An Ancient India Scenario

7ronin

海軍少佐
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Greetings Barbarians, you people of no culture and fewer manners, who live on the edges of the great world. Know that I am Nicanor of Pella. I am not the most renowned of that name nor am I the greatest of that famous city but I have received riches and rewards enough for a lifetime. Have I not married a great lady, Artazana, who waited upon Roxana, Queen of all the World? Did not the God King Alexander, himself, praise me for my bravery? All have I achieved in the service of my lord Ptolemy the Savior. I followed my lord in the wars of Alexander on those great campaigns which took us to the ends of the Earth, but was there not always another mountain and another river before us. Indeed, might there be kingdoms and realms which we did not count?

Now that I am an old man who has long since laid the sword aside, I may pursue the wont of old men which is to recount their virtues and their follies that younger men may be guided by the former and chastened by the latter. But then, when has a young man ever listened to an old? My grandson has suggested (or perhaps it is his caviling termagant of an Egyptian wife who has suggested it) that I take up residence in the Great Library here in this wondrous city of Alexandria that I may draw inspiration from my surroundings.

I will not tell you of things you already know or have heard. Instead, I will tell you of things strange and wonderful from a world still unknown to us. Did I not say that there were kingdoms uncounted? Indeed. I was present once when Lord Ptolemey received an embassy from one such kingdom. This kingdom lay beyond the great river valley in the east. Such were the rumors of its size that it might have been not a kingdom at all but an empire – and at that an empire to rival the one that we had forged.

There were ten ambassadors, tall beardless men of great dignity, with bronze skin. Their clothing and adornments were such that the Great King of Persia would have wept with envy. They brought much treasure and many fabulous gifts. Our eyes widened in surprise, we who had found the great treasure of Persepolis. What manner of king could command such men to do his bidding; men who could be kings in their own right. They told us that their king’s name was Ashoka…

Thus begins

banner1ap.jpg

The rise of Ashoka and the Mauryan Empire and the spread of Indian Buddhism

Blue Monkey and I are both interested in things Asian. We have discussed the dearth of Asian scenarios/mods in general and that of Ancient India in particular. We think that a scenario about Ashoka might fill an interesting void with an exciting and playable game; a game that has not too large a map and not too many civs and is not so ambitious that it might never be completed. Thus this scenario proposal. We view this as a collaborative effort. You can read an overview of Ashoka here

Blue Monkey, when he is not fuctioning as either a moderator or a guru of things Steam Punk, is a superb map maker. He has agreed to do the map. We view this as a collaborative effort. With one exception (the Ratha chariot) all of the necessary units already exist as do many of the potential leaderheads, wonders, and so forth. But we need some help. Feel free to join in.

Index:

Resources: here (post #143)- Dec 25, 2011
Civs: here (post #46) - Jan 3, 2012
Unit List: here (post #168) - Dec 19, 2011
BIQ: here (post#139) - Dec 20, 2011
Improvements: here (post #187) - Dec 25, 2011
Wonders: here (post #173) - Jan 1, 2012
Advancements (Techs): here (post #172) - Dec 25, 2011
Civ Attributes [Traits]: here (post #228) - Jan 15, 2012
 
Great to see some India modding love. Definitely need more. Here's my initial 2 paisa:

Assuming you want to focus on Ashoka and not deal with the rules of Chandragupta and Bindusara (which would be quite different beasts but much fun too), I'd recommend structuring the scenario into 3 eras, or at least 3 phases:

1 - War of Succession between Ashoka and his brothers:

Starting at 273BC (deah of Bindusara), you could have a few factions battling it out for control of the Mauryan empire as Bindusara left it, with particular focus on some prime spots - say Pataliputra, Ujjain, Mathura, Taxila and, most importantly, Bihar. Should be tough but Ashoka gets a leg up of course and, once this is won by whoever, they then get access to all kinds of hardcoreness to lead onto era/phase two. The other kingdoms in south India are growing rich and cultural while this contest goes on.

This phase may be somewhat controversial with players and a little bit tricky to implement properly - the losing factions would have to die off completely. But I reckon it'd make things much more interesting and educational too. If the game started after Ashoka's coronation and him in full control of the Mauryan Empire, it could turn into a cake walk. If this proves to difficult or controversial, you could start off with Chandragupta's challenges, which could also be good fun.

2 - Conquest of India

A good old warmongering chapter. Heavy contests with Kalinga, Cholas, Pandyas and Cheras. Got to include Sinhala there too.

3 - Spreading of Buddhism

Probably requires a change of government (or religion if you want to implement that) and the building of culture improvements (stupas) and wonders, eventually leading onto victory. Crucial resources for the building of these monuments (maybe Tamil workers or the like) can lay in the hands of the southern kingdoms, both to encourage Ashoka to go there and to allow them to properly contest a victory and provide a challenge.

I think it'd be more interesting to make the ultimate victory be something like a Cultural (or maybe even Wonder) Victory. No story of Ashoka is complete without the relinquishing of war and the turn to ahimsa.

Other thoughts:
- Get the University of Taxila in there as a wonder.
- Pearl fishing as a resource / trade contest in the south.
- Ironworking's going to be important.
- Culture buildings like Hindu statues and temples and stupas.
- Would be good to represent poetry through say wonders.
 
Thank you, Rambuchan. Very nice to hear from you; especially since you are a modder of the first water and an expert on things Southwest Asian! I am thinking of starting with Chandragupta: more play balance and more of challenge for Magadha. Most of the civs seem to be clustered in the Ganges plain. There would have to be some device to simulate the appearance of Ashoka to give Magadha a boost. We will have to see what Blue Monkey thinks.

The civs thus far:
See follow on post.

Governments:
Hindu Monarchy
Hindu Republic
Buddhist Monarchy
Buddhist Republic
Buddhist Tyranny
Jainist Republic
Jainist Monarchy
Tribal Kingdom

I haven't decided whether to set them this way or to have the religious elements as cultural groups or some combination.

Wonders:
Buddist Edicts - allows building of Ashoka Pillars
Special Ministry of Censors -
Silk Route -
Spice Route -
Bo Tree - preplaced wonder
University of Taxila

Resources:
Pepper
Iron
Elephants
Pearl Fishing

Cities:
Not many city names seem to be known beyond those of the capital city and perhaps a few others. Ancient names for those and modern names for the rest?

Units:
There doesn't seem to be much difference between the armies of the period. They all pretty much seem limited to spearmen, archers, a few elite units, chariots, and in some cases elephants.

Finally, Michael Wood has described Ashoka's empire as "A moralizing nanny state in which you could think or believe what you wanted, but you had to do what you were told."
 
Well, the ratha project should be speeding up relatively soon.
I'm slooowly beginning work on an Elephant from a free model I downloaded thanks to Supa. I could adequate one to your needs. Need roof? A siege engine on top of it? just ask.

Also,
Spoiler :
RAMBUCHAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!


P.S. I can also do buildings and stuff if you need me to.
 
Well, the ratha project should be speeding up relatively soon.
I'm slooowly beginning work on an Elephant from a free model I downloaded thanks to Supa. I could adequate one to your needs. Need roof? A siege engine on top of it? just ask.

P.S. I can also do buildings and stuff if you need me to.

I will keep your kind offer in mind for a later time. I don't want to divert you from the Ratha project. When it is completed, there are many (myself included) who will sing your praises to the heavens! How are things down there in the southern half of the world? Still studying law?
 
Unfortunately yes, in order to become a translator/interpreter/wha'evah I have to know the Civil, Penal, Family, etc. codes. :cringe:
 
I'm under strict orders to spend more time in the big blue room with the bright light. That said any scenario including India is near & dear to me. This one will get a huge chunk of my effort. I'll be going back & digesting the opening few posts before making any specific comments. But for now - I will definitely be happy to make a map. In addition to the tech icons already made for Anno Domini & Yoda Power's Asia scenario there's plenty more raw material laying around. I'll see what I can do about a banner for the OP.
 
I'm under strict orders to spend more time in the big blue room with the bright light. That said any scenario including India is near & dear to me. This one will get a huge chunk of my effort. I'll be going back & digesting the opening few posts before making any specific comments. But for now - I will definitely be happy to make a map. In addition to the tech icons already made for Anno Domini & Yoda Power's Asia scenario there's plenty more raw material laying around. I'll see what I can do about a banner for the OP.

We are going to have a lot of fun. We might even learn something.
 
Himilaya Culture Group
1, Kirat [Nepal] King Sthunko

Northern Culture Group
2. Magadha King Ashoka
3. Kuru
4. Kashi
5. Kuru
6. Kosala
7. Panchala
8. Kalinga
9. Virijji
10. Anga
11. Vatsa
12. Chetiya
13. Assaka
14. Avanti
15. Matysa
16. Vatsa
17. Shurasena

Southern Culture Group
18. Cholas
19. Pandyas
20. Anuradhapura [Ceylon] King Devanampiya Tissa

Western Culture Group
21. Kamboja
22. Gandahara

Trade Group
23. Arabia
24. China
25. Europe
26. Spice Islands

Reserve Team
27. Tibet?
28. Bactria?
 
The four trade civs are one city civs located in the four corners of the map (or there about). The "playing" civs may have to find them. Their purpose is to function as trade destinations. Each one will have a preplaced wonder which produces a desirable resource and accepts a trade resource.

Arabia; wonder: Arabian Market - produces incense
Europe; wonder: Persian Bazaar - produces glass? wine?
Spice Islands; wonder: Indonesian Bazaar - produces spice
China; wonder: Chinese Market - produces silk

A problem which occurs to me is how to keep the other civs from conquering them.
 
Place 999.999.0 (Immobile) units on each as a garrison. Prevent them from having Settlers. They won't expand.

Have the Hephtalites or the Yue-She as a non-playable civ that breaks in from the north.

What ails you, Blue? Here summer will mean that it'll be All my Children playing fitba in the daytime Dallas modding at night.
 
I've been thinking about this. I reckon going with the Mahajanapadas as the starting point might be 'faithful' and 'purist', but I fear a number of things here:

(1) It's really difficult to know much about them, owing to the paucity of historical records about them.
(2) There isn't much difference between them really and the c.600BC period wasn't all that interesting if we're being really honest. This runs the risk of ending up with a fairly bland game experience for the scenario.
(3) There's that problem of having the Mauryans emerge from the Magadha kingdom and they are the ones it seems you want this to be about really.
(4) We'd be passing up the opportunity to jump in at a MUCH more interesting date for, what I believe to be, a truly fascinating and dynamic scenario, which also offers a nice hook of interest into the game and region for those not familiar with it or interested already.

So, this is probably how I would do it...

Time Period: 327 - 232 BC

Civs: Letter in [*] indicates their culture grouping, as listed below.

1 – Macedonians (or Macedonian Satraps) [M]
2 – Pauravas [D]
3 – Taxila [D]
4 – Kamboja
5 – Bactrians?
6 – Nandas [G]
7 – Mauryans [G]
8 – Kalinga [D]
9 – Assaka / Ashmaka [D]
10 – Cheras [T]
11 – Pandayas [T]
12 – Cholas [T]
13 – Pallavas [T]
14 – Anuradhapura
15 – Shakya

Culture Groups:
Gangetic
Deccan (incl. those in northwest to get appropriate AI behaviour)
Tamil / Dravidian
Backwater
Macedonian

Map and Civ Placement on it:
- Size of text indicates relative power, more or less.
- Mauryans start where the M is, but move west.




Key contests on the map:

Control of the Indo-Gangetic Plains:
Largely fought out between the Nandas and Mauryans. Sikander in there with a chance too if he can cross the Indus and be victorious. Ashmaka, Kalinga and Pauravas in with a chance here too.

The Tamil Contest:
Supremacy of the south is fought out between the Cholas, Pallavas, Pandyas and Cheras. This contest does however distract them from growing powerful enough to face the Mauryans in the late game (or whoever else is victorious up north and then heads south).

Kalinga War:
Fought between Kalinga and ideally the Mauryans. Hard and bloody war of attrition fought for a key resource there. Kalinga no pushover here at all.

Eastern Persia, Pakistan & Afghanistan:
Sprawling area of land begging to be ruled by just one. Fought out between Sikander, Kamboja, Bactrians mainly. But Pauravas in there with a chance and then, later, the Mauryans (or Nandas if they manage to resist the Mauryans).

Control of the Deccan:
Will someone kick the Askmaka off that prime land or will they sit tight?

Religion:

I don't know how one would do it in Civ3, but it would be great to get something like the Civ4 religion dynamic at play here. It's clearly very important for the period and situation. You've got Hinduism, Buddhism, Hellenistic Polytheism, Zoroastrianism and Nomadic religions to play with here.

Key Events:

327 BC

- Sikander’s forces just about defeat the Pauravas (Battle of Hydaspes on River Jhelum) but are severely dented by this. There is the option to cross the Indus with what’s left. But over there lies the massive Nanda Empire, which is the largest of the early game and a daunting prospect. If they can manage to cross the Indus, they can gain access to some key strategic resource(s), which allows them to build units and/or improvements that allow further conquest into India. If not, then bye bye.

- Chandragupta mustering forces ready to take advantage of weakening Nandas

323-321 – Mauryan conquest of Nanda Empire

321-305 – Mauryan conquest of further North West

305-300 – Mauryan conquest of Assaka and Deccan (not Kalinga though)

265-264 – Kalinga War

264-232 – Spreading of Buddhism


Story, leader, traits, UUs, dynamics and qualities for each civ:
Spoiler :

1 – Macedonians:
General Sikander
Militaristic & Expansionist
Phalanx


Story: Powerful at start, with a large western empire, but difficult to sustain and advance this after inevitable war with Pauravas. Still, to make things interesting for players, there should be a chance of them crossing the Indus and perhaps carving an empire out in the Gangetic Plain (see resource note above). If so, expect a hot contest with the Nandas and Mauryans.

Military: Powerful early military that is slow moving except for use of Persian horse archers. Largely made up of phalanx and hoplite and Central Asian mercenaries.

Culture and Administration: Unable to build much in the way of wealth improvements, guiding them to a slightly nerfed military character. Hellenistic culture and administration improvements.

Key rivals: Pauravas, Nandas and Mauryans.

2 – Pauravas:
Rana Porus
Militaristic & Productive
Elephant Tower

Story:
Powerful at start with a small concentrated empire in the Punjab area. They either lose the battle with Sikander and end up with a weak fragmented empire, get wiped out totally, or defeat him and can then fashion a small empire in the north west.

Military: Powerful early military that is slow moving throughout. Largely made up of archers, infantry and elephants.

Culture and Administration: Good all round balance with emphasis on Hindu improvements.

Key rivals:
Sikander, Nandas and Mauryans.

3 – Taxila:
Rana Ambhi
Scientific & Commercial (or Industrious)
Something like the Swiss Mercenary unit from Conquests

Story:
Tiny, compact, cultural, scientific civ that largely keeps to itself and is very hard to take.

Military: Just slow moving defenders.

Culture and Administration: In possession of University of Taxila. Mainly science, production and culture. Buddhist culture.

Key rivals: Ideally Mauryans, if/when they take down the Nandas. Otherwise Nandas.

4 – Kamboja:
?
Expansionist and something rubbish
Horse Archers

Story:
Scattered, disorganised and wandering civ. Either at the mercy of Sikander or, if shrewdly played, able to migrate and carve out a little kingdom for themselves in Gujarat area.

Military: Mainly fast moving cavalry with mediocre to high attack but poor defence. Little in the way of solid defensive infantry, unless they make it to say Gujarat thereby accessing a resource which allows more solid defenders.

Culture and Administration: Persian / Central Asian style.

Key rivals: Sikander and then Nandas.

5 – Bactrians:
Satrap Bessus
Expansionist & Militaristic
Another kind of horse archer, very fast moving ambusher

Story:
Much like Kamboja but more directly in conflict with Sikander and confined to the extreme north west.

Military: Much like Kamboja too but perhaps with some fairly decent infantry.

Culture and Administration: Central Asian nomadic type stuff.

Key rivals: Sikander.

6 – Nandas:
Mahapadma Nanda of the Nandas (or Dhana Nanda)
Commercial, Religious & Agricultural
Chariot (or some kind of infantry) which triggers v. early Golden Age

Story:
The most powerful civ from the start, at least in terms of land area, with an empire spanning pretty much the whole of the Gangetic Plains and the rest of northern India. Beset by corruption through their empire and waning military abilities. If Sikander makes it over the Indus, then they are forced to focus on that war. If he doesn’t, they must face destruction at the hands of the Mauryans.

Military: Good balance (infantry, elephants, cavalry, archers) but as time goes on their units grow weak in comparison to their rivals.

Culture and Administration: Hindu culture and wealth improvements.

Key rivals: Mauryans and Sikander if he can manage it.

7 – Mauryans:
Maharaja Chandragupta
Militaristic, Agricultural & Industrious (maybe add Religious too to really soup them up!)
Very Fast moving Elephant (3 movement)

Story:
Starting up in Bihar, they have a very small base, but a good stack of hardcore units from start, ready to wage war on the Nandas and bring them down. Need to get to some key location nearby giving them access to a resource that allows them to explode and be confident of taking down the Nandas properly though.

Military: The works! Especially very fast moving cavalry type units to allow massive conquest.

Culture and Administration: Again, the works. But especially good anti-corruption buildings. Lots of culture ones (both Hindu and then later Buddhist).

Key rivals: Nandas and Kalinga. Then those in the south.

8 – Kalinga:
Raja Ananta Padmanabha
Commercial and Industrious
Strong middle game defender

Story:
Medium sized, compact empire which is wealthy and productive. They are able to expand into Nanda lands and south west towards Pallavas and Assaka. Going north early against the Mauryans should spell doom. Need to sit tight and wait for them.

Military: Little in the way of fast moving units to prevent too much expansion, but very good on defence.

Culture and Administration: Wealthy and productivity mainly. Also the only republic in the game.

Key rivals:
Mauryans.

9 – Assaka / Ashmaka:

?
Agricultural & Religious
Some kind of infantry or archer or maybe even worker

Story:
Set up on very good land, with lots of luxuries like gems, they are a comfortable civ to play but, owing to their prime land and location, are an inevitable target for those seeking to conquer south into the Deccan and Tamil lands.

Military: Mainly archers and infantry.

Culture and Administration: Hindu temples and growth improvements mainly.

Key rivals: Nandas and Mauryans. Kalinga too if they choose to expand.

10 – Cheras:
Maybe Alatan something or other, meaming ‘Lord’ in classical Tamil?
Agricultural & Industrious
Kalari Fighter a la the one in Mughals scenario

Story:
Small compact largely peaceful kingdom, sitting on some a stack of luxuries like pepper and spice, which they can just sit and trade away to ride the game through. Difficult to expand with them. May well get embroiled in the ‘Tamil contest’.

Military: Largely infantry but with a better than elephant unit than any of the other Tamils.

Culture and Administration: Hindu culture and wealth.

Key rivals: The other Tamils.

11 – Pandayas:

Raja Koon Pandiyan
Militaristic & Religious
Some fast moving infantry that ignores jungle movement

Story:
Facing an inevitable contest with the other Tamils (especially the Cholas and Pallavas) for supremacy of the south.

Military: Good balance but nothing with 3 movement.

Culture and Administration: Hindu / Tamil temples and anti-corruption if they win the ‘Tamil contest’ and break out north.

Key rivals: Cholas, Cheras and Pallavas.

12 – Cholas:

Raja Karikala
Religious & Seafaring
Strong mid game defender

Story:
Facing an inevitable contest with the other Tamils (especially the Cholas and Pallavas) for supremacy of the south. With the option to go take Sri Lanka and run all kinds trade out to sea. Especially well set up to benefit from pearls luxuries.

Military: Naval craft especially, but also archers and infantry and elephants. Probably little in the way of horses.

Culture and Administration: Hindu / Tamil temples and wealth and science.

Key rivals: Cholas, Cheras and Pallavas.

13 – Pallavas:
Skanda Varman? (Much later than period)
Agricultural & Commercial
Elephant or infantry unit

Story:
Also part of the Tamil Contest but more able to just defend southern borders and then free to expand north. Though doing so should lead to potential destruction at the hands of the Mauryans as they come south.

Military: Elephants and infantry mainly.

Culture and Administration: Hindu / Tamil temples and wealth and production.

Key rivals: Cholas, Cheras and Pandavas, then Mauryans.

14 – Anuradhapura:
Raja Pandukabhaya
Religious & Commercial
Weak Archer

Story:
Sitting ducks.

Military: Weak

Culture and Administration: Not much.

Key rivals: The mainland Tamils.

15 – Shakya:
How about the Buddha Gautama himself?
Industrious & Religious
Something suited to mountains, perhaps a Buddhist monk with ability to convert(enslave)

Story:
Key Buddhist kingdom which somehow influences Mauryans with their religion. Sitting pretty in the early game but eventually overrun by Mauryans.

Military: Mediocre defenders, but nothing fast moving aside from their UU.

Culture and Administration: Heavy on the Buddhist stupas.

Key rivals: Mauryans and perhaps Nandas if the AI and player can harness them.

Military:

Phallangitai for Macedonians
Horse Archers – Persian and Indian kinds
Cavalry – ones with long spears/lances and maybe also javelins
Elephant Archers, Elephant Towers and as many other elephants as can be squeezed in!
Infantry – Pikes, Spearmen, Swordsmen, Slingers, maybe Javelineers?
Monks & Holymen - Buddhist and Hindu

Found this but haven't had time to read it:
http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=military_ancient_india

Resources:
Copper
Tin
Iron
Elephants x 2
Horses x 2
Marble
Craftsmen

Luxuries:
Gems
Cotton
Silk?
Incense
Dyes
Pepper
Cinnamon
Pearls

Bonuses:
Rice
Grain
Sheep
Goats
Fish
Pearls in sea
Gold
Silver

A really good book I once owned (never returned after a loan :mad:) for further reading on all this is: A History of South India from the Early Times to the Fall of Vijayanagar by K.A.N. Sastri.

---

And all this doesn't by any means exclude the possibility of using those four trade civs. Seems like a cool idea. Though I wonder: (a) how big the map would be to accomodate these, (b) where they would actually go, (c) what happens in those areas around them in what I presume would be a map greatly expanded to the one I've posted above and (d) what the effect of having them at the corners would be - if not careful, they may distract from the main action. Perhaps they can be more symbolic rather than geographic destinations?


---

There ya go. Someone send me a PM when the scenario's been uploaded :D
 
Rambuchan, thanks for a great overview.

I was thinking of the trade civs as being symbolic rather than actual geographic destinations. If they were actual "places," the map would be huge and would of necessity include a host of distracting possibilities. In any case, if the concept doesn't work, we can junk it.

I agree. There isn't much too differentiate the different states in existence at the time. Some were republics and some were monarchies. And some of each were Buddhist, Jainist, Hindu, and other religions. As to which civs to include, I have several different maps and none of them agree. Clearly, more research is in order. I have ordered the book you mentioned ($8) as well as several others.
 
My pleasure. I'm pretty certain what I've suggested, with the necessary detail added, would be a ripping scenario.

I forgot to add suggested Victory Conditions:

Domination: Contested between Sikander, Mauryans and Nandas. Maybe also by Ashmaka and Kalinga too, if they can expand enough.

Cultural: Contested by Mauryans with the sheer scale of their empire, allowing them to built many of those columns. Also by Shakya and Taxila who get exclusive access to major Buddhist cultural 'nuke' wonders that pre-occupy them most of the game, thereby controlling their expansion and encouraging others to go conquer them. Perhaps also by the Tamils, with something like the Bronze statues that the Cholas so famously built.


What's wrong with just cropping the eastern side off the Mughals map? That seems like it'd do the job just grandly. More needed to the north and west?

Jainism! I knew I'd forgotten one! Has anyone sucessfully implemented something like religions in Civ3 yet? Would be great to get that going in this.
 
Sikander? Fighting against the Bactrians? Given that you've assigned them to Satrap Bessus, they would be a remnant of the Achæmenids, right? What about the real Bactrian Hellenistic kingdom?
 
Yes, I was thinking of them being some remnant of the Achaemenids. I may well be wrong on the historical details of their relationship with Alexander/Sikander, but I recall reading that there was conflict between Bessus and Alexander just before the time period I have suggested. Whatever the precise historical detail is on this, I believe it's obvious that some civ that is hostile to Sikander's Macedonians needs to be there - to create a more dynamic contest in that region. If there isn't, then it'd be a bit dull over there and Sikander's march into the Ganges would perhaps be too easy, thereby upsetting an important game balance in the heartland of the scenario.
 
Well, Persia didn't just crumble and anyway Bactria and the Arsacids Parthia seceded rather quickly. Maybe you could have Persia and the Macedonians duking it out, eventually most of Bactria and the Arsacid Kingdom were conquered by the Sassanids.
 
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