Getting Started

[Thalassicus]

The change to social policies is an idea from the Culture Calibration Mod thread. I actually intended to do this a month ago, but we did not have a function exposed in Lua to give free policies. I stumbled across it by accident today, it was added for the Mongol scenario!

Basically, the idea is policies are fun and the vanilla game severely limits the use of policies for all but 1 victory type. This gives everyone 6 more policies to play with, one per era. It fits in with my primary philosophy of these mods: more strategic flexibility = more enjoyable game.


The buff to happiness is due to a general feeling it's better to export luxuries or increase population instead of going for a happy golden age. Golden ages increase production and gold, two things you can do by settling more cities or letting your existing ones grow (and more population improves science as well). I've seen several other points made over the weeks about the underwhelming benefits of high happiness, but don't remember them all right now. +50% duration for happiness GAs makes it more valuable. I might even increase it to +100% if it still feels as worthless as vanilla.

A tricky thing to remember is you don't accumulate points to another happy golden age until the current one is completed. This is a tempering factor. If you were in a GA for 10 turns and out for 30 in vanilla, with +100% duration it's 20 and 30. The actual increase in proportional time spent in a GA is only +60% in this situation. It also has a larger impact with later GAs because 10/100->20/110 is more significant than 10/20->20/30.

In addition, this indirectly improves the Piety tree (Mandate of Heaven). I've been trying to figure out ways to buff this policy tree for some time.

 

[Txurce]

The change to social policies is from the Culture Calibration Mod thread. I actually intended to do this a month ago, but we did not have a function exposed in Lua to give free policies. I stumbled across it by accident today, it was added for the Mongol scenario!

Basically, the idea is policies are fun and the vanilla game severely limits the use of policies for all but 1 victory type. Policies were a major aspect of previous Civ games, but feel less so in this one.

The buff to happiness golden ages is due to a general feeling it's best to export luxuries or increase your population instead of going for a golden age. Golden ages increase production and gold, two things you can do by settling more cities or letting your existing ones grow (and more population improves science as well). I've seen several other points made over the weeks about the underwhelming benefits of high happiness. In addition, this indirectly improves the Piety tree (Mandate of Heaven). I've been trying to figure out ways to buff this policy tree for some time.

I'll read the culture threat, thanks.

Creating more benefit for high happiness makes sense. It's hard to significantly raise the total number of happy GAs, but making them longer will make them more attractive. Lowering the value of GP GAs also shifts the use of GPs to other, more trait-related purposes. When used in combination with Harder Free Tech, this should work out just right.

Interestingly, my two best science games were achieved with high pop (fertilizer!) and GAs (Persia).

 

[Seek]

@Seek
The Building_YieldChangesPerPop table's YieldType attribute uses a reference to Yields, which are . Culture is often handled differently (such as with Monasteries).

Huh. Wonder why? Seems silly not to include culture.

Conquest probability is something we should avoid, since it would provide a dramatic advantage to attackers (especially with the buffs defensive buildings got). Defenders would require an equally powerful siege force to recapture their cities.

I understand your logic here, but I did notice that in the GlobalDefines.xml there is a CITY_CAPTURE_DAMAGE_PERCENT which (if I understand it correctly) could be altered to make this more balanced. But I suppose we would just be opening a whole other can of worms if we go too far here.

The reason I keep thinking back to a UB that interacts with occupied cities is it would be truly unique. There's many buildings that deal with culture, but none influence the courthouse/puppet/burn dynamic. The only things I can think of which interact with this are Theocracy and Police State, two policies people rarely get.

Agree that a UB with this mechanic would be cool, but as Perkus noted it may not be the most fitting attribute for Japan - which for much of history was a decidedly inward-looking, non-expansionist nation. I think this is why a number of people have suggested other ideas for the Japanese UB. Additionally, with the proposed Shiro as it stands, TBH I think it would be a pretty underpowered UB. Again, I would suggest some other buff (even just a higher defense value). After all, if you are not out there conquering, it would be the same building everyone else has.

Re: GA/happiness buff - is it possible to give some other bonus for high happiness? (Say, +1G per TP when >50) More incentive here is definitely a good thing, and it'd probably help the happiness-obsessed AI probably more than the player on higher difficulties - also a good thing.



Kind of off topic, but: A modifier in GlobalDefines I'm wondering about is PLOT_VISIBILITY_RANGE; out of curiosity, do you know what exactly this affects?

 

[Txurce]

Thal,

I started a game with your development mod pack. I quit, using the auto save method.

When I came back the game wouldn't load, saying it requires both City Dev v.7 and v10, as well as Info Addict v.6 (which is enabled according to Mod Browser). Naturally I can't enable both v. 7 and v. 10, so I can't return to the game.

I also didn't see the iron icon on the top bar after researching bronze working.

And the City and Diplo Willard icons tend to crowd each other at the bottom of the screen.

As long as I'm tallying all this up, hovering over a hex takes longer than 1 or 1.5 seconds since I began using your mods a few days ago.

 

[Thalassicus]

In Balance - City Development (v 10).modinfo change MinCompatibleSaveVersion to 0. I don't know why, but when I tried setting that to 7 it didn't work as intended.

Iron won't appear on your top bar until you can actually use it, which requires Iron Working. Bronze Working simply reveals the resource.

Yeah, CityWillard icon isn't exactly ideally placed, I was going to mention that to the creator at some point.

I don't understand your last sentence. What takes longer?

Agree that a UB with this mechanic would be cool, but as Perkus noted it may not be the most fitting attribute for Japan - which for much of history was a decidedly inward-looking, non-expansionist nation

That's a good point. It's interesting to compare the history of Britain and Japan... both island nations yet developed very differently.

Hmm, I wonder who else I could give it to...

Darn thing is, a unique courthouse/castle would be perfect for the Japanese in earlier versions of civ, where courthouses were used to reduce corruption/equivalent. Now that it's been replaced by happiness... completely different concepts.

I want to somehow represent Japan's unique history of 600 years of military rule, unlike most other nations, and how it influenced its modern society. I'm not sure how though.

 

[Perkus]

And the City and Diplo Willard icons tend to crowd each other at the bottom of the screen.

Neither of you seem to realize that the Willard icons can be relocated to wherever you like through a button on the options screen? I have mine in the top right...

As long as I'm tallying all this up, hovering over a hex takes longer than 1 or 1.5 seconds since I began using your mods a few days ago.

I think Txurce's talking about the tooltip delay. I've seen this problem reported elsewhere. Apparently the tooltip delay (which is an item in the game options) can somehow get corrupted. They solved it by playing with it. Set it to 0, than back to where you want it. Try it a couple of times, if needed. Hopeful that will fix it.

 

[Seek]

I want to somehow represent Japan's unique history of 600 years of military rule, unlike most other nations, and how it influenced its modern society. I'm not sure how though.

As I see it, you could represent this in a number of ways: Add s to a military UB, increase worker speed, or give a production bonus. Or combine them; so, yet another suggestion

Shiro (castle replacement)
City Defense +20
+1 Happiness
+1 Production [or Food or Culture] from Sea Resources
4 GPT Maint. cost.

It would represent A. Military rule and B. Coastal dependency and result in C. Protectionism. I doubt it, but is it possible to add a +% to worker speeds within each city's radius? It could make for an interesting bonus here also..

 

[Txurce]

What do you guys think of this as something to be worked with?


http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...CS#post9910094

 

[jacktannery]

Thal, using your development mod (from the first post). Two quick questions.

Can I use this with the current culture calibration mod? There seems to be some overlap.

The smokehouse seems to have been deleted and replaced with the granary, but all the other new buildings are present. Was this intentional?

 

[Txurce]

Thal, using your development mod (from the first post).

The smokehouse seems to have been deleted and replaced with the granary, but all the other new buildings are present. Was this intentional?

I haven't returned to my game yet, but I recall the smokehouse being listed in my builds options almost right away.

 

[Thalassicus]

@Perkus
I don't see any settings for the willards on the options screen.

@Seek
One reason I'm hesitant to create resource bonuses is the developer's note in this file:

C:\Games\Steam\steamapps\common\sid meier's civilization v\Assets\Gameplay\Lua\AssignStartingPlots.lua

Spoiler :

-- Jon wanted a lot of changes to terrain composition for Civ5. These have
-- had the effect of making different parts of each randomly generated map
-- more distinct, more unique, but it has also necessitated a complete
-- overhaul of where civs are placed on the map and how resources are
-- distributed. The new placements are much more precise, both for civs
-- and resources. As such, any modifications to terrain or resource types
-- will no longer be "plug and play" in the XML. Terrain modders will have
-- to work with this file as well as the XML, to integrate their mods in to
-- the new system.

-- Some civs will be purposely placed in difficult terrain, depending on what
-- a given map instance has to offer. Civs placed in tough environments will
-- receive specific amounts of assistance, primarily in the form of Bonus food
-- from Wheat, Cows, Deer, Bananas, or Fish. This part of the new system is
-- very precisely calibrated and balanced, so be aware that any changes or
-- additions to how resources are placed near start points will have a
-- dramatic effect on the game, and could pose challenges of a sort that were
-- not present in the sphere of Civ4 modding.

-- The Luxury resources are also carefully calibrated. In a given game, some
-- will be clustered near a small number of civs (perhaps even a monopoly
-- given to one). Some will be placed only near City States, requiring civs
-- to go through a City State, one way or another, to obtain any instances of
-- that luxury type. Some will be left up to fate, appearing randomly in
-- whatever is their normal habitat. Yet others may be oversupplied or perhaps
-- even absent from a given game. Which luxuries fall in to which category
-- will be scrambled, to keep players guessing, and to help further the sense
-- of curiosity when exploring a new map in a new game.

-- Bob Thomas - April 16, 2010

The file's so insanely complicated (10,057 lines) I haven't attempted comprehending it yet, much less what's necessary to balance resources.

Still, I like the idea of +1 on fish and whales, interesting counterpart to Catherine's trait. I think I might go with that, +1, and no maintenance cost. A great leader to have a unique courthouse would have been Genghis Khan... but all three of his things are already fantastic. I wonder who else could have it?


@Txurce
Error in the link.

@jacktannery
I'd moved all the Language_en_US text entries out to a separate file but forgot to add a project Action for it. I've uploaded my latest build, which fixes this problem. I also fixed a bug in another file by temporarily commenting out the partisans/CS capture work I'm doing, since it was causing a problem when capitals are captured.

You can use the culture calibration mod if you want, I think it should be completely compatible with this one and shouldn't cause any real issues.

 

[Txurce]

In Balance - City Development (v 10).modinfo change MinCompatibleSaveVersion to 0. I don't know why, but when I tried setting that to 7 it didn't work as intended.

Iron won't appear on your top bar until you can actually use it, which requires Iron Working. Bronze Working simply reveals the resource.

Yeah, CityWillard icon isn't exactly ideally placed, I was going to mention that to the creator at some point.

I don't understand your last sentence. What takes longer?

Thanks for the ModInfo fix.

Yes, I found iron on my map, just not on the top bar.

I've now moved CityWillard to the top. DiploWillard can be copied to the top, but I can't lose the original one at the bottom.

I did mean the tooltip delay, and Perkus' fix worked. Thanks a lot.

One last question: how do you guys take screen snapshots? Full disclosure: I am a Mac guy playing on a PC for the first time ever with Civ5.

 

[Seek]

@Seek
One reason I'm hesitant to create resource bonuses is the developer's note in this file:

C:\Games\Steam\steamapps\common\sid meier's civilization v\Assets\Gameplay\Lua\AssignStartingPlots.lua



The file's so insanely complicated (10,057 lines) I haven't attempted comprehending it yet, much less what's necessary to balance resources.

Still, I like the idea of +1 on fish and whales, interesting counterpart to Catherine's trait. I think I might go with that, +1, and no maintenance cost. A great leader to have a unique courthouse would have been Genghis Khan... but all three of his things are already fantastic. I wonder who else could have it?

I'm not even sure what was trying to be said in that essay. Since resource distribution is not being modded, it could make the Shiro overpowered, I'm surmising? It did occur to me that the Shiro would potentially be OP when I suggested it, thus the high maintenance cost. Maybe 4GPT is too high but I think there should be *some* maintenance.

Re Courthouse UB:
Rome - Take out one of the UUs, the Ballista? Since you can't build the courthouse in Rome, it wouldn't be too OP.
China - Move effects of Paper Maker to Courthouse? Would probably need a nerf, though.
England - No Courthouse replacement, but give the effect to a cheaper Factory? Mass annexing in the Industrial Revolution might be fun.
America - No specific ideas here, but they could use a buff, imo.

I don't see any settings for the willards on the options screen.

Yes, there is a "move button" button for the willards under "options".

 

[Perkus]

@Perkus
I don't see any settings for the willards on the options screen.

Not the Civ5 options screen, if that's what you understood. The Willards each have their own options settings screen, selectable from a label along the bottom. It has buttons for "Move Window" and "Move Button" among many others. Also make sure you have the latest versions (v3 / v6) because he released a buggy one where the buttons overlapped at one point.

One last question: how do you guys take screen snapshots? Full disclosure: I am a Mac guy playing on a PC for the first time ever with Civ5.

Press "Print Scrn" key on the keyboard. Files appear in Documents/My Games/Civ 5/Screnshots folder.

 

[Thalassicus]

Ahh I didn't notice the options for willards are on the willard, not on the options window.

I updated the development version with several changes, here's the major ones:

: Late-game techs cost more, up to +50% for modern era.
: Most ships from Frigates onwards have Demolish
: +1 food for Fish with the Smokehouse. Fully improved Fish now total 4 2 4, compared to 5 1 1 post-Fertilizer riverside plains wheat. (Water tiles also get +1 with a Research Lab, but that's near the end of the game.)

@Seek
Naw it won't be OP because it's not available till Chivalry. The biggest risk about sea resources is doing ancient/classical changes, because coastal capitals can start with up to 4-6 fish and/or whales if the surrounding terrain is poor. (This is why I've waited so long to add fish to the Smokehouse list, but I'm certain now it won't be OP either.)

 

[Txurce]

I updated the development version with several changes

Which file are these changes in, and should I incorporate them into my current catchall playtest?

 

[Thalassicus]

Research, combat, and city development (respectively). I'm actually about to do a release.

 

[Tomice]

Thal, I thought a bit about the increased tech durations.

In Civ4, while a tech always needed a similar amount of time (lets say 20 turns), it felt much longer in the modern era, where you had to manage way more units and cities. I believe it was a part of lategame boredom.

I lack civ5 lategame experience and I understand 4 turns is ridiculously short. But keep the "realtime" duration between techs in mind, please.



Otherwise, I'm as always impressed by your work! Keep it coming!

I have a feeling that you left the area where everyone always agreed with your changes (things like the horsemen nerf). I believe changes like your recent heavy nerf to scientist might make some people disagree, but I'm sure very few here have a comparable insight into the game, so I still trust you, whereever you go Even if nerfed slingshots sometimes feel like less fun in the first moment.

 

[Perkus]

@Tomice:
Good point.

I went & checked that super-fast science saved game I had, and yes, I was indeed making Future Tech every 3 turns as I was about to finish my spaceship, and I had Gradual Research installed! I was getting +1673 science per turn, and Future Tech costs 4800 (4000 + 20%). I think I had only maybe 2-3 scientists working. In 1953AD. This was a small/Emperor? (L6)/Small Continents/Ottoman. Nothing outrageous happened, just had over a dozen very well developed cities, and another dozen or so puppets/startups. Fairly peaceful game, so I had time to develop well.

So even at +50%, that's 6000 for Future Tech, so that would only raise it from every 3 turns to every 4.

 

[Thalassicus]

@Tomice
Tech won't be dramatically slower, like Perkus pointed out. 20-30 turns in the ancient era (on epic speed) and 4-5 turns in the modern era (up from 3-4).

Science specialists are something I've had difficulty balancing. I had them at 2 in the first version of the old specialists mod, then changed back to 3 when there were a few protests, but pi-r8 stated they're still overpowered at 3, so I changed it back to 2. I guess I'll change it back to 3 again.

The thing is scientists / great scientists are so crazily overpowered in vanilla any changes to them have to be rather significant to bring them down to the same level as the others. The 200-turn Deity science victory example relied largely on scientist and great scientist spam. No other specialist/great person combo has such a dramatic effect on the game.