Israel VS Palestine, who do you support?

[Ayn Rand]

So I should limit myself to responding to the posts made by pro-Palestinian posters, who don't respond or acknowledge anywhere - in not one single post - and never have responded in all of these discussions [not once!] to the fact that the Palestinians are terrorists and torturers, who routinely murder their own people if they ask for compromise and peace.

Part of a discussion is to recognise the facts that the other side raises. None of the pro-Palestinian camp ever do. They want to portray Palestinians as powerless victims, and don't acknowledge the mindless terrorism, death squads or torture chambers that sustain the Palestinian Jihadist cause. Because then it would become clear who the real warmongers, racists and oppressors of the Palestinian people are - it's Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Great, and you're doing it again. Key Riced. I should have known that my criticism should have had to be read, understood and acknowledged first before any progress was to be made. Wasted effort +1.

Nevermind my comments Ayn, I should have known better, just keep owning them imaginary discussions.

 

[Ayn Rand]

Great, and you're doing it again. Key Riced. I should have known that my criticism should have had to be read, understood and acknowledged first before any progress was to be made. Wasted effort +1.

Nevermind my comments Ayn, I should have known better, just keep owning them imaginary discussions.

Do me a favour and drop the pretence that you want a free and fair discussion. If you want that, you only have to acknowledge the points I raised about human rights abuses in Palestine and the Arab World. But rather than do that, you would prefer to explore the avenue of making it personal.

Perhaps your effort would be better spent explaining why the Palestinians use widespread torture on their own people. It doesn't seem right that the "good guys" should be behaving in this way, does it?

 

[Mr. Dictator]

So I should limit myself to responding to the posts made by pro-Palestinian posters, who don't respond or acknowledge anywhere - in not one single post - and never have responded in all of these discussions [not once!] to the fact that the Palestinians are terrorists and torturers, who routinely murder their own people if they ask for compromise and peace.

Part of a discussion is to recognise the facts that the other side raises. None of the pro-Palestinian camp ever do. They want to portray Palestinians as powerless victims, and don't acknowledge the mindless terrorism, death squads or torture chambers that sustain the Palestinian Jihadist cause. Because then it would become clear who the real warmongers, racists and oppressors of the Palestinian people are - it's Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah.

What is this, i don't even....

Almost everyone has agreed the terrorism on both sides is unacceptable. Some have said its understandable why they'd come to it, given their situation, but you hear the exact same thing coming from the pro-israel camp when another bomb lands on a house.

It seems as if all you needed to know about the situation was what religion either follows, given your constant rantings against Islam, and your mind was made up on the issue and you decided to take up the good fight. Anyone who disagrees is a fraud, evil, or stupid...right Ayn?

Also, protip: don't lump everyone into sweeping generalizations based on some group their a part of or what have you. That kind of goes against the basis of libertarian thought itself, and since I assume you're going for authenticity in your branding of yourself on this forum (what with your username and all) it might be best to go ahead and go full tow and make any changes necessary.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Do me a favour and drop the pretence that you want a free and fair discussion. If you want that, you only have to acknowledge the points I raised about human rights abuses in Palestine and the Arab World. But rather than do that, you would prefer to explore the avenue of making it personal.

Perhaps your effort would be better spent explaining why the Palestinians use widespread torture on their own people. It doesn't seem right that the "good guys" should be behaving in this way, does it?

Perhaps you should assume less, since I already stated I am not supporting either side and I'm supporting both sides. I don't consider this a football match where you get to pick a side. Reality doesn't work like that. There's a-holes on both sides who do everything to keep the status quo in tact, there are good people on both sides who try to find a solution. I don't deal in sweeping statements and absolutes like you.

This is why I thought I might make a comment, since I haven't participated in the discussion. But well done on the assumptions mate. I guess your reasoning went: "He's a leftie, he's in the pro-Palestine camp". And you really do know us lefties well enough to tell us our arguments, don't you?

And if you think that recognizing an argument tactic you often use and commenting on how I feel about that tactic is "making it personal" then I'm sorry. I didn't recognize you identified with your argumentation to such an extend that criticism towards them is equal to a personal attack. I admit it's rather unheard of to criticize one's arguments on a message board. I apologize and I'll stop doing so right away and hopefully will be able to restrain myself in the future.

Happy mirror-blind debating Mate.

 

[Bast]

Israel has a better human rights record than the entire Arab world including Palestine. Based on this, it's hard to support Palestine against Israel. A two-state solution has been offered but it seems that all most Palestinians want is the land of Israel all to themselves with the infrastructure and economy built by Israelis minus the Israelis. In other words, they want the money and wealth built by others.

Where was Palestine before the establishment of the state of Israel? If time can be turned back and the Holocaust never happened and no Jews returned to Palestine, where would Palestine be? Not the modern, developed, liberal democracy that exists as Israel today. It will most likely look like Lebanon or Syria.

But alas, time cannot be turned back. The state of Israel was created fairly. Israel did win the wars fought against it by aggressors fairly. Israel has offered and was refused any viable peace deals.

Why should Israel and Israelis keep having to bend themselves over backwards?

 

[Ayn Rand]

Perhaps you should assume less, since I already stated I am not supporting either side and I'm supporting both sides. I don't consider this a football match where you get to pick a side. Reality doesn't work like that. There's a-holes on both sides who do everything to keep the status quo in tact, there are good people on both sides who try to find a solution. I don't deal in sweeping statements and absolutes like you.

This is why I thought I might make a comment, since I haven't participated in the discussion. But well done on the assumptions mate. I guess your reasoning went: "He's a leftie, he's in the pro-Palestine camp". And you really do know us lefties well enough to tell us our arguments, don't you?

And if you think that recognizing an argument tactic you often use and commenting on how I feel about that tactic is "making it personal" then I'm sorry. I didn't recognize you identified with your argumentation to such an extend that criticism towards them is equal to a personal attack. I admit it's rather unheard of to criticize one's arguments on a message board. I apologize and I'll stop doing so right away and hopefully will be able to restrain myself in the future.

Happy mirror-blind debating Mate.

You kind of proved my point - that entire post and you didn't once talk about the issue - which is as I was expecting from you. Your entire posting history with me has been exactly the same. Stop trying to make it about me just because I put up some facts and arguments that go against the party line, okay? Thanks.

 

[Mr. Dictator]

You kind of proved my point - that entire post and you didn't once talk about the issue - which is as I was expecting from you. Your entire posting history with me has been exactly the same. Stop trying to make it about me just because I put up some facts and arguments that go against the party line, okay? Thanks.

But you can't really argue any issue with someone who accuses you of following the "party line" when you disagree with them.

But if they're facts, perhaps you can show us some? Because right now the fact is that you came in with a brilliant expose of the oppositions' own arguments out of thin air.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

But you can't really argue any issue with someone who accuses you of following the "party line" when you disagree with them.

It really boggles the mind when I just stated my position on the issue and it gets missed completely doesn't it?

 

[onedreamer]

1. They are freer in fact, they are the freest country in the Middle East, while Palestine is not free at all.

LOL? Did you mean the best armed and most supported by westerners?

Now, before you blame that on Israel:

2. No Muslim state, even the "Secular" ones, get a freedomhouse rating of "Free." While some Muslim states have SOME protection of religious minorities, there is no Muslim state as secular as a European Country or even a borderline free nation like India. I don't blame moderate Muslims for this, but I blame the fact that Islamic government, or an "Islamic State" is a bad idea (It logically follows that any religious state is a bad idea.) And no, Israel isn't really a "Jewish state." Its a state for Jewish people (Though others can live there as well if they do it peacefully.) But its not a Jewish state by religion.

Apart a DUE LOL to Israel not being a Jewish state, so Israelian citizens are more free, or freer as you say, than Saudi arabians? Hmmkay. So this is the reason why I should support the wiping of muslim countries? And why do you call Israel NOT a Jewish country, but all the other countries around it are "Muslim" countries? Do I spot some religious bias here? Each people deserve to live in their lands peacefully. This is more important than them living "freer", which is the second step. Until religious intolerant people like you will crumble the world, this will not be possible, sadly.

3. Israel are our allies against the War on Terror. Meanwhile, the current Palestinian government ARE terrorists (Hamas.)

Discuss. Poll coming.

LOL number 3, the biggest. You forgot this forum is international (edit: and is of course not allied with Israel).
George W. Bush and Tony Blair are equally terrorists. Where are the WMDs that justified the war brought upon iraqi people, pray tell me? And don't tell me they started a war to liberate Iraq, because the official reason for the war were WMDs, and they moved to war against UNs will. These are the facts, blabbering counts zero.

 

[onedreamer]

[...]the fact that the Palestinians are terrorists and torturers [...]

You claim this because you have met all Palestinians one by one? It's surprising that you're still alive to tell us this fact, this undeniable truth. I'd almost call for a miracle!!!

 

[civver_764]

George W. Bush and Tony Blair are equally terrorists. Where are the WMDs that justified the war brought upon iraqi people, pray tell me? And don't tell me they started a war to liberate Iraq, because the official reason for the war were WMDs, and they moved to war against UNs will. These are the facts, blabbering counts zero.

And then we ended up being the ones to use chemical weapons against the Iraqis. Isn't freedom great?

 

[TheLastOne36]

Wow, you know something is wrong with the opposition when you agree with Ayn Rand on something.

 

[HannibalBarka]

Israel has a better human rights record than the entire Arab world including Palestine. Based on this, it's hard to support Palestine against Israel. A two-state solution has been offered but it seems that all most Palestinians want is the land of Israel all to themselves with the infrastructure and economy built by Israelis minus the Israelis. In other words, they want the money and wealth built by others.

Where was Palestine before the establishment of the state of Israel? If time can be turned back and the Holocaust never happened and no Jews returned to Palestine, where would Palestine be? Not the modern, developed, liberal democracy that exists as Israel today. It will most likely look like Lebanon or Syria.

But alas, time cannot be turned back. The state of Israel was created fairly. Israel did win the wars fought against it by aggressors fairly. Israel has offered and was refused any viable peace deals.

Why should Israel and Israelis keep having to bend themselves over backwards?

So you are basically saying the Jews returned to Palestine because of the Haulocaust? They should have settled in Bavaria than ;-)

You really don't know what you're talking about. Here is a hint, go read those two books, and come back: "One Palestine Complete" and "The first Israelis" by Tom Segev.

 

[Arwon]

Wow, you know something is wrong with the opposition when you agree with Ayn Rand on something.

You like arguing with strawmen too?

 

[TheLastOne36]

You like arguing with strawmen too?

His points, not his debating swag.

 

[trader/warrior]

First off let me say its not about supporting a side, it's about supporting the solution you think is best. There are far more than two sides to this conflict.

What solutions have we seen from the self described "pro israel" people? There is the one where both sides magically set aside their differences and live in a single state. I am just as much for this solution as the two state solution but i think it improbable. But what I really find strange is that this is somehow pro-israel when Israel have never worked towards this goal, in fact Israeli policy and stated agenda is diametrically opposed to it. They even are, at least in word, for the two state solution.

What results would you expect if there was widespread support of Israel besides keeping the status quo and more settlements?

 

[Tani Coyote]

What solutions have we seen from the self described "pro israel" people? There is the one where both sides magically set aside their differences and live in a single state.

Not magically, just became mature, came to an understanding, and worked out treaties of mutual interest and benefit.

Improbable yes, but it could happen many decades down the line. Why can't the phenomenon that convinced Europeans to stop hating eachother and start working together find its way around the world eventually, after all?

I am just as much for this solution as the two state solution but i think it improbable. But what I really find strange is that this is somehow pro-israel when Israel have never worked towards this goal, in fact Israeli policy and stated agenda is diametrically opposed to it. They even are, at least in word, for the two state solution.

I support Israel per se simply because they are an ally and a liberal democracy. But, I'm also willing to recognise the grievances of the Arabs, and in turn propose a single state acceptable to all parties.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Improbable yes, but it could happen many decades down the line. Why can't the phenomenon that convinced Europeans to stop hating eachother and start working together find its way around the world eventually, after all?

So another 2 world wars is in order then?

 

[trader/warrior]

Not magically, just became mature, came to an understanding, and worked out treaties of mutual interest and benefit.

It's funny how deep down both sides want exactly the same thing with just differences in how to get there and what exact issues are the most dire... I simply think it is more likely to happen in a two state framework, as I also believe just about all diplomats and experts in the area, Israeli government, PA, EU and USA also think.

I think we can all agree that any solution requires that both sides:

became mature, came to an understanding, and worked out treaties of mutual interest and benefit.

Sorry if "magically" came off as mocking.