Is anyone else appalled by the Eurocentrism in Civ?

[Reginleif]

I love history and I love civilization too, but in preveous renditions I was always upset about thee emphasis on European states at the expense of other playable fractions. Over the years civilization has grown to become more inclusive of other histories and I was hopeful that this theme would continue, but after extensive review of the information currently available, I fear this has not taken place.
My primary reason for this conclusion are the Art Deco buttons the designers will be forever remembered in the archives of gaming. In every unit and tech button I have seen with a person they are clearly Caucasian, or if no skin colour is visible, they are put in the European context anyway (Longswordsman). Perhaps all the icons we have seen are for Europeans , but there is still more.
All the civilizations that have two units are European, while many of the other non-traditional civs have one poorly named unit (Siam), a poorly named building (Songhai), or a generic unit (India). This is common throughout the civilization series, where familiar European civs get the specific units, while unknown areas get bland, generic units. (After reading more about Mali military structures and society I am enraged over how they were treated in Civ IV). Japan may be an exception, but with decades of culture diffusion between the West and Japan, the samurai and Japanese aviation during WWII have become part of the mythos of the West. Also, all the known city-states are Western or were at one point, which is a shame because I expected Swahili, and Polynesian cultures to be represented.
My finale point is more of a counter-point and that is although I know the game is not out, the overall aura of this game has been dripping of Eurocentrism. Civ 5 may not be as bad as Civ 4 , 3 etc, in civilization selection, such as choosing Siam, Songhai, Iroquois over Spain, Dutch (although Greece should have been purged too), I still expected better.
I do not like to live in an echo chamber so I would like to here your responses to my claims.

 

[AriochIV]

Civilization is a game made by American developers for a largely Western audience. If you are expecting a world history lesson, I think you are going to be dissapointed.

I definitely hope that there will a lot of regional variety in the "regular" units, and there are some indicators of this: the European Settler unit has a mule, and the New World version has a llama. Art assets tend to be the last things finalized, so we probably won't know more about this until we see the game.

They have said that the music will now be regionalized, so if you're playing Japan or Arabia, you'll no longer hear Christian chants during the medieval period.

As for the Art Deco UI and the Western-themed icons, I think it may be asking a bit much to expect that they're going to build a completely different UI for each culture.

 

[trezno]

Civ is about developing your empire from 4,000 BC, so I really don't get your point. Should there be less European civs? It would be very appaling trying to play a game founded on history without the civs that have made a big impact on history. Maybe make a mod called fantasy Civilization instead??

I will use Spain as an example (and Portugal). These two nations have had an tremendous impact on culture and history in the Southern America. You want to remove Greece? Think of what the world would be like without the 200's of philosophers, mathematicians, etc. from Greece.

Or even the Vikings, plundered England, Ireland, northern France. They even went to America (Wineland) via Greenland long before Columbus!

 

[cardgame]

yeah... Europeans did stuff, and stuff.

 

[Niptium]

I'm pretty much appalled by how un-Eurocentric this iteration of Civ is. Comon, there are too much Civs from Asia and North America. The Iroquois were pretty much stuck in prehistoric times, having only the knowledge of agriculture and not anything close to metal casting or the knowledge of writing. I also don't really like the inclusion of Siam.

It should have been more Eurocentric, with the Spaniards and the Dutch taking place of these two.

 

[Ahriman]

Also, all the known city-states are Western or were at one point

Most of the world is "western or were at one point" if you include colonial entities.

Singapore is in the game for example, but its weird to exclude that because it was European at one point.

Similarly, Buenos Aires is in.

Including Polynesian things would be weird; tiny population, no impact on history.

Zanzibar would make a very logical city state, I'd be surprised if that weren't in. Similarly Aden or Oman.

 

[Rusty Edge]

Civilization is a game made by American developers for a largely Western audience. If you are expecting a world history lesson, I think you are going to be dissapointed.

I think that sumarizes it well enough.

On the bright side, the leaders will be speaking their own languages. The game is modable, so dedicated groups could theoretically bring the game up to the OP's standard.

To get Firaxis interested in hiring consultants and native speaking artists and programmers, for greater authenticity- it's a matter of retail sales figures - if the market ( not black market ) is large enough, they will accomodate and cater to it.

 

[Le Sage]

Naah. The problem isn't with the game. The problem is that it's so hard to find great civilizations anywhere else in the world. So go out and start creating some great cultures and civilizations and then you'll be in the game too! Old Europe will be more than pleased to share the weight of pulling World History.

 

[YoHo]

Iroquois might be better replaced by Anasazi.
Really though I see no problem with their inclusion.

The game is currently going to have an install of 9gigs. How much bigger an install are you willing to have to accommodate more artwork?

 

[dra]

What I really dislike is that tech tree is kinda Europocentric. You develop technologies in order European civilizations did. Chinese developed gunpowder and paper while most of European land was still untoutched by agriculture. They had huge almost unsinkabale ships and developed ways to measure latitude and longitude, circumnavigated the globe and charted all major lands decades before Portugese copied Arabic ships in order to create caravel. There is no way you can achieve that in civ series :/. I would love several alternative tech routes.

 

[Camikaze]

I am not appalled that a company designed a product in a way that appeals more to their target audience.

And that's not saying that the target audience is ignorant and/or stupid, just that people from the US, UK and Canada are more likely to be exposed throughout their lives to European history and culture. It's not a travesty that they should design the game to fit in with what people feel familiar with.

 

[Calouste]

What I really dislike is that tech tree is kinda Europocentric. You develop technologies in order European civilizations did. Chinese developed gunpowder and paper while most of European land was still untoutched by agriculture. They had huge almost unsinkabale ships and developed ways to measure latitude and longitude, circumnavigated the globe and charted all major lands decades before Portugese copied Arabic ships in order to create caravel. There is no way you can achieve that in civ series :/. I would love several alternative tech routes.

You can achieve that, you just need a higher science output in China (which they had during a certain part of their history). It's not like they magically conjured up early firearms without having knowledge of metal casting.

In any case, there are some pretty deep beelines possible in Civ5. Astronomy for example only needs 9 preceding techs.

 

[Aramel]

I'm not sure I'd agree with you that Greece should be out, but I think you're right when you say that Civilization can be pretty Eurocentric at times. I don't think we really needed the Holy Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire, and the Celts, for example, when the game already had Germany, Rome, and France (and yes I know they are not perfectly analogous, but we never got that kind of specificity for Asia, you know).

Also, it is kind of silly how just about every second-rate European power seems to get it's own city state, with hardly anything from anywhere else. I know Shafer did his thesis on that kind of stuff, but come on, mix it up a bit. It doesn't have to be Polynesian, but someplace from Africa or someplace else from South America besides Rio de Janeiro would be nice. At this rate it's looking like there are going to be twice as many European city-states as all the other continents combined.

 

[cccv]

..

Is anyone else appalled by the Eurocentrism in Civ?

No.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I am not "appalled". The overrepresentation of european civs always bothered me, but it got better with Civ 4 and especially with BtS when they added Ethiopia and Khmer.
Civ 5 is a step backward in this regard but I'm sure there'll be a lot of non-european civs coming in expansion packs.

 

[Ahriman]

Chinese developed gunpowder and paper while most of European land was still untoutched by agriculture. They had huge almost unsinkabale ships and developed ways to measure latitude and longitude, circumnavigated the globe and charted all major lands decades before Portugese copied Arabic ships in order to create caravel

Umm... what? Is this really what they're teaching in Chinese schools?
Earliest gunpowder references are ~9th century AD. Europe is hardly untouched wilderness by that point.

Please show historic evidence for Chinese explorers circumnavigating the globe before western countries, and mapping out the Americas, or western Africa.

Zheng He was the premier Chinese explorer and his fleets did a lot around south asia and SE asia, but never did anything like circumnavigation - and that was in early 15th century, around the same time that Europeans were developing caravels.

China's map 1402 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KangnidoMap.jpg

[Note, I totally agree with the fact that China was technologically ahead of Europe until the 15th century - which is totally possible in-game.]
*edit* 15th, 14th was typo

 

[SeptimusOctopus]

Following up Ahriman's points.
Read this review: http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/1421.HTM

You don't have to pretend the Chinese performed extraordinary feats of exploration to give the point that they were more technologically advanced than Europe in the 15th Century.

However, I agree that a much more non-linear tech tree would be awesome, if it works within the confines of the game.

 

[Dark_Jedi06]

I don't believe we have a complete list of city-states, so your claim about them all being Euro/Western centric seems premature.

 

[YoHo]

Its not as if Civ hasn't traditionally had a somewhat non-linear tech tree.

I mean, there is more than 1 way to go through the list of technologies and very few of the dependencies in that tree are obtuse.

 

[Ergo Sum]

I do agree that Eurocentrism in the Civ games is vexing. But the argument that Civs that will appeal to target demographics will be included out of necessity are pretty valid. And the fact is, Europeans had a large impact on the world for the past ~200 years, but before that they weren't extraordinary, despite what some CFCers will tell you. The vast majority of human history has not revolved around Europe.

Comments like

Or even the Vikings, plundered England, Ireland, northern France. They even went to America (Wineland) via Greenland long before Columbus!

are pretty hilarious when you consider how small an area England, Ireland and northern France are in the grand scheme of things. Even civs like Rome are not so earth-shaking when you realize that the Roman empire only ever really encompassed European lands and bits of the Middle East. Germany has been put into Civ almost entirely by dint of its effect on Continental history, since its history outside Europe is quite limited. I welcome the inclusion of more neglected civs like Siam, Iroquois, Songhai and the Ottomans (it really shocked me that the Ottomans weren't in Civ4 Vanilla) and hope they add more of them in the future. Of course, I wouldn't mind at the same time more interesting European civs like Spain and Portugal. With any luck there will be "ethnically diverse" units in Civ 5 as well.