German multicultural society "has failed" -- Chancellor Merkel

[Traitorfish]

I, and many others, feel that this is the wrong way to define a German. That is the crux of the issue.

And how would one define "German", then?

Britain is so much easier. It really is just a bit of paper.

 

[Cheetah]

And how would one define "German", then?

Britain is so much easier. It really is just a bit of paper.

British: Either English, Welsh, Scottish or Northern-Irish (or possibly Irish too?).

Now, to define what a nationality is, is a bit more tricky. I am reminded when they tried to define what it means to be French recently, and the protests didn't end until the project was cancelled IIRC.

I don't have a very good definition myself either, but it is definitely more than a simple passport saying "Germany".

If it isn't, then what is the point with identifying anything or anyone by nation state?

 

[Traitorfish]

British: Either English, Welsh, Scottish or Northern-Irish (or possibly Irish too?).

Ah, but that would frame "British" as a mere geographical composite, which it isn't; it is (despite occasional cries to the contrary) a nationality in and of itself, and a civic one. The traditional components are indeed those native to the British Isles (although there are rather more than the four obvious ones!), but it's as easily compatible with any other ethnic background, from Jamaican to Punjabi to Chinese.

The problem is that most European states are neither fully ethnic nor fully civic nations, so there's a lot more room for debate about who is or is not a "true German". (Not that Britain doesn't have the same problems, it's just that the posing of Britain as an ethnic entity is altogether disingenuous, and largely relies on the conflation of Britain and England, and so more easily rejected.)

 

[Lone Wolf]

If I live in Britain, have the status of a UK citizen, but hate Britain and fly into a rage when anyone refers to me as "British", "English", etc., and insist only to be called Superior Russian Entity, am I "British"?

 

[Traitorfish]

If I live in Britain, have the status of a UK citizen, but hate Britain and fly into a rage when anyone refers to me as "British", "English", etc., and insist only to be called Superior Russian Entity, am I "British"?

Well, that depends. It may be a reasonable concern, it may be you with your head up your arse.

 

[ParkCungHee]

And how would one define "German", then?

Britain is so much easier. It really is just a bit of paper.

Britain has gotten far more restrictive about that piece of paper though. Time was you didn't even have to ask for it. Heck you didn't even have to want it. They'd fight through an army to make sure you got that piece of paper.

 

[luiz]

The key post on this thread was Arwon's Australian article. We need to realize that a multi-cultural society is not the same as a multi-ethnical one. The US for instance is definetely multi-ethnical, but it's not multi-cultural (though I'd call the Southwest Bi-Cultural). There's nothing wrong with a multi-ethnical society, it can and does function just fine in several nations. Multi-culturalism (that is, treating people differently based on their ethnic group; encouraging each ethnic group to live together in clusters and so on) is a bankrupt concept.

 

[Xanikk999]

(though I'd call the Southwest Bi-Cultural)

Why do you say that? There are at least 4 major groups that i know of that live in the southwest: asians, latinos, blacks and whites. Theres probably some other groups that i left out as well.

 

[Bill3000]

If it isn't, then what is the point with identifying anything or anyone by nation state?

There isn't. The nation state is a crappy obsolete concept. Liberal statehood is fundamentally superior.

 

[luiz]

Why do you say that? There are at least 4 major groups that i know of that live in the southwest: asians, latinos, blacks and whites. Theres probably some other groups that i left out as well.

Ethnic group <> cultural group. In the American Southwest there are two major cultural groups, the "mainstream american" one and the "latino" one. Note that many latinos are part of the mainstream american culture group. Also note that there are other culture groups which are neither mainstream american nor latino, like some chinese clusters, but those are not major.

The fact is that the Southwest USA has two de facto official languages: English and Spanish. While I am sure there are plenty of neighborhoods and towns where people speak chinese or farsi or whatever, the two big ones are those.

 

[Traitorfish]

I think an important point that hasn't really been touched on in this thread is the distinction between integration and assimilation. It is possible for multiple cultures (ethnic, religious or otherwise) to co-exist, both as collective entities and as subscribing individuals, without demanding segregation; that, if anything, is the lesson that America can teach us.

The fact is that the Southwest USA has two de facto official languages: English and Spanish. While I am sure there are plenty of neighborhoods and towns where people speak chinese or farsi or whatever, the two big ones are those.

I would suggest that the Chinese, Farsi, etc. neighbourhoods could be considered part of the greater "lattice" which is Mainstream American culture, rather than being "molecules" apart from it (that is, unfortunately, the best way I could think to describe this). It just seems to come down to a stark Anglo/Latino divide because the issue is most prominent in areas in which the "melting pot" tradition is not particularly well expressed by the American side.

 

[Dachs]

Britain has gotten far more restrictive about that piece of paper though. Time was you didn't even have to ask for it. Heck you didn't even have to want it. They'd fight through an army to make sure you got that piece of paper.

Ah, for the days of Don Pacifico and Dickweed Palmerston

oh, the memories

 

[Tee Kay]

Multi-culturalism (that is, treating people differently based on their ethnic group; encouraging each ethnic group to live together in clusters and so on) is a bankrupt concept.

That's not what multiculturalism is.

I think an important point that hasn't really been touched on in this thread is the distinction between integration and assimilation. It is possible for multiple cultures (ethnic, religious or otherwise) to co-exist, both as collective entities and as subscribing individuals, without demanding segregation; that, if anything, is the lesson that America can teach us.

This. You don't have to choose between the two extremes.

 

[luiz]

That's not what multiculturalism is.

Yes it is.

Or rather, that's the more appropriate meaning. In some countries it seems that multiculturalism has come to mean simply accepting people from different cultural backgrounds. But that's not really the meaning Merkel was using.

 

[warpus]

Multi-culturalism (that is, treating people differently based on their ethnic group; encouraging each ethnic group to live together in clusters and so on) is a bankrupt concept.

It seems to work well enough in Canada and parts of the U.S. (chinatown, anyone?)

 

[Tee Kay]

Yes it is. Or rather, that's the more appropriate meaning. In some countries it seems that multiculturalism has come to mean simply accepting people from different cultural backgrounds. But that's not really the meaning Merkel was using.

Why should I accept your definition of anything?

 

[Cutlass]

It seems to work well enough in Canada and parts of the U.S. (chinatown, anyone?)

USA #1. Canada #2

 

[Camikaze]

Multi-culturalism (that is, treating people differently based on their ethnic group; encouraging each ethnic group to live together in clusters and so on) is a bankrupt concept.

That's not what multiculturalism is.

Yes it is.

Or rather, that's the more appropriate meaning. In some countries it seems that multiculturalism has come to mean simply accepting people from different cultural backgrounds. But that's not really the meaning Merkel was using.

Multiculturalism doesn't call for the segregation of ethnic groups. It calls for differing cultural identities to coexist in the same community. That's a bit of difference.

 

[Traitorfish]

Yes it is.

Or rather, that's the more appropriate meaning. In some countries it seems that multiculturalism has come to mean simply accepting people from different cultural backgrounds. But that's not really the meaning Merkel was using.

Don't you think it's unwise to conflate a particular implementation (if that is indeed an accurate description of the German model) with the concept in itself? It's not as if there are plentiful examples of failed assimilationism.

 

[Arwon]

Multi-culturalism (that is, treating people differently based on their ethnic group; encouraging each ethnic group to live together in clusters and so on) is a bankrupt concept.

Um, no. It's a descriptive term, simply recognising the diverse reality of society.

As a policy, it means disavowing previous attempts to socially-engineer a monoculture, or simply ignore foreigners living in the country. Also it means this TV station, which is great.