SBS's becoming a bit of a letdown for me, to be honest. Especially the news and current affairs side of things. IMO, they've sacrificed a lot of the in-depth overseas news coverage for frankly substandard coverage of domestic politics.
German multicultural society "has failed" -- Chancellor Merkel
- Thread starter Babbler
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SBS's becoming a bit of a letdown for me, to be honest. Especially the news and current affairs side of things. IMO, they've sacrificed a lot of the in-depth overseas news coverage for frankly substandard coverage of domestic politics.
I don't think it works that great in Canada. I think Canada's ethnic policies are moronic and counterproductive. I think Canada works fine despite multiculturalism, not because of it. And of course Canada faces less problems with immigrants because they usually come from more affluent and educated backgrounds when compared to the average muslim immigrant to Europe.
The US is not multicultural. It does have some ethnic enclaves, as I mentioed, but on the whole it is firmly an assimilationist country.
Because your definition is useless.
Multiculturalism only has a meaning if you define it as the opposite of assimilation and integration. Multiculturalism is the notion that different ethnic groups should keep their different ethnic/cultural identities.
You can welcome people from the most diverse backgrounds and still be a critic of multiculturalism. If you want to define multiculturalism merely as "tolerance", there's no need for that word.
Different ethnic and cultural identities can only coexist for long if there is some degree of seggregation (I am not talking Warsaw Ghetto here). Obviously some groups will retain some typical traits for a couple of generations, but without seggregation they get necessarily watered down as time passes. Multiculturalism seeks to prevent that.
Don't you think it's unwise to conflate a particular implementation (if that is indeed an accurate description of the German model) with the concept in itself? It's not as if there are plentiful examples of failed assimilationism.
That's fair enough. My main point is that frequently people in countries such as the US or Australia will define multiculturalism as essentially another word for tolerance. I find that an useless definition.
Multiculturalism is as you implied the opposite of assimilationism. It can vary in itensity and scale, but it's fundamental idea is that ethnic/cultural identities should be kept separate.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
I think that interpretation relies on the notion of assimilation and segregation as existing dichotomously, which I'm not convinced is the case. As I said before, "integration" does not necessarily imply assimilation, but can refer to a heterogeneous society in which atomic individuals form fluid relationships through shared culture at all levels. One can be American in this context, Asian in that context, a Catholic, a Metallica fan or a Microbrew enthusiast in others. Presenting it as a choice of how many homogeneous monoliths we construct is just over-simplistic.
That's why I think America genuinely is an effective example of a multicultural society- looking at not merely the range of diversity but the depth of diversity it is capable of representing, motivated above all by the recognition of the individual as the base unit of society, shows how such a thing is possible. It's just that, as I said, the only place where this really seems to be an issue in the country are were monoculturalists (on either side!) decide to butt heads and make the whole country look bad.
@luiz- multiculturalism does seek to promote the coexistence of multiple cultures. One of the whole ideas of it is that segregation is not necessary for the continuance of cultural identities. I can live next a Greek family on one side and a Vietnamese family on the other, and we can both coexist and maintain cultural identities.
Ah yes. SBS late on Friday nights; your tax dollars at work.
Ah yes. SBS late on Friday nights; your tax dollars at work.
warpus
In pork I trust
So basically you just said: It doesn't really work in Canada, but it kinda does
What are some problems in Canada that have arisen due to multiculturalism? What exactly isn't working well?
ParkCungHee
Deity
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2006
- Messages
- 12,921
The real reason is that Americans have a relatively clear and baseline concept of what constitutes being an American, and therefor we can allow for more diversity. Because we have a firm civic identity that's tied to our founding documents, we can clearly say "These are American Values", and so we can allow people to be asian in some contexts, catholic in others, etc, because we have fair certainty that that doesn't conflict. "German Values" is much more vague, and therefor harder to establish a baseline. It encompasses numerous fields and any attempt will result in a bunch of stuff being thrown in to any attempt to define "Germanness" or "Frenchness"
America is not a multicultural society in the way that European societies are becoming. European multiculturalism is characterised by suppression of free speech, erosion of values, historical distortion and subsidies for immigrants.
This socially-engineered, artificial model imposes one cost after another on the wallets and freedoms of the host European citizens.
Another aspect of multiculturalism in Europe is that an increase in racism against white people has occurred and anyone who speaks out against it is labelled a Nazi. It is a very intimidating and hypocritical dogma, and there is a double-standard running through the whole thing.
And contrary to what many on the left are now claiming, the left was defending and advancing multiculturalism until only a couple of years ago - many still continue to advance it in private. But typically, when the concept is proven to have failed they don't try to explain their own contradictions and ignorance but simply distance themselves and try to shout down their critics by inverting reality.
This socially-engineered, artificial model imposes one cost after another on the wallets and freedoms of the host European citizens.
Another aspect of multiculturalism in Europe is that an increase in racism against white people has occurred and anyone who speaks out against it is labelled a Nazi. It is a very intimidating and hypocritical dogma, and there is a double-standard running through the whole thing.
And contrary to what many on the left are now claiming, the left was defending and advancing multiculturalism until only a couple of years ago - many still continue to advance it in private. But typically, when the concept is proven to have failed they don't try to explain their own contradictions and ignorance but simply distance themselves and try to shout down their critics by inverting reality.
Then you're doing it wrong.
Cheetah
Deity
Really?! I hadn't noticed!
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
You mean like the rabid opposition to the "9/11 Mosque" and "bringing Sharia law" to Tennessee and elsewhere?
The bigots in the US are using exactly the same excuses to vilify Muslims here as they are in Europe.
holy king
Deity
hard to be a german these days, huh?
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
I don't think the two are distinct; "American Values" creates a basic shared culture, but it does not insist a monoculture. It creates a shared civic identity, without imposing itself into those areas to which it is not directly relevant. After all, identities such as "Asian", "Catholic" or "Metallica fan" don't exist within the American identity (as "Catholic" exists inside "Christian"), they overlap with it- an American Catholic and a British Catholic have a shared identity that crosses national boundaries. European monoculturalism, on the other hand, implicitly (and, historically, explicitly) demand that identities are compiled into a single, homogeneous national form, with any variations- if permitted- being defined as variations within that identity, rather than distinct identities that coincide in an individual. (And, of course, the same would be true of any attempt at multiculturalism which insists upon segregated monoliths- if such a thing actually exists!)
QuoVadisNation
keeping your angel alive
Meh.. Multiculturalism in North America is somewhat of a huge farce. We just have power relationships. ie: Money, jobs, status, enforcement of norms, different groups teaming up to achieve the same goals (Catholics and Pros.), etc. You'd be amazed how poorly Indian males (actual Indians) are treated if they don't act "American."
Based on my experience with Poland, Germany, and France -- it kind of just seems they aren't used to pretending to negotiating quite yet.
Based on my experience with Poland, Germany, and France -- it kind of just seems they aren't used to pretending to negotiating quite yet.
I don't have the patience to read through all these threads. Anyway, my stepmother's sister (step-aunt, yeah) lives in Munich and works in the court system. She said of the people she sees, about 7/10 are immigrants. Not all Muslim or Turkish though, some from the former Yugoslavia and Russia. She's a pretty liberal person and married a Muslim so she has no anti-immigrant bias in saying this. I don't mean to suggest that most immigrants are criminals, even if that was true it doesn't justify discriminating against all but I can see why some people there would be tired of immigration.
I lived in Turkey for awhile and met a couple guys who were deported from there. One of them is schizophrenic and I talked to him in a bar a few times and the other I don't really know what happened but I know he was really into hashish. I think they were deported but they didn't speak English and I speak Turkish at like a pre-intermediate level so I may have misunderstood. At least Turkish people tend to be less fanatical.
Anyway, enough anecdotal talk, just to throw my 2 cents in.
I lived in Turkey for awhile and met a couple guys who were deported from there. One of them is schizophrenic and I talked to him in a bar a few times and the other I don't really know what happened but I know he was really into hashish. I think they were deported but they didn't speak English and I speak Turkish at like a pre-intermediate level so I may have misunderstood. At least Turkish people tend to be less fanatical.
Anyway, enough anecdotal talk, just to throw my 2 cents in.
Quackers
The Frog
Its funny how everybody is talking about how Europe hates it's Muslims and that it is a continuation from hating jews etc...
But what about the sikhs/hindus/asians who are now accepted? Muslims have only themselves to blame for there failure to intergrate into Britain when we compare it to other ethnic groups.
We just got to wait for Islam to reform itself before we let any more of them in.
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But what about the sikhs/hindus/asians who are now accepted? Muslims have only themselves to blame for there failure to intergrate into Britain when we compare it to other ethnic groups.
We just got to wait for Islam to reform itself before we let any more of them in.
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GOD SAVE THE QUEEN
