German multicultural society "has failed" -- Chancellor Merkel

But few contemporary policies are so deliberately planned to prevent integration, they're just ham-fisted attempts at achieving it. Nobody in the UK, for example, expects third-generation Paakistanis to "return" to Pakistan. Modern policies are intended to promote long term co-existence and harmony, whatever shape they may take. Quackers and myself, for example, might not agree on much, but neither of us expect British society to get very far without some attempt at integrating immigrants and natives.
Now, I'm not arguing that damaging policies haven't been undertaken, or that governments haven't made some truly stupid blunders. I'm simply suggesting that it isn't so simple as segregationist-multiculturalism against assimilationist-monoculturalism. Whether one chooses to apply "multiculturalism" purely to the segregationist form or not is really just semantics.

Which is why, again, I point to America, a nation where multiculturalism is so deeply ingrained a principal that they don't even have a name for it. It just is.

As I said multiculturalism comes in many forms. But it's fundamental ideas is that each ethno-cultural group should keep a separate identity, and the State should recognise and encourage that. Opponent of multiculturalism oppose that.

As I've been saying, the US is not multicultural at all. Being multi-ethnic does not mean being multicultural. The US is a melting pot, the different cultures are blended and newcomers are quickly assimilated to the dominant culture (with the arguable exception of the Southwest).

That's, like, the opposite of a genuinely multicultural policy approach to migration and citizenship. That's the maintaince of foreign workers that are useful but are considered outsiders who will leave.

This is precisely the problem with much European "multiculturalism". It's insufficiently accepting of diversity and, you know, other cultures.

It's all been about passive "tolerance" of people's presence but still seeing them as foreigners, rather than genuine acceptance of diversity and the implications that must bring to our ideas of community and citizenship. In other words, it's not multicultural enough. It's this crappy half-way house where migration is consdiered a dirty economic necessity, and therefore migrants are treated like temporary guest-workers. If you want to define that as multiculturalism you're defining the very concept of having migration from different cultures, at all, as "multiculturalism". Which is weak and useless and dumb and wrong.

Apparently you have not understood my critique of multiculturalism (or Merkel's critique, which you were the first to point out).

If you want to define multiculturalism as "tolerance" and "acceptance", fine. No reasonable person opposes that. But we already have words for "tolerance" and "acceptance".

My definition of multiculturalism (which is the same definition Merkel is using and also the Wiki article, so it's hardly something I am making up) is a deliberate attempt to make ethno-cultural groups retain their distinctions. That's the only useful definition.

Multiculturalism is the opposite of assimilationism and integration, not of bigotry and intolerance. One can be a multiculturalist precisely because one is a bigot. One can also be a multiculturalist for good, even if misguided, reasons.

That's where honest discussion should be focused.
 
There's a place between pure multiculturalism and pure assimilation where flowers grow and rabbits hop and everyone is merry and sing about the clouds and reek of vanilla.

There are few ideas which are wise to take to their extremes. This is one of them.
 
There's a place between pure multiculturalism and pure assimilation where flowers grow and rabbits hop and everyone is merry and sing about the clouds and reek of vanilla.

There are few ideas which are wise to take to their extremes. This is one of them.

B...b...but if you subscribe to one idea you must also subscribe to all possible versions of that idea when taken to absurd extremes! Otherwise the world is *gasp* complex!
 
It was the violence of the Spartakusbund in 1919 that began the cycle of violence that paralysed the Weimar Republic. The Weimar Republic would have been perfectly fine if these left-wing fanatics hadn't resisted the healthy development of liberal capitalism in Germany.
Uh...those left-wing "fanatics" started the violence when they started the Weimar Republic. Also, what cycle that paralyzed the Weimar Republic? After the Beer Hall Putsch there was no organized violence for at least five years, and depending on what you include there was no really organized political violence until the Nazis took power.
 
There's a place between pure multiculturalism and pure assimilation where flowers grow and rabbits hop and everyone is merry and sing about the clouds and reek of vanilla.

There are few ideas which are wise to take to their extremes. This is one of them.

B...b...but if you subscribe to one idea you must also subscribe to all possible versions of that idea when taken to absurd extremes! Otherwise the world is *gasp* complex!

Well if you guys read my posts instead being sarcastic, you'd see that throughout the thread I insisted that there are various degrees of multiculturalism and various reasons to support or oppose multicultural policies.

The very important point I was making is that multiculturalism is not a different name for tolerance. It is a specific ideology, and like all ideologies it comes in different shades. But it's core is not only that we should be tolerant of different cultures, but that the government should recognise and encourage the preservation of cultural differences. Multiculturalism implies the official division of society in ethno-cultural groups. And I am not talking of an extreme strawman examples like forcing Jews to wear yellow stars or crap like that, I am talking about practices that were indeed implemented (and some still are) in Europe and elsewhere on recent times.

I am saying that it is possible to be pro-immigration and extremely tolerant while at the same being opposed to multiculturalism. Nobody is more liberal when it comes to immigration than me, but I loathe multiculturalism in all its forms.

Now if instead of repeating time and time again that multiculturalism is just "tolerance and respect" or using silly sarcasm people would actually say why they believe it is important to keep the different ethno-cultural groups from full integration, we could have a decent discussion.
 
@luiz: while I agree with your definition multiculturism is valid and would agree with your assessment of it (though i would add that cultural identies have outlived themselves anyways), this is not at the core of the debate here.

It really is simply a reflex of the conservatives when faced with bad polls. "How can we motivate our voter base: Ah yes, lets blame some foreigners!". Obviously they put in some caveats as to counter any accusations of racism but that's it.

If one looks at the arguments, none of them hold. I already pointed out of the negative immigration of turks. A second argument concerns the immigrants who don't attend the mandatory 'integration courses'. If one checks the stats, it turns out this is done by ~1% of the immigrants. A valid point is the economical underperformance is of the immigrants. But as these were brought into the country specifically for low wage work this is not surprising. Each new generations is narrowing the achievement gap, contrary to some bogus claims. The rest is semi religous bs (judeo-christian heritage ?!).

Luckily the population isn't buying this crap and it actually seems possible that the Green party might provide the next chancellor :)
 
Luckily the population isn't buying this crap and it actually seems possible that the Green party might provide the next chancellor :)
Regarding the CDU/CSU effort to swim on the immigration debate towards more votes I share your smile if this won't work (it is so obviously dishonest). Regarding the Green party providing the next chancellor, I could burst out in tears. I just note their generous welfare plans and now hint to my first post in this thread two, three pages back.
And if we talk about dishonest vote catching in general, the Green party is currently the German champion.
(Though I could use th extra 200€ the Green ones promise every student).
 
The big difference between countries like the USA, Australia, Singapore, Canada, etc., and most nation states in the world, is that the first group defines themselves as a country of such and such laws where individuals agree to such and such, while the second group defines themselves as a country of individuals of a distinct background and culture!

Most (all?) nation states can not integrate foreign people in such an amount as the melting-pot countries can, for the simple reason that they would lose their raison d'être!

Without having nation states as countries for one specific group, there is really no reason to have them at all, and we can all just become the United States of Earth, with total diversity and no special areas for each culture.

While such a world wouldn't be bad per se, I much more prefer a world where there is a difference between going to or living in Pakistan, Kenya, Russia, Iraq, Japan, China, Peru, France, Germany and so many others.

But of course, if I'm the only one who thinks this way, I guess I must just drop my idea of nation states, as I can't be expected to uphold this idea by solitary self. But to me, that would also mean that my Norwegian identity becomes worthless.
Well, I disagree, I suppose. I view mundane co-existence as preferable to romantic hostility. Perhaps it comes from the fact that I live in a nation where the "raison d'être" is formally divined as civic, and not ethnic, but I see no virtue in the anti-individualistic essentialism of the ethnic nationalist.
Nor, for that matter, do I see us devolving into the grey cultural sludge which you assume; it betrays a fervent belief in the inevitability of the monoculture, which is the very thing I reject. And not on idealistic grounds alone- just look at modern society when compared to a century previous, and witness the diversity which is so mundane as to be below comment. Aside from anything else, integrated minorities inevitably move closer to the natives than the reverse, and so, while we'll all be a little closer (as if this was a bad thing!), we're hardly going to end up as five hundred million square miles of American suburbia.

(And, for the record, Pakistan is a very poor example- it's a constructed, multi-ethnic state with no independent history before 1947. It is a civic nation and religious nation, not an ethnic one; it's apparent uniformity is the result of a strong nationalist feeling, a tendency for shared religion to override ethnic divisions, and Western ignorance.)

As I said multiculturalism comes in many forms. But it's fundamental ideas is that each ethno-cultural group should keep a separate identity, and the State should recognise and encourage that. Opponent of multiculturalism oppose that.

As I've been saying, the US is not multicultural at all. Being multi-ethnic does not mean being multicultural. The US is a melting pot, the different cultures are blended and newcomers are quickly assimilated to the dominant culture (with the arguable exception of the Southwest).
And, as I said, I think that you're conflating one segregationist form of multiculturalism with the idea in its most basic form, which I believe is inaccurate. Maintaing a distinct identity does not mean segregation; I have a distinct ethnic identity as an Irish-Scot, but that does not mean I live sequestered in the Paddytown ghetto. It is possible to be different from everybody else without having to physically remove yourself from them.

Also, I would contest the assertion that American minorities have been "assimilated", as the term is traditionally concieved. While each obviously moved towards the established norm, but in doing so were able to both exert influence, and, in many cases, to maintain themselves, in certain ways, apart from it (it's not as if we can conflate the experiences of German and Chinese immigrants). If this were not the case, then every scrap of America would seem like England removed by six thousand miles, which is quite self-evidently not the case.
 
Regarding the CDU/CSU effort to swim on the immigration debate towards more votes I share your smile if this won't work (it is so obviously dishonest). Regarding the Green party providing the next chancellor, I could burst out in tears. I just note their generous welfare plans and now hint to my first post in this thread two, three pages back.
And if we talk about dishonest vote catching in general, the Green party is currently the German champion.
(Though I could use th extra 200€ the Green ones promise every student).

Dishonest vote-catching ? I think it's pretty hard to beat the FDP in this regard.
Spoiler :



I think the greens are only strong in the polls because they had no opportunity to disappoint the voters on the federal level for some years now. I doubt it will translate into actual votes in 2013.
I actually haven't heard much about the Greens lately, what do you mean with "generous welfare plan" ? To me they currently look like a liberal party (what the FDP was until the early eighties and occasionally still pretends to be) + a little envirionmentalism. Last clear position I heard from them was Özdemir about the whole Stuttgart21 mess.
 
I think the greens are only strong in the polls because they had no opportunity to disappoint the voters on the federal level for some years now.
Most certainly
I doubt it will translate into actual votes in 2013.
I hope not.
I actually haven't heard much about the Greens lately, what do you mean with "generous welfare plan" ? To me they currently look like a liberal party (what the FDP was until the early eighties and occasionally still pretends to be) + a little envirionmentalism.
They are a liberal left party.
Increase of Hartz IV, way more money for students and other things. I read the complete list in a magazine I don't have anymore.
Last clear position I heard from them was Özdemir about the whole Stuttgart21 mess.
That is because the Green party doesn't care about its own ideas in public for now, but only tries to benefit from the general sentiment of dissatisfaction. For instances by commenting on media events like Stuttgart21. Is it a smart move? Yes. Is it one actually related to showing their good ideas for this country? No. And as far as I am concerned: Political opposition being nothing else than tiresome publicity tactics without a shred of content (except that the atomic plants have to be shut down that is) is just a fail IMO.
But dishonest was maybe a superfluous attribute. Not because this is honest, but because every political party would probably do so if having the same success with it. So the attribute political seems to suffice.
 
The problem of multiculturalism is that it is usually in the following form... The society consists of the major nation who are more developed and the minorities are usually from less developed countries. There are no such multicultural country where for example are 75% of Arabians and 25% of French. This sounds nonsense? Right.

These problems started when the first world was generous enough to give asylum for the people from third world that they should not suffer the pain what they get in their homeland. Ok, but they brought with them the bad habbits and now demand that the natives in Europe should adapt their customs so these would suit better for muslims. It is about same if an asocial guy gets a room in your house because you are good man and then he tells you that he doesn't like your wife, you have to dump her. And if you deny then you are intolerant.

What I want to say that the immigrants should not have the right to tell to natives to change their customs if they don't like. They shouldn't riot when they see pork in restaurants. This is not their business at all. If they don't like then in the world there are a lot of arabian countries where pork is prohibited and there is the right place for them. But they don't want to go back to their homeland because they can't enjoy that welfare than they get in europe. It is like a parasitism.

I know I get some flames from naive liberals who say I'm racist, xenophobe, facist, bigot... whatever. But I hope here is a freedom of speech, not a sensorship.
 
These problems started when the first world was generous enough to give asylum for the people from third world that they should not suffer the pain what they get in their homeland.
I don't know about your country, but in most of Europe, the first immigrants (and most of the succeeding ones) came from colonies or former colonies- India and the West Indies for the UK, for example. They were brought in for economic rather than humanitarian reasons.
 
Admittedly, I'm not very well aquainted with current European political issues, but didn't alot of the Islamic fundamentalism in Europe really start with all of the 'OMG EVIL ISLAM' groups?
Sure, there will be some clashes with any large scale immegrant movement, but to say passive multiculturalism is bad because of a few clashes is a bit shortsighted.
 
I don't know about your country, but in most of Europe, the first immigrants (and most of the succeeding ones) came from colonies or former colonies- India and the West Indies for the UK, for example. They were brought in for economic rather than humanitarian reasons.

So you wanna say that Turkey was the former German Colony?
And by that logic the Russia was a former Estonian, Latvian, Ukrainian etc colony? LOL!
 
So you wanna say that Turkey was the former German Colony?
That's obviously an exception, and it's certainly an economic program, rather than a humanitarian one.

And by that logic the Russia was a former Estonian, Latvian, Ukrainian etc colony? LOL!
That's not really the sort of immigration we're talking about. That would be the equivalent of Irish and Poles coming to Britain, not Pakistanis. It's also as much as an exception to your description as any of my examples.
 
That's obviously an exception, although the two countries have traditionally had fairly strong diplomatic links, and it's certainly an economic program, rather than a humanitarian one.

But the real reason of the Turkish immigration is that in the Germany the life is far better than in Turkey and even without work you get a lot of aids which is enough for their lifestyle. What I want to say is that the immigrants have a lot of work to do to integrate into the German society but not that Germans have to strive to be favored by Turkish. The last is nonsense.

That's not really the sort of immigration we're talking about. That would be the equivalent of Irish and Poles coming to Britain, not Pakistanis. It's also as much as an exception to your description as any of my examples.

This would be same when Irish and Poles had invaded England in the past.
 
Well, I disagree, I suppose. I view mundane co-existence as preferable to romantic hostility. Perhaps it comes from the fact that I live in a nation where the "raison d'être" is formally divined as civic, and not ethnic, but I see no virtue in the anti-individualistic essentialism of the ethnic nationalist.
Nor, for that matter, do I see us devolving into the grey cultural sludge which you assume; it betrays a fervent belief in the inevitability of the monoculture, which is the very thing I reject. And not on idealistic grounds alone- just look at modern society when compared to a century previous, and witness the diversity which is so mundane as to be below comment. Aside from anything else, integrated minorities inevitably move closer to the natives than the reverse, and so, while we'll all be a little closer (as if this was a bad thing!), we're hardly going to end up as five hundred million square miles of American suburbia.

(And, for the record, Pakistan is a very poor example- it's a constructed, multi-ethnic state with no independent history before 1947. It is a civic nation and religious nation, not an ethnic one; it's apparent uniformity is the result of a strong nationalist feeling, a tendency for shared religion to override ethnic divisions, and Western ignorance.)
I'm moving our discussion to the new, more general multicultural thread if you don't mind. :)
 
But the real reason of the Turkish immigration is that in the Germany the life is far better than in Turkey and even without work you get a lot of aids which is enough for their lifestyle. What I want to say is that the immigrants have a lot of work to do to integrate into the German society but not that Germans have to strive to be favored by Turkish. The last is nonsense.
I think that is something of a straw-man. At least, nobody has ever told me that I need to earn the favour of immigrants. :huh:

This would be same when Irish and Poles had invaded England in the past.
Then... Russians aren't immigrating? :confused:
 
Admittedly, I'm not very well aquainted with current European political issues, but didn't alot of the Islamic fundamentalism in Europe really start with all of the 'OMG EVIL ISLAM' groups?
Sure, there will be some clashes with any large scale immegrant movement, but to say passive multiculturalism is bad because of a few clashes is a bit shortsighted.
The "'OMG EVIL ISLAM' groups" as you refer to them got their steam from the pressure the Islamic fundamentalism had caused before that.
 
Top Bottom