR2 Tanks in the morning

haphazard1 said:
- GE currently in JH: I assume we use him for the Cristo (this turn)? What to do then in JH? Build R&R, about 7 turns or so? The happiness would be nice, boosting our odeons as well. Put turns into Eiffel? Although maybe we hold off on that so we can get some good non-building hammers into it. Just build more paras to accelerate the war effort?

I think we build some non-builds in JH (HE/NE) for some gold. Then 2 or so troopers, maybe 3 to replace an additional loss....
Then start working on R&R and Cristo as well as Levee/factory/Plant offcourse when they become available... And dont forget about SoL

And a Theatre to (help) unlock GT as well as cover the Happy problems we will face from chopping the preserves and an Odeon

haphazard1 said:
- Our next GP should come from JH in 5 turns. Current odds:

Prophet 60%
Scientist 15%
Engineer 25%

Prophet gets saved for golden age fodder, presumably? Not sure on the others; engineer maybe for Three Gorges?

Only a scientist I would consider settling, the other two... GP = GA.
GE...

haphazard1 said:
- What is our tech path after Printing Press and Democracy? Steam Power for faster workers, coal, and levees looks pretty good. Plus it opens up Assembly Line for factories and power. Steel for cannon and Iron Works? Also opens Railroad, but that requires Steam Power as well.

Our workers are busy doing more important things than railroads. We also have Airports which are better than rails to help move (new) troops.
And troopers can city hop using their drop facility... moving up to 6 tiles vs the rail 10.
Dont think we quite need IW available yet, lets get factories first... possibly even tanks first... Then worry about Steel>Railroad.

haphazard1 said:
- Good progress on getting JH ready for the big Emancipation conversion. When we do start finishing those cottages, what do we want to put all the chop hammers into? R&R? Paras? Other?

What ever JH is building at the time? R&R and Cristo seem good candidates, R&R in particular or SoL, dont forget SoL...

KaleLambiek · May 17, 2009

haphazard1 said:
Will definitely try to squeeze in extra specialists wherever possible during the GA. Or will it only help in selected cities?

Selected cities only... Look at the spreadsheet it goes up FAST.
One thing I seem to have left out of the spreadsheet (I just thought of) is SoL for +1 Specialists in all cities concerned... Not that it will matter THAT much I think... yet back to the drawing board to see just exactly what effect SoL will or will not have...

haphazard1 said:
We could add a barracks here easily enough, if we want to. Depends if we want JH to build some more troops, or spend its time on wonders. Although Sleeps with HE will be turning out paras pretty rapidly.

Yes we can, but do we want/need to Depends ofcourse on how many units we are going to build there... For now though I think SdL has more important goals, among which but not exclusively and in no particular order....
- Non-builds
Versailles, Eifel, NE, maybe SoL for 1 or 2 turns depending on timing.
- Infra
Factory/Plant, Harbor, Airport

haphazard1 said:
City is losing production due to unhappiness -- should shift from grass farms for more hammers, at least until we get more happiness here. As for the grass cottage -- we are going to be cottaging lots of tiles.

LOL Hadnt even considered that... Moving from 2 grass farms to 2 plains forest, changing 3 food for 3 hammers. :goodjob:

haphazard1 said:
I like the NE non-build, can do that for 1 turn while JH puts a turn into HE. Then swap to HE. We should not put any hammers into units until the HE is built.

Well.... The one trooper I build in the queue is to make the total of 12 after that we have 12 troopers and can make 2 stacks... Then we can make some Zeppelins or do some non-building in Sleeps as well untill we can/need to start HE for Tank building (16/17 turns away).

Also getting a Barracks in SdL might enable it to non-build HE as well. Then adds to flexibility with building tanks.

KaleLambiek · May 17, 2009

haphazard1 said:
Research
- Printing Press (1 turn)
- Democracy (2 turns)
- Steam Power (3 turns, with a good bit of overflow)
- Assembly Line (3 turns, using the overflow from Steam Power)

Take note we are in GA, we will lose a lot of beakers once out of GA.
These techs total are 12619 beakers.
During the 6 turn GA we get 6 * 1235 = 7410 beakers
Leaving 5209 / ~850 beakers per turn = 6.12 turns

For a total of 12.12 turns to Assembly line.

3 turns to the start of SoL... sending the chops here seems smart

So we have to find 'something' to do for 3 turns then start SoL
HE > NE > Trooper (2 turn with some overflow) > SoL??

haphazard1 said:
T1 - Fly one zep on recon between Babylon and Borsippa.

Perhaps the mountain just east of Sippar is a good target to ensure the full Line of sight...

haphazard1 said:
Other units: galleon in BT moves to starve Atlantis, smashes galleys if they come out. Western galleon...not sure what to do with this guy?

Draw some Zeppelin fire keep alive and ready to transport our GM from LM.

haphazard1 said:
JH - Put 1 turn of hammers into the HE, then 1 turn into the NE, then 1 turn into Eiffel. Then Democracy will be finished, start the SoL.

You need to MM this to make sure you dont finish HE. Also perhaps build a trooper in 2 turns HE>NE>Trooper>SoL. Delays SoL 0.5 turns, may or may not be consequential.

SoL is 1005 hammers, at 134 hammers per turn...

Strike that... we need happyness to cover the chopping...
HE > NE > Odeon (1 turn + overflow) > SoL

With 8 chops for 160 raw hammers * 2.75 = 440 hammers. Leaving 1005 - 440 = 565
565 / 134 = 4.21 turns... With the overflow from Odeon in just 4 turns

What to build after SoL?

haphazard1 said:
LM - Assign three more merchants (two coastal tiles + lake tile), starving the city during the golden age for more GPP (and cash). Finish grocer (2 turns), then start bank.

Why 7 total Merchants? OK... looking at the spreadsheet, pulling forward the GP from LM some turns = a good thing in particular with the upcomming polution of SoL...

haphazard1 said:
Sleeps - Put 1 turn (with overflow) into NE as non-build cash. Then build HE (2 turns), then paras.

Lets try and level Para's at 12 or so...

haphazard1 said:
SdL - Put 2 turns into Versailles as non-build gold, then 1 turn into NE. Then more non-build Versailles (do not finish it!), then put non-build hammers into Eiffel. Basically just store gold for the future. (Alternate: build barracks (1 turns), then paras to help the war effort.) Watch happiness, and build an odeon if needed. We only have 1 theater, so Globe is a ways off, if ever.

We need other infra too... if only to max out possible beakers even if SdL is to be geared to production... Harbor > Airport or so... Getting more beakers now vs more gold later? Hard choice...

haphazard1 said:
IT - Finish lab (2 turns), then build WB (1 turn) for the whales. Then put 2 turns non-build hammers into NE. Put 1 turn into Eiffel, then put non-build into Versailles.

Again... Commerce... we do want more beakers
Airport > Harbor?

haphazard1 said:
BT - Finish forge (2 turns), then Confu temple (2 turns). Put 1 turn into Odeon, then 1 turn into NE, then finish Odeon. Start courthouse.

You seem to have thought this thru to the detail.. LOL 1 turn into NE...

haphazard1 said:
TR - Finish Confu temple (1 turn), build courthouse (4 turns). Build odeon (2 turns), then library (2 turns).

How about theatres instead of Odeon's in TR and BT? Enabling GT?

haphazard1 said:
GV - Build theater (1 turn) to get citizen working again, then finish courthouse (1 turn). Then build odeon (2 turns). Start library.

And work hammers over food....

haphazard1 said:
Dur-Kur - Fire merchant to work copper mine. Finish granary (3 turns), then start forge. (Or maybe Confu temple before forge?)

Temple > Forge I think... Temple is cheaper, get same hammers... Or atleast out of GA.

Also we can use the happy there

haphazard1 said:
Sippar - In revolt (4 turns). Then build lighthouse, running at least 1 artist to get an immediate border pop. Any pop which can not work useful tiles, run merchants. After lighthouse, build forge.

If we cannot support the population with the food in Sippar, run 1 or 2 turns all merchants... I dont care about the border pop if we cannot support the pop anyway...

Once babylon is gone (hopefully in time), I count 13 food for pop 7 => Will starve anyways... Just run 8 and 7 Merchants to get the pop in 2 turns and starve to sustainable food at size 6.

haphazard1 said:
Cash Control

- Trade our map around to scoop up all non-WK cash available.
- Non-build the HE:
T0 - 1 turn in JH
T1 - build for real in Sleeps
- Non-build the NE:
T0 - Sleeps
T1 - JH
T2 - SdL
T3-4 - IT
T5 - BT
T6 - build for real in CiB
- Non-build Versailles:
T0-1 - SdL
T2 - none
T3-5 - SdL (do not finish it!)
T6-7 - IT
- Non-build Eiffel:
T2 - JH
T5 - IT
T6-7 - SdL

Good addition to the plan... Non-building Eifel though is low priority. And Eifel will be build in JH. Perhaps non-build Versailles instead of Eifel in JH?
Also Airport and Harbor are important...

haphazard1 said:
Workers

Thorrez (by TR) - move 2N to desert hill and windmill. Then move 3E1S to forested grass hill and windmill.

Why not windmill the Grass jungle hill? (1 west) then 1N Windmill Plains hill??
Dont see a priority for Milling the Desert hill??

haphazard1 said:
DeLorean - watermill current tile, then move to the pig hill and road. (Several AIs would love to trade for another pig.) Then move to jungle tile and cottage.

The pig is the only pig we have... It is connected via the river, no road needed on the pig!

haphazard1 said:
Drunken Sot (new name for worker 1S of GV) - finish cottage on current tile, then move to cottage plains NW of GV.

NNW I think?

haphazard1 said:
Jules Verne (by Sleeps) - finish farm, then another farm 1E.

I count that farm to be the last... Did I count the food right? Then again we will want to replace the Tundra hill, so maybe one more farm due east. Then we want preserves (for now) on the western forests to hope for further forest spread and preserves west of the BFC to help spread. Then Lumbermill the forests ultimatly.

haphazard1 said:
Ursus (new name for worker 1N of BT) - finish cottage, then move 1W and cottage.
Obama (by CiB) - continues preserving the forests for NP.

We need some help for Obama, he is to slow (sounds familiar??)

haphazard1 said:
Ham-handed (new name for captured worker in Opis) - move to marble (1 turn), move to forest 1N of CiB, then preserves. Just too dangerous around Opis right now.
Greenie (new name for worker by IT) - finish cottage, then move to chop forests outside IT fat cross. (Or could head to mainland for other tasks?)

Chopping sounds good.

haphazard1 said:
All workers around JH - finish pre-cottaging, then mass-convert tiles to cottages as we revolt to Emancipation. Then send some to assist in preserving CiB, rest south to help around BT, Sleeps, GV, TR, FH.

Yes... sounds good...

Sleepless · May 17, 2009

Finally managed to catch up on the saves

.

on the turnset Chrisfrom Lux.

Some thoughts.

We certainly need some more troops. If and that is a big if we don't get any more losses 3 or 4 would probably be enough. This is where I differ from everybody else. I would make the para in Sleep's a woodie 3 c1 medic. We need to get our troops back to optimal health asap. We can also let Ham suicide some troops against him as I doubt he would take much damage in the woods.

If we do this remember to move the warrior out first though as the xp would be shared. Depending on odds etc we might be able to get anouther GG out of this war for settling anyway.

Tanks. Remember we won't have tanks until plastics. The only oil is offshore of IT and we need plastics for the rig.

WK. Is there any reason we shouldn't trade with him now? The +4 you traded with our worse enemy would be negated by +4 fair trade. Are we going to get any more techs from the AI. Imho this is very unlikely so I would grab his incense now.

The GE I would prefer to use on the Cristo but if we keep him for the 3 gorges thats ok as well. The tech path should be heading towards plastics next anyway.

The cottage chops should go into the SoL in JH especially as we are running rep. Any reason why we won't stay in rep most of the remainder of the game?

I was a bit worried about the AI going into merc but with enviro available hopefully they will stay in that.

Other than that the turnset plan seems good haphazard1.

KaleLambiek · May 17, 2009

Oil is in Portugal :evil:

No rep all game
Because with lots of cottages comming up having Free Speech/Uni suff is going to be so much better than rep.

I disagree with the super healer due to the Airships... They negate the healing effect. We just need to get the troopers up to 80% better they are never going to get due to the Airships.

ChrisFromLux · May 17, 2009

Sleepless said:
This is where I differ from everybody else. I would make the para in Sleep's a woodie 3 c1 medic.

KaleLambiek said:
I disagree with the super healer due to the Airships... They negate the healing effect. We just need to get the troopers up to 80% better they are never going to get due to the Airships.

I am with Kale here. We don't need a Woodie3; Troopers in a forest are too strong for Hammi's units anyway.

If we use the General on a unit, it should be for a Super-Medic, to heal most injuries in 1 turn, even in enemy territory. But settling in SS with 5XP out of the box for every HE-unit we build is certainly the better choice!

Sleepless said:
The GE I would prefer to use on the Cristo but if we keep him for the 3 gorges thats ok as well.

We don't need the Cristo anytime soon. We can switch to Emancipation for free during this Golden Age, and the next civic's-change is still some turns away. More than enough time to build it manually; having instant/quicker Power in all cities is more important, for more cash, beakers, or whatever ...

Sleepless said:
Other than that the turnset plan seems good haphazard1.

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