SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

Somewhere in that mess of posts last night, I asked about the Bahamas settler. Where is it supposed to go?
Click to expand...

I don't have to build it now, but I was planning on putting it near the spices and horses. Since we gave away our only horse to Gandhi for his Iron. And the spices will help with the happiness issues that our heavily whipped cities will need soon.

It also might get Crabs in its influence eventually for health too. Although I think we will need a 2nd city for that.

It will finish about the same time the galley gets back with the missionaries...

I'm home again so I'll try to see what I can come up with to get the 8? treb and maybe a mace or 2 to the war asap.

edit: Happy random Thursday to you non-Thanksgiving celebrators :)
 
Looking at the map, we have this sequence:
T+0 DoW, sea pinchers move 2 tiles SoD has 8 trebs
T+1 Sea pinchers land W, SoD moves to Shanghai-2SE
T+2 bombard + SoD to Shang-1SE gain 2 trebs
T+3 capture Shanghai (lose 4 trebs)
T+4 Sea pinchers move next to Beijing, SoD (w/8 trebs) leaves Shanghai gain 2 trebs
T+5 bombard, SoD moves next Beijing
T+6 capture Beijing (lose 6 trebs) -- cease fire gain 2 trebs
Click to expand...

If we lose 10+ units would we be able to cease fire?
 
Moscow HE finished T157, Treb T158, Treb T159, **GG** settled, Treb T160, Treb 161

Fish Treb start T156, 2 pop Treb T157, macemen start T158, T160 2 pop Macemen

Pigs T156 Treb started, T160 Treb 2 pop whip (keeps 2 scientists and 1 spy)

GP Farm T156 Treb started, T157 2 pop Treb

Rheims Treb started T156, T160 can 2 pop Treb and keep 3 pop

Could get WE/Pikeman from Orleans T162

That gives us 8 Treb and +1 Macemen (CI + cover perhaps?), +War Elephant, but only 3 of them have 5 xp, 2 have 3 xp, 3 0 xp

Haven't tested it yet. I will look at it tomorrow morning. Can optimize a little bit I'm sure.

Last Treb from Moscow gets to borders by turn T164 I believe with galley chain (hmm... might not be possible with galleys dropping other units off (which is missing a catapult I believe as well)

We need 5 galleys I think for a T164 date for last Treb from Moscow. Maybe 2 more galleys from Paris after trireme and a galley from Fish? (will temporarily make a fort
 
Test game update (off by 1 hammer in pigs, 2H were not put into Rheims forge like in real game)

Units locations and experience still have to be updated, tile improvements probably slightly off as well, Orleans has 5 turns of revolt in test, but only 4 in real game.
 

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babybluepants said:
As for secondary production, I simply don't get why we'd want unpromoted units at this stage.
Click to expand...
You're the one who freaking wants 500 zillion units... :p

Seriously, you and mdy made a good point about making sure all three cities fall like dominoes. That's easy if we're constantly producing units from several cities, but I prefer to use only Moscow for the ongoing unit flow, so that means we need a few more units upfront. It's just a one-time surge of units, totalling 3 trebs, so I don't see the need for barracks. The alternative is to delay the attack by 3t. We don't want to do that. As it is, Shanghai might be the only city to come out of revolt before we slingshot Biology. This war campaign is really starting to drag out with all these delays.

You guys are acting like AIs are actually smart or something. :cool:
 
You're the one who freaking wants 500 zillion units...

Seriously, you and mdy made a good point about making sure all three cities fall like dominoes. That's easy if we're constantly producing units from several cities, but I prefer to use only Moscow for the ongoing unit flow, so that means we need a few more units upfront. It's just a one-time surge of units, totalling 3 trebs, so I don't see the need for barracks. The alternative is to delay the attack by 3t. We don't want to do that. As it is, Shanghai might be the only city to come out of revolt before we slingshot Biology. This war campaign is really starting to drag out with all these delays.

You guys are acting like AIs are actually smart or something.
Click to expand...

The AI's may be idiots but they are capable of building an inconveniently large number of units whilst at war. I wasn't suggesting building a large number of extra maces just 2-3 which in the long run I think could make our war go much more smoothly. We can use fish to build units as well to help keep our strength up.

This would also allow us to move directly on to Rooservelt after Guangzhou falls. He has metal and is preparing for war so he will be likely to be a more formidable opponent than China. The delay to the China war should not be more than 2 turns, and the extra units should allow us to make up for this time over the course of the war.

I think we should steal philosophy from Gandhi as soon as we have a spy in galley city with a 50% discount, and then revolt to CS/pacifism immediately after we have whipped the trebs for our Shaghai assault.

We might want to found a city for the crabs next. if we continue to grow the capital we will shortly run into health issues in the capital.
 
Other thoughts:
We need a settler pump, very soon. Fish at pop7 can produce 1 settler every 3t. We'll need many cities rapidly. Before Communism.

If we're going to settle the spices/horses (where?), then we need to scrub first. If two workers go asap, then then settler is needed in 8t, so Bahamas can build an archer garrison first, or work on Moai. In any case, it should be timed carefully.

If we're planning to switch to CS soon, then Siberia, Pigs, and GP Farm need to concentrate on growing and not poprushing their happiness cap lower.

We already have enough EPs to steal Philo from Gandhi in 3t. Do we need to see his research? We can put two more turns of EPs into G to see his research or start on Mao already now.
 
Given that fish has a settled GG that city is probably better allocated to unit production.

Bahamas can build a settler in 5 turns (4 if we fire the spy) which should be enough. Bermuda can build additional settlers if we need more.

If we are sure we have enough EP's to steal Philosophy we may as well switch them to Mao now. What tech we get from Liberalism will be determined by when Gandhi discovers education in any case, and we can tell this from the tech trade screen. I can't see how knowing his research for a few turns will change this.
 
Stealing Philosphy opens Gandhi up to trading it with Roosy. That's the problem. Gandhi isn't a threat to beat us to LIberalism, but Roosy is.
 
More Analysis of Collateral Damage

This is not from testing but the actual odds given by BUFFY in a test game.
1. Notice in green that a non-Drill II archer needs five trebs to maximize its damage (5*8HPs=40HPs).
2. Notice in red the survival odds of CRI and CRII trebs versus CR0 trebs and CRII maces.
Code: 
Against Drill I archer
----------------------
       #units damaged    HPs damage    Total damage possible
       --------------  --------------  ---------------------
                       BaO  BaI  BaII
                       ---  ---  ----
catapu       6          9    10   13      45
trebuc       6          [COLOR="Green"]8[/COLOR]     9   12      [COLOR="green"]40[/COLOR]
cannon       7         14    16   21      60



Against Drill II archer
----------------------
       #units damaged    HPs damage    Total damage possible
       --------------  --------------  ---------------------
                       BaO  BaI  BaII
                       ---  ---  ----
catapu       6          7     8   10      45
trebuc       6          6     7    9      40
cannon       7         11    13   16      60



Survival odds against max damaged Drill I archer (treb: 3.6/6)
--------------------------------------------------------------
        CR0   CRI   CRII  CRIII
        ----  ----  ----  -----    
mace    53.9  59.5  [COLOR="Red"]67.0[/COLOR]  97.5
treb    [COLOR="Red"]64.2  85.9  95.7[/COLOR]

Conclusion: We minimize our unit losses with CRI and CRII trebs.
 
If we're going to settle the spices/horses (where?), then we need to scrub first. If two workers go asap, then then settler is needed in 8t, so Bahamas can build an archer garrison first, or work on Moai. In any case, it should be timed carefully.
Click to expand...

Isn't the non-fallout tile reasonably okay? In the center of that picture
 

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I agree that using trebs to wear the longbows down is clearly the most hammer efficient method of attack, but we still do need maces for the final assault and to defend against any potential counterattack. Moscow will be able to build a trebuchet every turn which should be enough to make up for the losses we would suffer. This would leave fish free to build extra maces for the war effort(after the initial trebs are built). If we do this we would not delay our initial attack on Shanghai, but would still have addittional maces to assist in the later phases of the China war/the war on America. In the long term we might want the odd xbow/pike to protect against America's maces/xbows/knights.


bcool's dot map looks good to me for our next 3 city sites.
 
Did a quick check - assuming we want 3 more GS from Pigs, we have the following options:

  • Keep growing as is --> Need Caste/Pac T165 --> 3rd GP @ T179 (1190 AD)
    - need extra farms on T165 & T167
  • Fire one spec and grow --> Need Caste/Pac T165 --> 3rd GP @ T178 (1180 AD) -36ep
    - need extra farms on T162 & T164
  • Fire all and max growth --> Need Caste/Pac T165 --> 3rd GP @ T176 (1160 AD) -24ep
    - need extra farms on T158 & T159
It's all rather marginal, as it's difficult to estimate the base research rate. I just don't think we want any base hammers or whipping there. Only food and specs.

Edit: this is assuming we only grow to 12, then hire all we can for the Lib push.

Edit2: need to also check GP Farm, I guess.
 
Man this is getting complex...

Okay so here is a test game focusing on just getting treb to Mao's borders asap.
Tried to follow this plan
Spoiler :
Moscow HE finished T157, Treb T158, Treb T159, **GG** settled, Treb T160, Treb 161

Fish Treb start T156, 2 pop Treb T157, macemen start T158, T160 2 pop Macemen

Pigs T156 Treb started, T160 Treb 2 pop whip (keeps 2 scientists and 1 spy)

GP Farm T156 Treb started, T157 2 pop Treb

Rheims Treb started T156, T160 can 2 pop Treb and keep 3 pop

Could get WE/Pikeman from Orleans T162

That gives us 8 Treb and +1 Macemen (CI + cover perhaps?), +War Elephant, but only 3 of them have 5 xp, 2 have 3 xp, 3 0 xp

Haven't tested it yet. I will look at it tomorrow morning. Can optimize a little bit I'm sure.

Last Treb from Moscow gets to borders by turn T164 I believe with galley chain (hmm... might not be possible with galleys dropping other units off (which is missing a catapult I believe as well)

We need 5 galleys I think for a T164 date for last Treb from Moscow. Maybe 2 more galleys from Paris after trireme and a galley from Fish? (will temporarily make a fort


With practice I might be able to do a bit better, but I'm getting close to what I can reasonably manage. Looks like getting SoD to the border is more like T166 or T167 with 8 treb (assuming we are counting the Treb I put on the galleys)

I'm pretty sure people will not be happy with the Pigs' pop in the test (only 7 at T164) whipping that treb there hurts our GP production if we are planning a switch to Caste/Pacifism T165
 

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7 trebs should be enough for the Shanghai assault, and further reinforcements from Moscow should be enough to continue the war, so why don't we skip the treb whip in pigs? As a GS is currently much more useful to us than a Great Spy I think we should fire the spy in pigs, and work a farm until CS is available.
 
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