Schooling the AI (Emperor Edition)
- Thread starter Rusten
- Start date
Look at the overview map from the first round.
There's a grass cow and a desert hill gold. Not the best of city spots but probably the best commerce spot for now.
Horses meant a second good tile to be worked by the pig city to the south.
Furthermore, this city would get its best (and only
) 2 tiles in its first culture ring so in the short term, it is more productive, gives more commerce, costs slightly less upkeep as it is closer. And lastly, it means Mysticism could be pushed back slightly.
If Rusten chooses to add a cottage or two for Bureaucracy, that city can start growing them for the capital.
The horses could be worked by the capital, true... but the capital already has a bunch of good tiles. Giving it 1 more hammer isn't going to change its life much (unless you're 1 hammer short for a worker
) in the short run while it still has no multiplier.
There's a grass cow and a desert hill gold. Not the best of city spots but probably the best commerce spot for now.
Horses meant a second good tile to be worked by the pig city to the south.
Furthermore, this city would get its best (and only
) 2 tiles in its first culture ring so in the short term, it is more productive, gives more commerce, costs slightly less upkeep as it is closer. And lastly, it means Mysticism could be pushed back slightly.If Rusten chooses to add a cottage or two for Bureaucracy, that city can start growing them for the capital.
The horses could be worked by the capital, true... but the capital already has a bunch of good tiles. Giving it 1 more hammer isn't going to change its life much (unless you're 1 hammer short for a worker
) in the short run while it still has no multiplier.Low commerce, high production, horses... maybe go horseback riding? Or would horse archers be too inefficient considering the distance, the jungle, availability of elephants, and that Charles might not get a chance to build his shrine? I might have answered my own question, but on the other hand I'm not too impressed with the land available to settle in the near future.
discopants
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2010
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- 28
Not wanting to hijack the thread but ... why would SE without the Pyramids ever be better than SE with the pyramids? The research boost to the economic model is so obvious that I assume its just a question of investing so many hammers at such an early stage?
dirtyparrot
Upholding Brannigan's Law
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2005
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- 1,841
^ I think that you've answered your own question.
I would probably make the next city the fish/cow. The food/production is kind of tough to pass up. The one thing to remember on lower levels is that the AI techs much slower. So waiting to trade for IW might not be worth if the AI doesn't get it until the late BCs or early ADs.
I would probably make the next city the fish/cow. The food/production is kind of tough to pass up. The one thing to remember on lower levels is that the AI techs much slower. So waiting to trade for IW might not be worth if the AI doesn't get it until the late BCs or early ADs.
huerfanista
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2006
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- 1,276
I'd go for the cow/gold/stone (but, then again, I'd be taking a shot at the 'mids ), although cow/fish should be soon as well. I keep having to remind myself that this is emperor - I'm so used to following Rustin's games on deity. 
Also, from monarch up I find the AIs always go for IW early. I rarely self research it. The question is, what's the best trade bait? On monarch I'd go for alpha, since the AIs are usually chasing religion/IW early on. On emperor I'm not so sure whether aesth or alpha is better.
), although cow/fish should be soon as well. I keep having to remind myself that this is emperor - I'm so used to following Rustin's games on deity. Also, from monarch up I find the AIs always go for IW early. I rarely self research it. The question is, what's the best trade bait? On monarch I'd go for alpha, since the AIs are usually chasing religion/IW early on. On emperor I'm not so sure whether aesth or alpha is better.
srad
King
Did a quick shadow till around t50. Some questions came up (no spoilers I think):
1. What are your wonder plans?
Oracle (->MC), Pyramids? What about the GLH? There will be some coastal cities. Research is low... Coastal economy with GLH and Colossus?
2. Next city maybe on the grassland hill to the west with fish and corn in the second ring? Can share corn and mines with the capital. Less maintenance, instant food. No need to hurry the cow spot.
1. What are your wonder plans?
Oracle (->MC), Pyramids? What about the GLH? There will be some coastal cities. Research is low... Coastal economy with GLH and Colossus?
2. Next city maybe on the grassland hill to the west with fish and corn in the second ring? Can share corn and mines with the capital. Less maintenance, instant food. No need to hurry the cow spot.
Better than trying to build up a few cities with high population, which works better on deity. And how do cottages slow down expansion?better than what (I won't talk about the fact that cottages slow down expansion greatly...)?
What works in deity should at least works at lower levels. Even better, you should be able to win earlier in lower levels. I fail to see how cottages will help more in levels where the games are shorter and with smaller maintenance.
Truth is that the cottage spam is easier and will work whatever (basically) you do.
... but let's see how this game plays out
Of course any strategy that can beat deity will also beat lower levels, but that doesn't mean that it's optimal. For example, the optimal strategy on settler is to wander around with your settler to pick up extra huts. But I just meant that, on emperor and below, maintenance is low enough that you can spam cities everywhere, fillling them with cottages pacified by hereditary rule units, and make good money. On deity the maintenance costs of that are too high. You're also doing a lot more trading and a lot less self-research, which makes bulbs a lot better.
Cow+Fish looks like the best site for city #3. Fish is in second ring so probably want myst before fishing to get started on monument.
Unless you settle cow+gold site 1W of gold it will be terribly dry. 1W gives you too lakeside grass at least (although one is jungled). The rest of the north is pretty much a wasteland, although scouting is incomplete.
How about make a stretch and go for Rice/horse/gem/incense in Charlie's front yard? Need IW for gems, but from the looks of it you need IW (and calendar) no matter what. Without the luxury of better scouting, I will guess that the next best city site is HRE capitol. I would consider HAs rather than waiting for ellies.
Unless you settle cow+gold site 1W of gold it will be terribly dry. 1W gives you too lakeside grass at least (although one is jungled). The rest of the north is pretty much a wasteland, although scouting is incomplete.
How about make a stretch and go for Rice/horse/gem/incense in Charlie's front yard? Need IW for gems, but from the looks of it you need IW (and calendar) no matter what. Without the luxury of better scouting, I will guess that the next best city site is HRE capitol. I would consider HAs rather than waiting for ellies.
What kossin said about why I went south for the first city.
One more point to add to his list is how few worker turns the city requires compared to settling north first.
I would have to choose whether to road for trade routes or hook up horses and there would be a lot of moving back and forth in rough terrain. At the time of the upcoming city I will have more flexibility and time for worker turns.
Not decided what to use for trade bait. Aesthetics is out I think (no marble and want to war). I'm guessing it will be either Alphabet (myself) or HBR for Alphabet.
I don't think I will build the Pyramids here (or any other early wonder). With ivory/horses I will have my empire focused on war at the time when the Pyramids are finished -- I won't be running (m)any scientists. I'd much rather whip my pop and capture Charlemagne's cities, he's located in the prime spot.
I will have a punt at the Pyramids if they aren't built at a late stage and it won't slow me down much, but as it stands taking Charlemagne's cities looks more fruitful.
I will settle for the gold+cow eventually. It will be a low pop city, but it will bring a very good boost short term. It will bring in +1 happy, commerce from working gold, and has plenty of forests that can be chopped into units.
Rice/horse/gem:
Worried about jungle spread over rice before I can stop it.
It's *very* low on commerce in the short term.
I'm planning on using the rice for the incense+gold.
It's Charlemagne's backyard so there's no urgency in settling it.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Plan is to settle cow+fish now and then gold once I have a chariot or two (I may go fish to the east of capital first).
The goal here is to squeeze out as much as possible in the short term. That means settling close by and quick commerce is the priority. I can't afford to settle cities that will be good in 75 turns but bad now.
One more point to add to his list is how few worker turns the city requires compared to settling north first.
I would have to choose whether to road for trade routes or hook up horses and there would be a lot of moving back and forth in rough terrain. At the time of the upcoming city I will have more flexibility and time for worker turns.
I'd go for the cow/gold/stone (but, then again, I'd be taking a shot at the 'mids
srad said:
Not decided what to use for trade bait. Aesthetics is out I think (no marble and want to war). I'm guessing it will be either Alphabet (myself) or HBR for Alphabet.
I don't think I will build the Pyramids here (or any other early wonder). With ivory/horses I will have my empire focused on war at the time when the Pyramids are finished -- I won't be running (m)any scientists. I'd much rather whip my pop and capture Charlemagne's cities, he's located in the prime spot.
I will have a punt at the Pyramids if they aren't built at a late stage and it won't slow me down much, but as it stands taking Charlemagne's cities looks more fruitful.
Definitely considering horse archers instead of elephants here. I will have to scout Charlemagne's cities -- if his capital is on flat terrain I will strike sooner than if not.babar said:
LuCiver said:
I will settle for the gold+cow eventually. It will be a low pop city, but it will bring a very good boost short term. It will bring in +1 happy, commerce from working gold, and has plenty of forests that can be chopped into units.
Rice/horse/gem:
Worried about jungle spread over rice before I can stop it.
It's *very* low on commerce in the short term.
I'm planning on using the rice for the incense+gold.
It's Charlemagne's backyard so there's no urgency in settling it.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Plan is to settle cow+fish now and then gold once I have a chariot or two (I may go fish to the east of capital first).
The goal here is to squeeze out as much as possible in the short term. That means settling close by and quick commerce is the priority. I can't afford to settle cities that will be good in 75 turns but bad now.
Round begins with the southern warrior beating the barbarian bear in open terrain! 
I assumed he would die.
Cow+fish is settled 2160 BC and will be connected shortly after.
Workers then prepare for fish+ivory site. Don't be afraid to work coastal tiles in starts like this. Research is the bottleneck here, so even if the tile itself is of poor yield it gets you to those crucial places sooner.
Charlie is being a darling and settling on the gems on a hill.
Ok, maybe he *really* needed the happiness right away.
I eventually decide to put my cow+gold city 1E of the cows, but I'm still torn about this. What eventually swayed me is access to stone in the 3rd ring for the future and it picks up another grassland.
Research went myst-fishing-pottery-writing-alphabet (present).
Nobody had writing at the time I finished it so I'm definitely not gambling on waiting for the AI here. Furthermore there are 2 religious nuts here so there's a good chance for early monarchy.
Some cities put hammers into barracks for later (nothing else useful).
Aachen is a fantastic city and it's not on a hill (neither is Prague).
Overview:
Library in chengdu is only a placeholder. Whipping the monument at 2 is better than waiting for the library. I will skip the library entirely there until after the war (whip-whip).
Beijing will get a worker -- not a settler. [edit: Perhaps settler is best to be ready to hook up iron in case I don't have it within my borders]
Gold will be hooked up shortly -- say 5-6 turns.
Trade network with Charlie shortly.
And before anybody gets their panties in a bunch -- unhappy citizens don't eat food when building a worker/settler.
I assumed he would die.
Cow+fish is settled 2160 BC and will be connected shortly after.
Workers then prepare for fish+ivory site. Don't be afraid to work coastal tiles in starts like this. Research is the bottleneck here, so even if the tile itself is of poor yield it gets you to those crucial places sooner.
Spoiler :
Charlie is being a darling and settling on the gems on a hill.
Ok, maybe he *really* needed the happiness right away.
Spoiler :
I eventually decide to put my cow+gold city 1E of the cows, but I'm still torn about this. What eventually swayed me is access to stone in the 3rd ring for the future and it picks up another grassland.
Spoiler :
Research went myst-fishing-pottery-writing-alphabet (present).
Nobody had writing at the time I finished it so I'm definitely not gambling on waiting for the AI here. Furthermore there are 2 religious nuts here so there's a good chance for early monarchy.
Some cities put hammers into barracks for later (nothing else useful).
Aachen is a fantastic city and it's not on a hill (neither is Prague).
Spoiler :
Overview:
Spoiler :
Library in chengdu is only a placeholder. Whipping the monument at 2 is better than waiting for the library. I will skip the library entirely there until after the war (whip-whip).
Beijing will get a worker -- not a settler. [edit: Perhaps settler is best to be ready to hook up iron in case I don't have it within my borders]
Gold will be hooked up shortly -- say 5-6 turns.
Trade network with Charlie shortly.
And before anybody gets their panties in a bunch -- unhappy citizens don't eat food when building a worker/settler.
Excellent remark, there is a lot of information like this that pops here and there from time to time on the forum but it gets buried within days. Newer players do not find those tips and are always puzzled when someone else says it's a thing "everyone knows" from lurking for several years.
I know there's a tips thread but it's so vast and outdated (a good part of it), not many people are going to bother with it.
Could be an interesting project to try to make a big collection of all these little things.
Nicely done, looking forward to the proper settling of gems.
(which makes me think, one could improve tiles under jungle prior to knowledge of IW:
- settle on top of resource
- get city razed by barbs
- resettle and improve now jungle-less tile
)
Sorry for the big side-track here
One mistake I made this game is not to send out a scouting work boat. Should always be done on fractal. If there's someone overseas I've missed out.
I finish Alphabet 750 BC and trade a bit with Charlie (med for writing and alphabet for IW).
Iron pops up in the cow+gold city.
Research priesthood after seeing that Hammurabi has adopted Hereditary Rule. I trade for monarchy with Alphabet shortly after and adopt HR immediately.
Unfortunately didn't get to trade for sailing until 550 BC (and had to give monarchy!!)
Research went currency after (part)-monarchy. Those 2 are the money techs early on -- they allow huge growth.
Didn't get to trade for Mathematics or HBR, but I guess that is to be expected.
275 BC I notice nobody has built the GLH. I figure it's worth a punt.
After 2 chops I get it 100 BC. Doesn't affect much here, but still worth the 200 hammers
Started making some units 250 BC.
I find myself ready to DoW on Charlie 100 AD. In hindsight I overestimated the protective emperor AI. I waited too long to attack -- I didn't need the elephants.
I am ahead in power before the war starts. That's a sign that I've waited too long. Being more ruthless will give a better game here.
I capture Augsburg and Goth quite easily and reach a bombarded Aachen 350 AD.
Before catapults:
After catapults (lost 1).
War is so easy in SP, I need to stop playing pitboss/MP. No counter-siege or anything, it's a joke. Is this improved a lot in the better AI mod? If so I may give it a go.
I haven't been able to trade for a single resource which is annoying. Would be even more annoying if I was in representation.
Fun fact: Pyramids still not built.
Got the economy going with scientists (after writing) -> build research (after alphabet) -> build wealth (after currency).
Focusing on growth with HR police (warriors).
I've finished CS, but made the standard mistake of forgetting to revolt. Will get on that when I continue.
Unlocked the HE so a quick trip to literature sounds good.
Saves mid-set available on demand (this round was pretty long).
I finish Alphabet 750 BC and trade a bit with Charlie (med for writing and alphabet for IW).
Iron pops up in the cow+gold city.
Research priesthood after seeing that Hammurabi has adopted Hereditary Rule. I trade for monarchy with Alphabet shortly after and adopt HR immediately.
Unfortunately didn't get to trade for sailing until 550 BC (and had to give monarchy!!)
Research went currency after (part)-monarchy. Those 2 are the money techs early on -- they allow huge growth.
Didn't get to trade for Mathematics or HBR, but I guess that is to be expected.
275 BC I notice nobody has built the GLH. I figure it's worth a punt.
After 2 chops I get it 100 BC.
Doesn't affect much here, but still worth the 200 hammersStarted making some units 250 BC.
I find myself ready to DoW on Charlie 100 AD. In hindsight I overestimated the protective emperor AI. I waited too long to attack -- I didn't need the elephants.
I am ahead in power before the war starts. That's a sign that I've waited too long. Being more ruthless will give a better game here.
Spoiler :
I capture Augsburg and Goth quite easily and reach a bombarded Aachen 350 AD.
Before catapults:
Spoiler :
After catapults (lost 1).
Spoiler :
War is so easy in SP, I need to stop playing pitboss/MP. No counter-siege or anything, it's a joke. Is this improved a lot in the better AI mod? If so I may give it a go.
I haven't been able to trade for a single resource which is annoying. Would be even more annoying if I was in representation.
Fun fact: Pyramids still not built.
Got the economy going with scientists (after writing) -> build research (after alphabet) -> build wealth (after currency).
Focusing on growth with HR police (warriors).
I've finished CS, but made the standard mistake of forgetting to revolt.
Will get on that when I continue.Unlocked the HE so a quick trip to literature sounds good.
Saves mid-set available on demand (this round was pretty long).
(which makes me think, one could improve tiles under jungle prior to knowledge of IW:
- settle on top of resource
- get city razed by barbs
- resettle and improve now jungle-less tile
)
Sorry for the big side-track here
I can think of a couple of bizarre situations where that could prove useful, but hardly something you should always consider.
vranasm
Deity
well... to me it's a big feat to get 6 cities at T79.
Did you chop out those settlers mostly or were there some whips involved?
I see you went only for 1 GS and then probably avoided generating gpp's at all?
the capital at 300AD is monster...
Did you chop out those settlers mostly or were there some whips involved?
I see you went only for 1 GS and then probably avoided generating gpp's at all?
the capital at 300AD is monster...
RRRaskolnikov
Goldfish
in deity you have high maint, so u stick the cities u can support (pre COL/currency) then u grab what is left or what gandhi has lol. In other levels, you can have more. Though the principle is the same. Expand as fast as u possibly can. And grow your cities! (in order to grow your economy whichever improvements you might be using). This is general, nothing related to improvement choice.It is the worst improvement while building settlers/workers. Self explaining.
You should be able to reach writing (the most needed tech to avoid crashing the eco... ) and then classical big ones (again COL/Currency/monarchy...) without cottages (or a few, like Rusten did - though this map is extrem in that it had only 5 riverside tiles close to the starting position and no money luxuries).
The thing is cottages should be worked early on to be productive, and it's precisaly the moment you don't want to be working them.
Yes
(in the same fashion, i would be close to say that the mids are better in low levels since there the raw beaker output is crucial, since you get no trades)@Rusten: next game, ivory forbidden
Cheers
Some early game things to notice:
Identify the map
By that I mean figure out what is the bottleneck/troublesome part of it. For simplicity let's narrow it down to builds/economy and keep AI/diplomacy separate now.
This game was clearly low on commerce which everyone identified. In such situations you need to be careful with when and where you settle. It is crucial to reach writing and alphabet to be able to power out of increasing maintenance. When I said that I needed to watch out for "crashing my economy" I did not mean going on strike or getting negative income. What I meant was delaying the big techs by many turns.
If you swap the corn in the capital with gems I would play very differently. I would be able to expand more freely and still reach the important techs in a timely manner. Here I did not have this luxury so I was forced to squeeze out commerce from hills.
It can be tempting to keep settling cities until you reach 0 gold, but this can have a very detrimental effect if the cities are not exceptional. While working cottages ensure that you won't go on strike it will take a long time for them to get you to the "big" techs (Alphabet, Currency, Monarchy). Once you have reached these "threshold" techs there's a while before the next crucial one -- meaning that you can afford to let the economy slide a bit again. Furthermore, you now have tools to make almost all cities productive instantly by producing research/wealth. In this game I chose to prepare for war, but if there were more good cities available you would see me expanding a bunch after currency.
Some might say I've been running a CE here, but that would be misleading. What kick-started everything here was hammer economy (which I've now transitioned out of). Now I am bureaucracy based (if only I could remember to adopt it).
2: Population.
When you expand in the BCs, try to think of your empire as # of population points -- not as number of cities. It is far more useful to have 20 pop divided over 4 cities than 12 over 6 (assuming there are decent tiles to work). Always grow your cities to the happiness cap and take advantage of hereditary rule -- you want double-digit cities in the BCs if health allows it. Growing early helped bring me a 50 base commerce and 22 base hammers capital now.
City examples:
If I had expanded more I would not have gotten monarchy as fast, which would mean much slower growth -> less cottages matured and the city would not look like this until much later.
Identify the map
By that I mean figure out what is the bottleneck/troublesome part of it. For simplicity let's narrow it down to builds/economy and keep AI/diplomacy separate now.
This game was clearly low on commerce which everyone identified. In such situations you need to be careful with when and where you settle. It is crucial to reach writing and alphabet to be able to power out of increasing maintenance. When I said that I needed to watch out for "crashing my economy" I did not mean going on strike or getting negative income. What I meant was delaying the big techs by many turns.
If you swap the corn in the capital with gems I would play very differently. I would be able to expand more freely and still reach the important techs in a timely manner. Here I did not have this luxury so I was forced to squeeze out commerce from hills.
Spoiler :
It can be tempting to keep settling cities until you reach 0 gold, but this can have a very detrimental effect if the cities are not exceptional. While working cottages ensure that you won't go on strike it will take a long time for them to get you to the "big" techs (Alphabet, Currency, Monarchy). Once you have reached these "threshold" techs there's a while before the next crucial one -- meaning that you can afford to let the economy slide a bit again. Furthermore, you now have tools to make almost all cities productive instantly by producing research/wealth. In this game I chose to prepare for war, but if there were more good cities available you would see me expanding a bunch after currency.
Some might say I've been running a CE here, but that would be misleading. What kick-started everything here was hammer economy (which I've now transitioned out of). Now I am bureaucracy based (if only I could remember to adopt it
).2: Population.
When you expand in the BCs, try to think of your empire as # of population points -- not as number of cities. It is far more useful to have 20 pop divided over 4 cities than 12 over 6 (assuming there are decent tiles to work). Always grow your cities to the happiness cap and take advantage of hereditary rule -- you want double-digit cities in the BCs if health allows it. Growing early helped bring me a 50 base commerce and 22 base hammers capital now.
City examples:
Spoiler :
If I had expanded more I would not have gotten monarchy as fast, which would mean much slower growth -> less cottages matured and the city would not look like this until much later.
I am curious as to the decision to refrain from a HA rush. Was it because it would cripple your economy in this case, and even if successful, lead to a worse long term game?
Pretty impressed by the size of Beijing. I don't think I use HR to its full potential...
I felt it was too risky to attack a protective civ (could already see some spears and cg2 archers) without siege. 2 out of 4 cities were on a hill and the capital had 60& cultural defense early. Those rushes can go wrong very quickly. I think I made the right call skipping this.
What I should've done was to make axes/swordsman before construction and then attack once I had whipped up a few cats. The elephants were simply overkill. They are also very expensive in hammers.
What I should've done was to make axes/swordsman before construction and then attack once I had whipped up a few cats. The elephants were simply overkill. They are also very expensive in hammers.
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