Steam - love or hate?

[Senethro]

Didn't mean to make you squirm around with no answers. Read the subscriber agreement, and you'll see it's all in there. "Oh Wait, that may be too much work for you to read something, plus you would have to understand it" I guess you can go on with the "It's a big conspiracy against me" type thing.

And the existence of a secret Valve gestapo who close accounts for breaking rules in online games? They've previously been called Steam Moderators by the anti-Steam crowd and were claimed to actually monitor your activities in-game, not just the forums like the guy in the stickied thread. Are you going to provide evidence for them this time?

 

[tom2050]

Come on, you can use your thought processes better than that, now... Subscriber Agreement = what Valve can do... if you want pretty examples with pictures, there is a brand new thing called Google! Perhaps you have heard of it? You can type something into it, and search for articles related to real-life instances. If you are not motivated to do so, you'll probably ask me to provide you with instances. I call this being on the lazy side though.. so hopefully you can do it yourself.

Research can do you some good!

 

[tom2050]

And the existence of a secret Valve gestapo who close accounts for breaking rules in online games? They've previously been called Steam Moderators by the anti-Steam crowd and were claimed to actually monitor your activities in-game, not just the forums like the guy in the stickied thread. Are you going to provide evidence for them this time?

You believe in a Valve gestapo? You are calling Valve Nazi's? So you are saying Steam is a bunch of Nazi's? Senethro, you have some issues.. you recently said you 'maybe' want to murder Soren Johnson (the Civ 4 guy). Leave these kind of polluted statements elsewhere.

I said Valve has a subscriber agreement, and immediately you jump to massive conspiracies. I have already provided links for them all before 5 came out...

Senethro, CFC has a search ability also? Perhaps you can learn how to use it.

BTW: I don't even mind Steam that much, I just don't care for a few things in the subscriber agreement.

 

[Senethro]

Come on, you can use your thought processes better than that, now... Subscriber Agreement = what Valve can do... if you want pretty examples with pictures, there is a brand new thing called Google! Perhaps you have heard of it? You can type something into it, and search for articles related to real-life instances. If you are not motivated to do so, you'll probably ask me to provide you with instances. I call this being on the lazy side though.. so hopefully you can do it yourself.

Research can do you some good!

Usually the burden of proof is on the guy making a claim. How about linking some examples.

 

[Jharii]

What Steam *can* do legally and what Steam *actually* does are two completely different things. There is such a thing as good business practice, reputation, and the BBB, amongst other things. They wouldn't stay in business very long if they put those things into practice.

So yes, I don't need to disprove anything you have to say. They are a legitamite, reputable, and successful company. You are the one tossing out the insults about them. Back up your venom or don't. I really don't care at this point.

 

[tom2050]

Usually the burden of proof is on the guy making a claim. How about linking some examples.

Usually I will do so, but I have already done it.. you just don't know how or don't want to use a search engine, so I feel no need to hand-feed you information already available. Furthermore, I don't care to conversate with people that 'maybe' want Soren Johnson killed. Go talk to someone else.

What Steam *can* do legally and what Steam *actually* does are two completely different things.

I already said and explained that. I made it clear they don't do it often at all; well read my previous post:

Might not happen very often, because it's bad for business to do so, but it does happen.

It happens Rarely; which should be obvious because it doesn't happen Very Often. I can add 'rarely' to the end of the above sentence if anyone likes.

 

[Senethro]

You believe in a Valve gestapo? You are calling Valve Nazi's? So you are saying Steam is a bunch of Nazi's? Senethro, you have some issues.. you recently said you 'maybe' want to murder Soren Johnson (the Civ 4 guy). Leave these kind of polluted statements elsewhere.

I said Valve has a subscriber agreement, and immediately you jump to massive conspiracies. I have already provided links for them all before 5 came out...

Senethro, CFC has a search ability also? Perhaps you can learn how to use it.

BTW: I don't even mind Steam that much, I just don't care for a few things in the subscriber agreement.

No Tom, read the part of your own post I quoted. You're the one who made the claim. Would you like to discuss it or continually misrepresent every sentence I type?

 

[Senethro]

Usually I will do so, but I have already done it.. you just don't know how or don't want to use a search engine, so I feel no need to hand-feed you information already available.

No, usually you will not do so. A lack of evidence is more typical of your posts. Indeed, when you do try to make a claim with a supporting link, you outrageously cherry pick and edit them, as you tried to do here.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=367264

So again, would you like to provide evidence this time?

 

[marc420]

Topic needed a poll.

I know the fanboys out here will scream at me, but I hate steam.

 

[tom2050]

Yes, I could not be told why that applied either. In fact, a person above the person said he saw nothing wrong since I provided website links, but he couldn't or wouldn't change it.

Again, it comes down to the fact, that you don't like to actually read. It's an epidemic in todays world. Some people don't like to read information. You cherry pick all your pro-Steam information also Senethro, and ignore everything else.

In fact, the reason I put that thread in place, was to counter all the misinformation that you, Senethro, were cherry picking and feeding to the forums during those days.

The real question is, can you disprove that information that I left... you could not disprove it back then, and you still can't. Since the subscriber agreement says that they can do all those claims, they stand as being possibly true.

 

[Jharii]

I already said and explained that. I made it clear they don't do it often at all; well read my previous post:

It happens Rarely; which should be obvious because it doesn't happen Very Often. I can add 'rarely' to the end of the above sentence if anyone likes.

You cannot offer me anything but your word of mouth, so you've really made nothing clear, except for your disdain towards Steam. Even though I asked politely, twice now, for some actual examples.

But please, continue your condescension towards me. This definitely makes you look more right.

 

[Senethro]

Yes, I could not be told why that applied either. In fact, a person above the person said he saw nothing wrong since I provided website links, but he couldn't or wouldn't change it.

So was the text accompanying the warning not clear enough: Do not edit quotes in a misleading manner?

Again, it comes down to the fact, that you don't like to actually read. It's an epidemic in todays world. Some people don't like to read information. You cherry pick all your pro-Steam information also Senethro, and ignore everything else.

You are claiming I don't like to read, despite a reading and rebuttal of the articles you quoted in that topic and showing that a couple of them meant very different or opposite to what you claimed the edited quotes said?

I hope you've improved your reading since then.

In fact, the reason I put that thread in place, was to counter all the misinformation that you, Senethro, were cherry picking and feeding to the forums during those days.

Misinformation like what?

(Here's your chance btw. Link something I knowingly lied about)

The real question is, can you disprove that information that I left... you could not disprove it back then, and you still can't. Since the subscriber agreement says that they can do all those claims, they stand as being possibly true.

No tom, you made a positive statement that Steam moderators monitoring your behaviour in online games exist. If you're wanting to start backpedaling could you please indicate what statements of yours you are downgrading from True to Possibly True.

 

[Jharii]

Here's the Better Business Bureau's informatin on Valve, who they give an overall B- to. The link provides the reported incidents, both those that are closed and those that remain open.

http://www.bbb.org/western-washingt...ers/valve-corporation-in-bellevue-wa-27030704

Just to give you a barometer:

Best Buy - A+
Electronic Arts - A
Gamestop - B+
Target - A
Tiger Direct - A
Microsoft - A+
Walmart - F
Geico - B
Comcast - C
AT&T - A+
DirecTV - F
Dish - C

So... according to the BBB, while they have a lower grade than a lot of the big names, they are still above average.

 

[ButSam]

Very annoyed at steam for what seems like common sense. I have logged in online before, but right now I'm somewhere that blocks certain internet content (including something I need to go online in Steam). But when I try to start Steam, it complains that my Username/Password were not stored (even though I checked the box to store it), and therefore it could not log me on in offline mode.

Absolutely ridiculous. I understand requiring one-time internet access, but after that, I should be able to just type in my username/password even if they cannot connect to the steam server.

 

[rbj2001]

No, usually you will not do so. A lack of evidence is more typical of your posts. Indeed, when you do try to make a claim with a supporting link, you outrageously cherry pick and edit them, as you tried to do here.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=367264

So again, would you like to provide evidence this time?

How about you read the thread you're posting in.

I cannot stand Steam. Here's why:

I ordered APB through Steam pre release. On launch day, I entered my key and played for a week. After that week, my key stopped working. (They sold me a beta key and not a retail key. Also, this was for 2 accounts...both got beta keys). I spent nearly 2 months trying to get a new key from Steam or RTW, but neither company was willing to do anything other than tell me to clear my cache or...enter my key. I'm no software pro, but I do build rigs for a living, so I have a grasp on the basics. Nothing I do on my side of things will magically turn a beta key into a retail key. Anyway, I called the bank to reverse the charges. (Keep in mind, this was after 2 months worth of emails, totaling around 40, about half of which got a response). My bank takes this stuff pretty seriously, but they read through all of the info I sent and had no issues returning my money.

So...Steam decided to cancel my account and take every other game that I ordered along with it. They told me that I needed to "return their money" or I would not get the other games that I paid for. Granted, I only had about $100 in games, but they took it right back. Thus, my options were to pay them $100 again to get 2 beta keys that don't actually run the game I ordered, or not pay them and bite the bullet on the $100 I spent on other games. Either way, I'm out $100. Lesson learned. If you order something from Steam and they don't give it to you, you better pay them either way or EVERY other game you paid for will be revoked. It's kind of like if you return a game or something to Best Buy, they come over to your house to reclaim everything else you bought from them. This is how Steam works. So yeah...I really don't like Steam.

 

[Drakarska]

Here's the Better Business Bureau's informatin on Valve, who they give an overall B- to. The link provides the reported incidents, both those that are closed and those that remain open.

http://www.bbb.org/western-washingt...ers/valve-corporation-in-bellevue-wa-27030704

Just to give you a barometer:

Best Buy - A+
Electronic Arts - A
Gamestop - B+
Target - A
Tiger Direct - A
Microsoft - A+
Walmart - F
Geico - B
Comcast - C
AT&T - A+
DirecTV - F
Dish - C

So... according to the BBB, while they have a lower grade than a lot of the big names, they are still above average.

With respect Jharii, did you read the entire synopsis of the BBB rating for Valve?

Here:

Consumer complaints primarily allege defective gaming software . Specifically, consumers indicate that the advertised system requirements met the gaming software is non-functional, they experience a delay or nonexistent customer support, advertised gaming features are unavailable or inoperable . Additionally they have problems purchasing games , an example is cards being declined when funds available, and accounts being disabled without reasoning or explanation. Business usually responds to consumer complaints by explaining company policies including their no refund policy , by resolving account discrepancies, and in some cases offering refunds.

There's also a list of unresolved issues. Though, to be fair, peeps did not always reply back to the BBB. While i'm not trying to increase the flaming here, there is some validity to his posts ( abeit, some hard verifiable facts would be appreciated besides just the BBB). While i'm not agreeing with his methods of discourse, things do happen over at Valve/Steam, and a potential subscriber should check all of his/her facts before making a decision to join.

 

[Senethro]

How about you read the thread you're posting in.

APB is a failed MMO that died within weeks of release and prompted a whole bunch of articles written about why it failed. The whole thing was such a screwup that it may have been the case that there were literally no retail keys to be upgraded to, assuming that the poster you're quoting didn't just make a mistake with what he was buying. He certainly made a mistake when he decided his best course of action was to get the bank involved instead of Steam Support which he should have known breaks the Steam Subscriber Agreement.

The problems were most likely Realtime Worlds, not Steams.

Which is irrelevant anyway because I was asking for evidence about the existence of the scary Steam Moderators that shut down your account if you behave badly in online games. Valve obviously shut down Steam accounts for reasons relating to payment disputes or hacking, its in the SSA. Perhaps you should read more carefully, huh?

On the same topic we can get someone elses opinion on the subject and he's posting in this very thread!

With respect Jharii, did you read the entire synopsis of the BBB rating for Valve?

Here:

Consumer complaints primarily allege defective gaming software . Specifically, consumers indicate that the advertised system requirements met the gaming software is non-functional, they experience a delay or nonexistent customer support, advertised gaming features are unavailable or inoperable . Additionally they have problems purchasing games , an example is cards being declined when funds available, and accounts being disabled without reasoning or explanation. Business usually responds to consumer complaints by explaining company policies including their no refund policy , by resolving account discrepancies, and in some cases offering refunds.

There's also a list of unresolved issues. Though, to be fair, peeps did not always reply back to the BBB. While i'm not trying to increase the flaming here, there is some validity to his posts ( abeit, some hard verifiable facts would be appreciated besides just the BBB). While i'm not agreeing with his methods of discourse, things do happen over at Valve/Steam, and a potential subscriber should check all of his/her facts before making a decision to join.

You should be an expert on this subject. Did your son ever tell you why his Steam account was closed?

 

[Jharii]

With respect Jharii, did you read the entire synopsis of the BBB rating for Valve?

Yes, and with respect, I did simply provide the information for everyone to consume. I did so without prejudice or bias.

This is just one tool/method to take a snapshot of Steam. And to be quite honest, as many people that do not like them (actually, so adamantly against them), I expected this grade to be a LOT lower, not above average, even if slightly.

 

[Licinia Eudoxia]

Yeah, I was gonna post here to add that APB was a horrible, horrible disastrous mess. I have a friend who worked for Realtime Worlds (and is now unemployed, naturally), and I watched the whole thing with the morbid fascination one shows for a train wreck. It was very impressive how so many facets of the game went so horribly wrong, from graphics to netcode to community management to PR to accounts to billing.

 

[tom2050]

You cannot offer me anything but your word of mouth, so you've really made nothing clear, except for your disdain towards Steam. Even though I asked politely, twice now, for some actual examples.

I said I don't mind Steam, except for a few things with it. I told you already, the subscriber agreement has it all in there, try reading it. If you want colorful examples with pop-up pictures, those don't exist. You cannot offer me anything but your word of mouth, so you've really made nothing clear, except for your disdain towards those who have very small (and I mean very small) issues with the subscriber agreement. I've asked you to disprove it with examples, so please do so.

So was the text accompanying the warning not clear enough: Do not edit quotes in a misleading manner?

Wrong, I didn't include the whole text of each lengthy webpage (mods have an issue with doing that), so I took paragraphs out of the page. You see, the length of the post would have exceeded the character limit allowed by CFC, so I had to limit the text count. Nothing misleading about that. But by ignoring facts of the subscriber agreement (even if the issues are very very small), you are misleading yourself.

No tom, you made a positive statement that Steam moderators monitoring your behaviour in online games exist. If you're wanting to start backpedaling could you please indicate what statements of yours you are downgrading from True to Possibly True.

Yes, it seems they do, and they take action just like mods here do. If they see someone cussing up a storm, or making statements that should not be made like you did with "I think 'maybe' Soren Johnson should be murdered", they take action, and rightfully so.

Difference is, you might lose the ability to enjoy the game you bought. Here on CFC you purchased nothing, so it doesn't matter. Of course, if you buy a Steam game, and make statements like you did, it is indeed that persons fault for losing the game they bought, or being temp banned.