BOTM 37 Final Spoiler - Game completed or abandoned

DynamicSpirit

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BOTM 37 Final Spoiler



So how did your game go after 500AD? Please tell everyone and discuss it in this thread, subject to...

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Well I've at least finished my first GOTM with a win rather than a loss. Not certain that an 1865 cultural victory in 1865 is in anyway good, but it could have been a lot worse. I thought I was OK to defend the inevitable DOW by Herod with rifles against his Macemen, but it turned out he had Curraissers and he should have taken my key production city, which would probably have been the end, but he unaccountably didn't attack my one remaining Warrior with a partially damaged Curaisser. I was able to move reinforcements in next turn and quickly kicked him off the continent. I was also attacked late on by Eboneezer, and he took one city that was originally Sugar Plum Fairies, captured by the Ghost Of Christmas Past, then culturally flipped to me. I had already built all the cathedrals I needed by then, so the loss of this city didn't really hurt me strategically.

Weirdly, Eboneezer attacked the turn after all members of the Apostolic Palace had signed a defensive pact (including him), so he immediately found himself at war with every other civilisation. My allies sunk all his ships, so there was no chance of him reinforcing his initial force, and so no fear of further city losses, so I was able to complete the push to triple Legendary status with no further distractions.

Prior to 500AD I failed to build the Oracle and the Parthenon. After 500AD I failed to build the Sistine Chapel and the Taj Mahal. Complete consistency there. Sugar Plum fairy was the culprit in all four cases. In fact she almost beat me to the cultural victory having one legendary city and two within 10 turns of legendary by the end.

Successes: Not losing. Victory with a Sushi culture strategy something I'd never tried before.
Failures: Founding my second city in Santa's Grotto. Founding on any one of the East, West or South Flood Plains would have been much better - it took forever to grow where I put it. Also, I failed to build a Christian Monastery in my only Christian city before Scientific Method, so missed out on another set of Cathedrals. (Actually this might have been less of a problem than it might appear because the map is so hammer poor a fourth set of Cathedrals might not have made the victory any quicker.)
 
I lost cultural to Egypt... as post above, she build many wonders few turns before me, so I didn't even consider going for cultural, but domination... anyway while I vassalized Japan and Russia, Egypt took cultural win, and I didn't even checked victory conditions, it was a big surprise...

I should have attack Egypt first, being the strongest civ, later it is hard to attack advanced civ.

I can't win domination without a city producing military units every turn, and in this game my military city (with Epic) was my capital which produced units every 3 turns... also cities on flood plains had a lot of ice tiles that cannot be worked, so I thought cultural win is not possible...
 
Yes ! First completed game of the month, after my failed attempt at vikingism.
Achieved a diplodomination victory by 1912 and the map was good fun.

Considering the state of the map, I thought I really needed the food first to pump settlers and workers, and assumed there must be some hammers hidden on the north pole. I mean, we have to build these toys, right ?

So I ended up taking my time and going east, settling on turn 4. I was fairly gutted when I discovered there was much closer floodplains west. Well...
I went bronzeworking quickly, assessing that there was a great need for whipping. And oh boy, did I whip. Santa Claus is a monster of a slavedriver. So many elves died under the last, the snow was dripping red.
Founded New York east of the island on what looked a possible production spot, then moved back west to found Boston, south of Santa's grotto.
At that time, I was enthralled by the sign pointing to what I thought was the christmas gifts. So I intensely tried to put together a galley with a warrior, hoping to find lots of villages, just to discover more signs, and then at the end, Ebenezer. Damn you Mapmaker !
I started mapping out the other civilisations, wondering at first if it was all going to be a massive snowfest : nope, we're the only losers stranded in the cold.
So many floodplains could have led to a specialist economy, but I just couldn't see the pyramids happening with so little production, and barbarians about to pop soon, so I just snatched the GLH by 850 which saved my economy.
Despiste my spawnbusting, the barbarians started to come hard, and as soon as I founded my fourth city under the feet of my spawnbusting archer, an axeman razed it.
Well, give or take, I managed to found 5 cities by 55 bc, then 3 more in 625 AD, snatching the GL on the way.
Oddly, through a not so bad trading economy, I managed to stay tech leader for pretty much the entire game. They "I want" column was always quite full, with often nothing to offer me. It's as annoying as it's gratifying. Only the Sugar Plum Fairy was keeping up.
I won the Lib race by 1020 AD, took printing press on my way to Rifle to start expanding on land.
Diplomatically, it was definitely hectic. Only the SPF landed a tiny town on the north of Santa's grotto, but besides that the North Pole was mine. I tried to open borders with everyone to get maximum income, and only worked at keeping Frosty and the SPF kinda pleased. I declared war at Herod to please Frosty, but just cheered from the side, and reopened borders with him as soon as we finished.
I finally found my presents, reaaally late. And boy they sucked ! I should have send an explorer, but my maceman popped barbarians after barbarians. Thus said, there was a present hidden in it : since I didn't have a single fight before that, this was the only opportunity I got to bring someone to level 4 and build the Heroic Epic : the Saga of the Opening Present Soldier. So, it was still a nice gift.
Finally decided to start expanding, hesitated between the Ghost and Scrooge, and finally the gems and gold lured me.
From them on, Santa's Bloodbath started with very little pause. DOW on Scrooge on 1430, and in two wars vassalized him in 1716, with a quick stop to repel two DOW from the Tree Fairy, and from my trusted reindeer Rudolph. It was probably a bribe, since their invasion force was paltry to say the least. The good thing was that my first invasion of Scrooge was very low on frigates, and got my galions decimated quickly. So I was building a huge frigate fleet when the DOWed, and I was able to sink most of their ships before they could land.
Well, 6 turns later I DOW on the Ghost, took a brief respite to complete Assembly Line, and finished him in 1806 (vassalized).
During that time, I kept a clear eye on the SPF, who was starting to run ahead, and steal the tech leader position, and was very getting really close to a cultural victory.
It pained me since she was my only ally since the beginning, but I stabbed her in the back in 1845, razed a city to be sure, conquered another one to achieve a foothold, and sued for peace.
The sad part was : I was about to get aviation and planned to send 10 units during the 10 turns. But she liked me so much and was so forgiving that she agreed to open borders right after the peace treaty was signed !
I almost felt bad when I shipped a massive bunch of tanks, and without surprise DOWed and vassalized her in 1884.
Continuing on my momentum, I wanted to attack someone else. A more logical target would have been the Reindeer. But see, even with the name change, an aztec is an aztec. And if you don't know why you should always attack the aztec, still do it, he probably does.
Well, DOW 1893, and he vassalized to Frosty in 1898. At that point, I had modern armour and clearly the biggest wrinklies around, so I DOWed her too, and vassalized them both in 1910.
At this stage, I was just waiting for the borders of the aztec and english cities to pop back after revolt to achieve domination, but the UN acknowledged me as master of the world (well, duh !).

I'm actually not quite sure how I managed to stay tech leader for almost the entire game : I followed Rusten's advice, and grew my cities, producing money in a lot of them, keeping my science slider high, brokering when I needed too, and almost ignoring the money making buildings (I must have built maybe one market, that's all.)
I also didn't do my usual beeline along the combustion line and took the time to go to biology, physics and communism first which I rarely do. Health turned out to be a problem quickly with all the floodplains.
I'm fairly happy about the way the game turned. I'm absolutely certain I could have won much earlier with a tighter play, and less stupid mistakes, and I can't wait to see the other's games.
 
This was the 4th space victory I have done for Civ4 and 3 of them are BOTM29, SGOTM12, and BOTM37. I'd like to share with you my thought of key factors for a space victory and hope that you could gain some useful ideas, although the results were not optimal due to my suboptimal play and greedy for Gold Medals.

I BC Era

1. REXing -- Land is power, this applies to every difficulty level, including deity, although in higher levels, the barbarians, AIs, and maintenance are going to pose more challenge to do so. Tips -- settle your 2nd city as fast as possible and usually try to stay close to your capital (because your 2nd city will usually boost both net commerce and production), except that the barbarians stops you to do so, which in my experience, only in deity level, you probably need a stronger unit or several warriors for fogbusting.


This is my Rexing result in 5BC, 11 cities with 310 BPT.

Spoiler :




How to achieve this in a map with low production, many of you have already known the answer -- whipping, however, many of you have not been aware of how powerful of whipping, This is how I whipped my capital, Washington had been constantly whipped of a worker or a settler at size 4~6 and the overflow went to wonders and units, this was how the hammer poor capital did the job of REXing and wonder spam.

Spoiler :




2. Wonders -- For a map that you are able to settle more than 5 good coastal cities, the most important early wonders are GLH and The Colossus, financial leaders fit best with these 2 wonders. The 2 wonders enable you to REXing until the land runs out. Oracle is also a good wonder to pursue, but IMO is not that great as the above 2. Many people are fond of Mids, which IMO is only a mediocre wonder and I have never build it without Stone. My reason is that HR is better when you are facing happiness issue (i.e. massive whipping and/or not enough happiness resources). On the other hand, representation is a more expensive civic and in early stage, most of the time you want slavery and therefore you won't run many specialists to take the benefit of Representation.

As you can see from the last screenshot, my capital got Oracle, GLH, and TC and was building TGL.


3. Techs for REXing -- GLH and TC allows you to REXing in early stage since almost every coastal city pays for itself or even boost your net commerce at the time it is founded, however, to REXing non-stopping, you need more -- Currency, CoL are the 2 key techs. My early teching is like BW...Oracle techs and Oracle took MC since Roosevelt is Industrious and Forge will help on both production and happiness ... CoL->Math->CS, which enable me of expanding like no tomorrow.



4. Great Person -- In most of the game I have played, my major GP farm is capital and the GPP come from wonders but not specialists. I usually try to grab TGL and immediately followed by NE in capital, this 2 wonders alone already contribute 18 GPPs or 27 GPPs if you play with a Phi leader. There's little problem to produce ~3 GPs before liberalism date, which is enough even for a deity game. BTW, many people usually don't care about ToA, which IMO is a very good wonder (better than Mids) when have access to Marble and could build it early enough.



II AD Era

1. Infrastructures -- The peaceful REXing usually ends now, time to whip/build the infrastructures. I rarely lay down cottages since I rate infrastructures much higher than cottages and farms enable you to whip infrastructures without any hesitation and I'm really very cruel at whipping. Because capital was low of hammers, so I had never stopped whipping the precious capital, how to solve the happiness issue, easy, HR plus a bunch of warriors.

Spoiler :




2. Techs and wonders to boost your BPT -- Literature for TGL and NE, mainly to setup your GP farm. Music for the free GA. Edu for OU. As you have seen from my 5BC screenshot, I was only 5 turns from completion of Edu, however, it's still a long time to have OU online since most of my cities were small because they were fully contributed to REXing. In my mind, getting good cities founded as early as possible is more important than saving pops for faster OU. As a result, what I did after Edu, simple, I set slider to 0% until OU was completed, this is why you have seen over 8K cash in the following screenshot. So in 580AD, I have settled to the island cities nearby and to the other continents as well. BTW, I got 2 techs (Calendar and Aes from the Christmas presents).

Spoiler :




3. Expanding with war -- As you have expected, war is the only effective way to keep growing after you have run out space for peaceful expansion. I waited until I got cannons for cheap war, the 1st target is obviously Japanese due to the massive gold/Gem/Silver mines as you can see that I have already have AL and RR and Mine Corporation available.

Spoiler :




This was how I whipped my Shine city and Corporation headquarter. Corporations are definitely the optimal way to play to the fastest space victory, the only downside is that they add much more micros to play the game, the spy assignment by the city governor is extremely annoying!

Spoiler :




The 2nd war was geared toward Egypt, they had pretty good land, the most important reason was that they grabbed a bunch of wonders, including the absolutely needed wonder of MoM. BTW, the only GA I launched before I capture Egyptian capital was the one from Taj and I have not used any GP for light bulb.

Spoiler :




The war have not stopped, my 3rd target was English and this time I have better forces -- 10 bombers.

Spoiler :




And here's the 4th war with Aztec and I have to stopped and liberate a bunch of captured cities since I have taken more land than domination limitation.

Spoiler :




Reached the milestone of 10K BPT in 1500AD

Spoiler :




1 turn before victory, note that Russian was also down because I was greedy for score milking.

Spoiler :


 
Well, that was a learning experience. I just didn't play very well, I guess. I retired in 1720, after everyone started declaring war on me, and Tree Fairy landed a groups around 3 of my 9 cities. Had already taken one. I suppose this was all because I had my cities woefully under-defended, what with production problems and all.

I had started thinking of going for space race victory, even though we were behind many in techs, mostly to Sugar Plum. So, when a 3rd religion appeared in our island, I changed that thinking to Cultural victory, and had to start getting all my cities building towards that. Thus, didn't get enough defenders built.

I play like that often, and build up enough $, so I can upgrade units, if someone attacks me. Did that this time, and might have fared better if the first wave of knights, etc had been held off by my longbowmen and pikemen. Had no luck, and his limping units sat in my taken city healing. A few turns later, as I was sending reinforcements and built a curiasser, and started building units in other cities, the other big landing parties appeared.

Could see the writing on the wall there, so I Retired.

Kudos to all those won got victories. No small feat in this game, I say.
 
I can't win domination without a city producing military units every turn, and in this game my military city (with Epic) was my capital which produced units every 3 turns...

I think you can have more units in this game, the map being so food rich:

Why not whip a unit every turn with Globe in the Capital?
And why not draft 3 units per turn under Nationhood?
 
Goal: Fastest space
Result: 1740AD
Score 244k


Not really happy with the result - especially mid game expansion was way too slow.

First game with a powerful sushi, +18 food in the end. Had some fun with marines :D!

Launch:
launch.JPG
 
jesusin, contender. Goal: fastest cultural victory. Result: 1400AD cultural victory


Disclaimer: This is a long text. If you are not particularly interested in my game (which isn't anything special, really) go directly to the "Cultural Victory in easy levels in BTS reflections" section to read what I think I've found about cultural games in general.



Initial thoughts
Spoiler :

Slavery for hammers… OR will be important, getting religions maybe important. Explore the map to get an idea what to expect. Adapt to map circumstances.



Very first turns
Spoiler :

Turn 1: Warrior E. Settler is thinking about settling on incense, moving through W and N of the lake. I don't think there will be nothing special SE, if there is, I'll prefer Marble anyway. Set sees fish lake and FP…. no hammers... the FP-deer tile by incense will save 5t off the Worker… keep moving. I now know this is the North pole. Should I settle there? I feel compelled to.

Turn 2: Warrior E, many FP. Settler sees GoodyHut, but ignores it.

Turn 3: Intrigued by blue sign, War NE sees fish. Set N-NE sees Crabs. I know where I'm settling… pity of marble.

Turn 5: Settle with Fish, Crabs, FP-deer, FP-hill 4FP.

I felt happy with my capital. But later, when I explored W and S of our initial position I felt robbed. Someone settling around there has a huge advantage. As for the poor guys that decide to settle in place, without any FP... no medals for you, people.

Start on Worker and Mining (for earliest possible slavery).



First turns
Spoiler :

The focus is completely on hammers.

Production: Worker, Warrior, WB (chopped), WB, Settler (double whipped).

Research: Mining, BW(slavery), Hunting, Wheel, Pottery(granary for efficient slavery)

Worker actions: Mine the FP-hill first thing in the morning. Then chop, then connect Furs. When the second city was built, the Worker was there to mine the FP-hill first thing.

As you can see, every action, every decision was oriented to improve hammers count of the empire (and to explore).



The early game

Spoiler :
Settling first cities:

02 built E, with sea, river, cow, copper, 5FP, 1hill FP.
03 built W of starting position, as the best GPFarm I've ever had. 3fish, 6FP, sea, lake, 3deers, furs, gems.
04 built SW on dyes, with sea, fish, 1hill FP, 7FP, (and iron later on).

Improvements:

01: 1 of the FPs was farmed, the rest cottaged. I never stopped working the FP-hill. Legendary.
02: Auxiliary city, the one with the most hammers of the empire. I never stopped working the FP-hill. Helped with Expansion first, with units later and with GreatPeople at the end.
03: Everything farmed, GPFarm, Legenday.
04: Everything cottaged, I never stopped working the FP-hill. Legendary.
Rest of the cities: Everything farmed, to pop some additional GreatPeople.

First thing whipped in every city except the capital was a Monument. Second a granary.


Cultural victory plan:

Get some religions somehow. Found 9 cities on my continent (not going out will keep me as an intercontinental objective, so I won't probably get dowed). Whip cathedrals in all 3 Legendary cities, since the GPFarm is so food-rich it won't mind getting 10pop whipped from time to time. Work those few cottages, get the odd WorldWonder here and there with overflow from whipping temples, produce more GreatArtists than in all my previous games together.
I considered a sushi powered cultural victory, there are a lot of resources on this map, but my research was so bad that I didn't feel like researching so far.


I lost focus in this part of the game. 2 Workers for 4 cities looks just a little bit tight in an icy map, if you know what I mean :mischief:. Barb's luck had something to do with that.
I would have liked to reach 1000BC with 6 cities and 9 workers.

1000 BC Stats: 4 cities, 11 pop, 5 workers, 8units(War), 1Set,4WB, 0 strategic resources, 0 luxury resources, 3 health resources, 0 great persons, 0 world wonders, 0 national wonders, food/production/commerce=44-13-37, 22 sustainable beakers per turn, 7 culture per turn, 6 great person points per turn, 150 gold, 2Gra, 2Monu, Lib, lh. 1 religions, 0/2 cottages used, 12 Techs: BW, Wri, PH, Sail. 0 civs killed. 5 hours played. Researching CoL.

In this part of the game I learnt 2 things I didn't know before.
- Barbs can spawn in dark tiles that are at 2 distance of a cultural border tile. If you have a unit there, they can't, but if there is only your culture, they can.
- Religions can infect one of your cities even when you haven't met the AI with that religion. :)



Middle game:
Spoiler :

Setting oneself a goal:

Writing down my 1000BC stats made me realise I wasn't doing the right thing. I had lost focus. My goal now was settling cities as fast as I could and getting them to a monument+granary+10fpt state as soon as possible. With the odd Worker to go with it, of course.
In my defense all I can say is that barbs had too good luck and made me whip too much and at inconvenient moments. They also disconnected my Furs twice.


More mistakes:

It is good I set myself that goal. That way my other mistakes look justified.

I failed to get Oracle, I would have chosen Philo to be sure of my 3rd reliigon. At least I was first to CoL, netting me my second religion and making AIs lose interest in Philo.

Academy built 550BC. I kept hiring 2 scientists because:
- It was a significant part of my research.
- Happines limited my growth, so it was a good way to reduce food.
- I though I have the time to pop Philo and be first to it.
- It was cool. :(

As you may imagine, all my reasons were great, but the wrong AI got the wrong GP (a GS) and bulbed Philo a few turns before I could.


Another AI bulbed Theology with a GProphet.

Also I failed to realise the importance of The Great LightHouse in this map :cry:. Even though I had noticed the high values of trade-routes.

On a different note, I discovered the world wasn't round and hated the mapmaker for not telling so in the announcing thread :gripe:. The WB that made such a horrible discovery was ordered to suicide against a Barb Galley as a punishment.

As for Random Events, I noticed some interesting things happening to other civs. I would have loved to get that herbalist or that ballad, but I was glad I never had any slave revolt.



More cities:

First fogbust it all with warriors and 1 Axe. Then:

05built W, as a pass for the 3rd GPFarm's fish, shared fish, marble, deerFP, 3 shared FP, 2FP.
06built SW, 2fish.
07built just S, fish, crabs, 1FP, wines.
08built in SW tip, fish+2clams.
09built W, fish, sheep, gems.
10built in Eastern continent, in the hopes of seen a foreign missionary; with fish, rice, dyes.


Some good things:

A third religion got spread to me.
Bureaucracy 95BC.


1AD Stats: 10 cities, 54 pop, 9workers, 10units (3Axe), Gal, 2 strategic resources, 5 luxury resources, 7 health resources, 1 great persons, 0 world wonders, 0 national wonders, food/production/commerce=200-29-197, 132 sustainable beakers per turn, 32 culture per turn, 6 great person points per turn, 50 gold. 3 religions. 9/9 cottages used, 17 Techs: BW, Aest, CS, no Alpha. 0 civs killed. 11.5 hours played. 9rel*city, 5temples, 0cath

So in this period I reached my goal of expansion. When you depend on slavery and you are planning to change to Castes sometime, it is very important not to settle late cities, as they'll lose the capability to whip before they have their granary up and running.

Now the next goal was to spread religions and build temples and cathedrals, while taking the key WW (Parthenon, Sistine's and in a lesser degree MoM).



Late game:
Spoiler :

I never researched Alphabet, waiting for others to do it for me. It cost me having to research Ployteism and Monteism and Masonry myself.

Parthenon 250AD. No GA in Music, someone got there first (must have been 50BC, when I saw that GA name). Someone gets a GS and bulbs Philo, I've lost Taoism. In despair I take another wrong decision: I trade for Theology, giving CS (and thus putting being first to Liberalism at risk) and I research DivineRights... only to fail by 1 turn. Hatty has 5 religions now, she is in better shape than me for a cultural victory.:eek:

NE 325AD, no artists hired, still in slavery.
Sistine's 370AD.
MoM 490AD, I wasn't hoping to get it.

Get Currency in trade 640AD, It is huge on this map. I wish I had researched it eons ago:mad:. I start selling techs for money and will do it till the end of the game, always keeping my slider at 100%.

Get Stone in trade and build Moai in the capital. Well, this is huge too. Probably my decision not to build it early because it was so expensive was a mistake.

Get Nationalism in trade, get Liberalism 880AD, choose Constitution as the free tech instead of PrintingPress, which my artists will research for me very soon under Representation. Whip the last needed Cathedrals and lots of infrastructure this turn, to use all overflow on TajMaj and Hermitage... sounds like much? Nah, just 18 pop in my 3 Legendary cities :evil:. Use my unlucky-that-got-to-late-to-found-a-religion GS for a GoldenAge and revolt to: Repr+FS+CS+Pacif.


Junk minutes:
Spoiler :

They say that after putting the culture slider to 100%, you just press enter-enter-enter.:rolleyes:
Well, I can't agree. I spent 6 hours in the 10 immediately following turns, sweating over my spreadsheet. The order in which you pop your GreatArtists is so important!

The focus up to this point had been building Temples and Cathedrals. Now my goal was maximizing GreatArtists.

On the turn I got Liberalism my 3 cities were doing 850cpt and I was doing 384GPPpt empire-wide, during a GoldenAge.

2 turns later I had regrown a few pop, I had finished all cathedrals (9 in all, 3 per Legendary city) and I was doing 1050cpt, 398GPPpt during GoldanAge.

I have zero artist hired in the GPFarm, I am growing GPFarm to the health cap (giving a chance to the other cities to spit 1 cheap GA).

Around this time I sent a Scout to the gifts and got 3 experiences, a number of maps, a lot of money and Compass. That allowed me to build the HE.

I pay 2 Friendly AIs to dow 2 WHEOOH AIs, just in case I was their target.

1000AD Stats: in GAge, 10 cities, 124 pop, 11 workers, 17 units (3lb), 3ships, 4 strategic resources, 8 luxury resources, 11 health resources, 6 great persons, 4 world wonders, 3 national wonders, food/production/commerce=288-70-2475, 200 sustainable beakers per turn, 2300(useful 1300) culture per turn, 559 great person points per turn, 1700 gold. 3 religions. 10/10 cottages used, 44 Techs: Liber, Democ, almost PP, no Guilds, Optics. 0 civs killed. 23 hours played. still 0 artist in GPFarm

TajMaj 1010AD.
Hermitage 1030AD.
AP in my religion is built, what a rain of hammers now I don't have a use for them!:sad:

1060AD I'm doing 1750cpt, 700GPPpt in GoldenAge.
Globe 1110AD.
Free GM from Economy 1170AD. I do a lot of Maths, then I decide I'll launch another GoldenAge with it and a GreatArtist. I've been emptying the granary to have more artists during my GoldenAge, I'll stay some turns out fo GoldenAge before launching that one, in order to grow food in the granaries and then emptying them again in GoldenAge.

1190AD I'm doing 2050cpt, 900GPPpt in GoldenAge. Next turn it has ended and I'm doing 1900cpt, 650GPPpt.

1260AD I'm doing 2200cpt, 1020GPPpt in GoldenAge.

SpiMin 1265AD.

1330AD I'm doing 2450cpt, 1030GPPpt in GoldenAge. Next turn it has ended and I'm doing 2300cpt, 732GPPpt.

Someone goes WHEOOH, pay them to revolt out of military civics and spend some time in anarchy.


Starve some cities, delay others, the ordering of GA birth is crucial. Get 2 GA in the two last turns, bomb them all, win.



Key data:

Spoiler :

Cultural victory 1400AD. 3Religions, 9Cathedrals, 20GP, 1Acad, 3GAge, 16 bombed GArtist. Base cpt 243-168-196, multipliers 3,5 2,5 4,5 (Hermitage site was a mistake), bombs 4-7-5

From Liberalism date, which is the same as final Cathedrals date, I popped 17GA in 66 turns, or 1 every 4 turns.
At the very end I was doing 2300cpt in the 3 cities. Last GA saved 3 turns, it could have saved 4 if I had been able to make it pop sooner.

On the victory turn I had 19000 useless GPP empire-wide and 9000 excess culture in my 3 cities.



Cultural Victory in easy levels in BTS reflections

Spoiler :

I've been comparing data between my most recent games. Maybe I am just finding useful info about my personal way of playing... but I think I've found some "universal constants".

My way of playing is stopping at Liberalism and going 100% culture just then, with 2 cities dedicated to cottages and/or WorldWonders and a city dedicated as main GPFarm; all other cities are secondary GPFarms.
Conclusions (numbers come from Normal speed, apply the appropriate factor for other speeds):

I always can put Hermitage in my best city (and yet have to use some GA bomb on it).
At the end of the game the cuantity of unused GPP is 4 times (CONSTANT1) the cost of the last GP. So having to go to 1 more GP means 800GPP lost to inneficiency, apart from the cost of the GP itself. This means that using a GA in a GoldenAge can be a good idea, if you can hire enough artists during the GoldenAge .


At the end of a game I'm always doing some 2200 to 2300cpt (CONSTANT2) in the 3 cities. This means that, as an average, the last GA is worth 2 turns. If you plan to lose 2 turns to anarchy, using a GA in a GoldanAge is a good idea.




During many months I studied my data and couldn't perfectly correlate it with the victory date. I was missing a key parameter. That parameter was "the date where all the cathedrals get built".
Perfect timing makes you finish your cathedrals at the same time you reach Liberalism.

Assuming you got perfect timing, the time between Liberalism and Victory date is 45 turns (CONSTANT3).

During that period the 3 cities are doing a total of 500 to 600 base cpt (not includng multipliers) (CONSTANT4).

During that period 1 GA is going to be generated every 3 turns (CONSTANT5).

During that period you'll be doing 1800cpt as an average (CONSTANT6).


An additional religion, with its corresponding set of cathedrals, it's going to mean a saving of 5 or 6 turns (CONSTANT7).
At 100% culture, I was doing 243, 168 and 196 base culture points (before multipliers) in my cities. If I had had a 4th religion and I had been able to have the 4th cathedral magically built in my 3 cities at Liberalism date, then I would have done 50%(243+168+196) = 300cpt additional in my civ. Considering this additional culture, I would have won sooner, but how much sooner? Every saved turn would have deprived me of the 2300cpt I was doing at the end and also of the GPP I was doing every turn... So all in all, the new religion with it's free cathedrals would have saved just 5,2 turns!


At the end of the game you won't have done just 50000c per city, or a total of 150000culture, but 155000 culture. Excess culture is 5000c (CONSTANT8).

So all in all you would have added:
- 12000 culture before you reach Liberalism.
- 45 turns at 1800cpt = 83250c
- 15 GA = 60000c
Total: 155250c






Practical application:


What do all this numbers mean for you?

Well, if you are just like me, you probably don't need them. When you have to take a decision like "will I pop enough GA from here to the end of the game as to set up the Hermitage in the best city?" or "Is it worth building another monastery or am I close enough to victory that it is better to build culture instead?" you just prepare a huge spreadsheet, spend a couple of hours calculating and then you know for sure the turn of your victory and how many GA you are going to have.

Now, if you don't do that kind of calculations, then you are probably at a loss about the turn you expect to win or the number of GA you will have for bombing. In this case, my constants can be a useful guide.



Example 1: You are playing a hammer rich game. You were very early infected by foreign missionaries with 3 religions. You can go for Paper-Educ-Liberalism directly or I can first make a detour to get Christianity from Theology. Should you try?

Well, if your game is hammer rich and you have had the time to spread the religions and build temples, you'll probably finish your cathedrals before you reach Liberalism.
In that case, a 1 turn delay of Liberalism will be a 1 turn delay in your victory date, since it will take around 45 turns from one date to the other.

The additional set of Christian cathedrals will save 5 or 6 turns out of your final date. So if you can research Theology in less than 5 or 6 turns, you should go for it; if your research capability is worst than that, you shouldn't.


Example2: You've got your first GA from Music. Should you settle it or save it for a culture bomb at the end of the game? It's an Epic game. The land is very bad.

Count how long will it take for you to research up to Liberalism. Add some more turns if your cathedral building is slow. Add 66 turns (45*1,5, Epic factor). Add a couple of turns because the land is so bad you don't really trust the "jesusin's 45 turns contant" applies in this situation. Now you know the number of turns the GA settled as a superspecialist will be contributing.

If number of turns * contribution per turn is more than 6000 culture, go for it, settle him.


Example3: Was wasting a GA in a GoldenAge a good idea in this game?

I invested a whole GA. If the GoldenAge returned more than a GA, then it was a good idea. Popping a new GA to substitute the used one had a direct cost of 4200GPP and an indirect cost of 1200GPP in the shape of additional unused GPP at the end of the game. Total cost = 5400GPP.

The GoldenAge lasted 15 turns and during them I was doing 300GPP more than out of GoldenAge. That's a direct benefit of 4500GPP. But a 10% of my specialists were in cities that didn't ahve a chance to pop a GA, so they were merchants instead of artists. The direct benefit gets reduced to 4050GPP.
Also I was doing some more hammers which were translated to a few culture points I won't bother to count.
Also I was doing additional culture in my ciites: 150cpt during 15 turn or 2250c. Since a GA is worth 6000c, then this additional culture is the equivalent of more than a third of the cost of the GA (5400*2250/6000= 2025GPP).
So total benefit was 4050+2025 GPP and a few hammers, which is more than the 5400GPP cost. It was the right decision.



Convinced of the utility of the constants? Learn them by heart! And also... don't forget to send your gratitude leftovers to jesusin!
 
jesusin, contender. Goal: fastest cultural victory. Result: 1400AD cultural victory
Well, I took your suggestion and played out the game for a Cultural Victory. Reading your advice here, I should have pursued a different Victory Condition, seeing has how I only had 1 Religion in my borders at the time of learning Liberalism.

Regardless, it was a fun game.

I'll give a couple of comparison statistics. I did employ Sid's Sushi, using it to help "catch up" for my lack of Religions. In particular, when I got Religions late in the game, I was able to still employ whipping much beyond a normally good time to have given up on whipping in one's Legendary Cities, allowing me to build a lot more Cathedrals than one would otherwise have been able to build on such a production-poor map.

Unfortunately, the comparison isn't great as there was a large period of time where my Legendary Cities had no Cultural buildings to produce (having only 1 Religion until well after Liberalism). Thus, I ended up building other build items in my Legendary Cities, such as Universities, Banks, Oxford, Wallstreet, and Military Units. I would have preferred to have been building Cathedrals, but one can only build what one has to work with.

1000AD
(useful 1300) culture per turn
1000 AD:
419 Culture per Turn for me (using Legendary Cities only for this number and all of my numbers)
Researching Corporation
Hermitage + 2 Cathedrals

1190AD... Next turn it has ended and I'm doing 1900cpt, 650GPPpt.
1200 AD:
1033 Culture per Turn
Researching Scientific Method
Hermitage + 5 Cathedrals

I also JUST captured my first City from the Chinese, getting revenge for their earlier war declaration where they'd captured and maintained control of my City settled on "their" continent. After a few turns of revolt, I was able to whip some Missionaries and get an additional Religion spread in my borders. I would soon capture more Cities that would lead to additional Religions appearing within my borders.


1305 AD:
1196 Culture per Turn
Researching Medicine
Hermitage + 7 Cathedrals


1190AD I'm doing 2050cpt, 900GPPpt in GoldenAge. Next turn it has ended and I'm doing 1900cpt, 650GPPpt.

1260AD I'm doing 2200cpt, 1020GPPpt in GoldenAge.

SpiMin 1625AD.

1190AD I'm doing 2450cpt, 1030GPPpt in GoldenAge. Next turn it has ended and I'm doing 2300cpt, 732GPPpt.
I got a bit confused by what you wrote there... 1625 AD--I thought that you'd won in 1400 AD? Stats for 1190 AD a second time--maybe you meant a different date? Anyway...

1400 AD:
2953 Culture per Turn
80 Base Culture per Turn from Sid's Sushi in each City
Hermitage + 10 Cathedrals


1500 AD:
4713 Culture per Turn
100 Base Culture per Turn from Sid's Sushi in each City
Hermitage + 17 Cathedrals


Unfortunately, getting Religions beyond the first one so late had a very strong detrimental effect on my game. It was also my first game playing for a Sid's Sushi beeline, so I certainly was nowhere near an "early" Sid's date. Both factors make it tough to draw conclusions about which option is better (Sid's or stopping research at Liberalism), but I at least got a respectable Cultural date, making Sid's still seem like a feasible approach.


"Teching quickly" has been an area of the game that I am not great at, so I certainly have to improve this area of my game. Getting Medicine earlier than in the 1300 ADs would be required in order to get a comparable date to yours. Still, the power of getting Sid's up and using it for Slavery-oriented production cannot be ignored; although I got a late start, my additional Cathedral production from Sid's and my Base Cultural output from Sid's both went a long way towards helping me to "catch up."


Obviously, a more "ideal" approach could occur if one had City-by-City control over Science/Gold/Culture/Espionage Sliders. However, since this level of micro isn't available to the player, one has to make a tradeoff: an early 100% (or as high as possible) Cultural Slider versus a late 100% Cultural Slider in exchange for more techs and the value that one can obtain from said techs (in this case, Sid's Sushi).


Having already researched Corporation and having an extra Great Engineer around, I was tempted to push on towards Creative Constructions. However, I believe that doing so would have been a mistake, as my finishing date likely would have been greatly delayed had I done so.

I'm not sure if you could make a complete beeline towards Creative Constructions work out (say, on a rare map where there are a ton of the relevant Corporate Resources available), as there is an even greater investment in Science Flasks required to get you there than to get you to Sid's, even if each Resource does provide 3 Culture as opposed to Sid's 2 Culture. Perhaps that approach could work in a Deity game, where the AIs can help to carry your research rate forwards. In this game, I was leading the pack most of the time so there weren't many mid-to-late-game tech-trading opportunities.
 
Well, I took your suggestion and played out the game for a Cultural Victory.
Thank you. I love to have games to compare to.

1000 AD:
419 Culture per Turn for me (using Legendary Cities only for this number and all of my numbers)
Researching Corporation
Hermitage + 2 Cathedrals

1200 AD:
1033 Culture per Turn
Researching Scientific Method
Hermitage + 5 Cathedrals

There's something I don't understand here. I'm considering that you were playing 100% research all this time, under Bureaucracy all the time. How did you go from 400cpt to 1000cpt in the 3 Legendary cities?

Your numbers lead me to think you had 90-80-70 base cpt and 2-1,5-1,5 multipliers at 1000AD.
Your numbers lead me to think you had 170-150-140 base cpt and 2,5-2-2 multipliers at 1000AD.
Doubling base cpt in all 3 cities in this period sounds impressive.



I got a bit confused by what you wrote there... 1625 AD--I thought that you'd won in 1400 AD? Stats for 1190 AD a second time--maybe you meant a different date? Anyway...
Oh my! I have corrected the relevant data in my post now:

1260AD I'm doing 2200cpt, 1020GPPpt in GoldenAge.
SpiMin 1265AD.
1330AD I'm doing 2450cpt, 1030GPPpt in GoldenAge. Next turn it has ended and I'm doing 2300cpt, 732GPPpt.


Unfortunately, getting Religions beyond the first one so late had a very strong detrimental effect on my game. It was also my first game playing for a Sid's Sushi beeline, so I certainly was nowhere near an "early" Sid's date. Both factors make it tough to draw conclusions about which option is better (Sid's or stopping research at Liberalism), but I at least got a respectable Cultural date, making Sid's still seem like a feasible approach.

I think the comparison is very interesting.

You don't seem to mention your SidSushi date, nor your victory date. Please, how many turns between those 2 dates? Around 33?

I don't see any mention at all to number of Great Artists. Maybe you are paying too little attention to this part of a cultural game? As a reference, in my game 96000 out of the 225000 culture needed came from bombed GA.
Please, how many GP did you pop and how many of them were GArtists?

I don't know if you are interested in further testing. If you are, I'd really appreciate your taking your Liberalism save and stopping research there, playing with a single set of cathedrals to the end of the game. Would the victory date of this experiment be better or worst than your game one? :confused:
 
There's something I don't understand here. I'm considering that you were playing 100% research all this time, under Bureaucracy all the time. How did you go from 400cpt to 1000cpt in the 3 Legendary cities?
I was pretty much pumping towards 100% research as much as possible (spending some Commerce on Gold when needed).

Four possible factors stand out as being the reason for this discrepancy:
1. I set a target date of 0 AD for whipping as many Cultural buildings as possible, so that they'd still have sufficient time to double their Cultural output. I missed this target date but was "done" sometime between 0 AD and 500 AD, so this factor could play a role.

2. I didn't really record down my Civics in the stats. For example, I ran Bureaucracy, followed by Free Speech, followed by Nationhood, followed by Free Speech. I did not bother to check the F3 screen when I recorded at those stats.

3. Golden Ages. I didn't check whether I was in one when I was recording my stats.

4. Cultural Slider. I was whipping a lot. A couple of times in the game I had to switch to 10% or 20% Cultural output. Again, I didn't pay attention to the Commerce Sliders when writing down those stats.

However, regardless of those settings, I WAS making the listed amount of Culture. So, we can't know conclusively HOW I was making it, but we can know that regardless of how I was making that Culture, I was actually making it. So, the info is still useful, just perhaps not as useful as it could have been if it were placed in a more complete context.

At least now I have a set of items that I will have to go back and add...


Your numbers lead me to think you had 90-80-70 base cpt and 2-1,5-1,5 multipliers at 1000AD.
Your numbers lead me to think you had 170-150-140 base cpt and 2,5-2-2 multipliers at 1000AD.
Doubling base cpt in all 3 cities in this period sounds impressive.
Yeah, I'm not really sure which of the above factors that I listed are contributing. However, I will note that the Golden Age item is unlikely to be much of a factor, because at very most, I was spending 20% of my Commerce on Cultural output and the percentage is likely a smaller amount. Also, I had only 1 or 2 Cottages being worked by my Legendary Cities, so not much of my Cultural output was coming from Cottages anyway.


You don't seem to mention your SidSushi date, nor your victory date. Please, how many turns between those 2 dates? Around 33?
Sid's date I don't recall. I am going to roughly guess around 1350 AD. Again, we'll be able to get that info from the Replay after the game is over. The Victory Date, if I recall correctly, was 1540 AD. Since you play with a spreadsheet, perhaps you know exactly how many turns those dates would translate to and can tell us.


I don't see any mention at all to number of Great Artists. Maybe you are paying too little attention to this part of a cultural game? As a reference, in my game 96000 out of the 225000 culture needed came from bombed GA.
Please, how many GP did you pop and how many of them were GArtists?
In Warlords Cultural Victories, I spend more effort generating Great Artists than in BTS. In BTS, non-Great-Artist Great People are easier to use for a Golden Age and can be of relatively more value than normal when used in a Golden Age due to Anarchy-free Civic switches and due to the Mausoleum extending the length of one's Golden Ages, a World Wonder which I managed to build in this game.

I recall my Great People being something like:
Great Engineer
Great Engineer
Great Prophet
Great Scientist
Great Scientist
Great Artist
Random Great Person for Golden Age #1
Great Artist
Random Great Person for Golden Age #2
Random Great Person for Golden Age #2
Great Spy
Great Artist

I must have missed a couple of Great People in that list... the number 2700 GPP sticks out in my mind as the next amount of GPP required for generating a Great Person.

2700 / 1.5 = 1800 GPP at Normal Game Speed. After 1000 GPP at Normal Game Speed, the values double, meaning that I generated 13 Great People manually. I also received the Great Artist from Music, the Great Merchant from Economics, and the Great Spy from Communism (via Representation teching).

So, that's 16 Great People. The Great Spy from Communism wasn't of much help--he saved me 1 turn by settling in a City that needed just that much more Culture per turn to shave a turn off of my finishing date. I found a good use for all of the other Great People.

Actually, if I recall correctly, I settled 3 Great Artists and bombed two of them, so I definitely missed at least 2 Great Artists from my above list.
 
Jesusin....I've read and used much of your culture ideas, for quite some time. My one question is, when you stop all teching at Liberalism, what do you do to employ proper defenses against your competitors. That's been a concern of mine, so I've gone with less than 100% culture in more recent games, so as to at least get better defenders and railroads.

However, I realize if you win early enough, those aren't a factor anyhow. I've not come close to 1400, so that's probably my problem. I've also got to work on my GPFarm process. So, there are things I know I can work on to get myself earlier culture wins.

But, do you never have issues with getting DOWs and being underdefended?
 
Thank you very much for your data, it is truly interesting.

In Warlords Cultural Victories, I spend more effort generating Great Artists than in BTS. In BTS, non-Great-Artist Great People are easier to use for a Golden Age and can be of relatively more value than normal when used in a Golden Age due to Anarchy-free Civic switches and due to the Mausoleum extending the length of one's Golden Ages, a World Wonder which I managed to build in this game...

...Actually, if I recall correctly, I settled 3 Great Artists and bombed two of them, so I definitely missed at least 2 Great Artists from my above list.

It is absolutely true that having a non-artist GP is not a disaster in BTs, as it was in Vanilla or Warlords. Now, only 5 artists out of 16GP (!) brrrrr :eek:


Sid's date I don't recall. I am going to roughly guess around 1350 AD. Again, we'll be able to get that info from the Replay after the game is over. The Victory Date, if I recall correctly, was 1540 AD. Since you play with a spreadsheet, perhaps you know exactly how many turns those dates would translate to and can tell us.

Sure, it's 38 turns.


I have yet to play a sushi cultural game, but according to your data (in normal speed) you would save 18 turns of the 100% culture phase... I don't think you can research from Liberalism to sushi in 18 turns... apart from the invested GP. That should indicate that stopping at Liberalism is better.
This conclusion is preliminary and must be checked against more games, though.
 
Holy s*** indeed. And no, Alamankarazieff, you and I will never play like Duckweed or Jesusin. :cry: But reading their posts will at least help us become better.

I've been following along Kossin's Deity example game in Strategy and Tips and I was struck by how little he whipped, whereas one of the biggest things I've learned from Duckweed (Kossin's co-conspirator in the SGOTM12 game) over the past year or so of xOTMs is to whip harder. I'm having a hard time reconciling these approaches (but I have yet to really study Kossin's game closely, and in this game we really had no choice but to whip like mad because of the poor production). You've posted in Kossin's thread, Ducks, so you must be following at least a little. Care to comment? Please?

Anyhoo.... I got a Religious win in 1395. I never get Religious victories, and it drives me absolutely nuts when the AI does this to me. I'm not very good at diplomacy but in this game things kept steering me toward it. Hattie was ahead much of the game and got almost all the wonders. I think the only "early" wonders I got were the Great Library and Colossus; I rushed the Taj later with a Great Engineer (and used another to do Iron Works). The other AI were jealous of Hattie and once she built the AP she become the perfect opponent.

With so much food I was able to run a lot of specialists and gradually crept past the other AI and then surpassed Hattie, mostly helped by Boudica and Mao DoWing her (and staying at war for a long time). I don't recall if this was before or after Hattie built the AP. The weird thing was we were all Jewish and on pretty good terms, but once the AP was built and Boudy and Mao went after Hattie it was pretty clear I had a good shot at the Religious win. I gradually wound down my resource trades with Hattie, built them up with everybody else, and liberally sold my techs to everyone but Hattie for cash. I popped 2 Great Merchants at nearly the same time (one from Economics) and was ready to complete simultaneous trade missions to her Jewish shrine city (for 2850 gold each :D) when Mao asked me to DoW her. Bad timing, but I had to refuse in order to complete the trade missions. (Well, maybe my GMs wouldn't have teleported outside Hattie's borders but I didn't want to take that chance.) Anyway, later that same turn, with 5700 gold in hand, I did DoW her, attacking her two cities on my north coast. I was the only one with cannon, and quickly got rifles and cavs during the war, and took 2 more cities on her mainland, including her shrine city. After that I let her capitulate, figuring I should go after Toku next, since I wasn't at all sure about winning the Rel win vote coming up soon (with Hattie as my opponent, since she still owned the AP).

Boudica was my bestest pal, with something like +15 relations, but Mao was right on the edge at +9, and the Victory/Members screen guessed he wouldn't vote for me. I gave him a couple more techs and trades and crossed my fingers and lo and behold it worked (even though he was still at +9). I was prepared that very turn to attack Toku's 2 cites in my far south and then go after his mainland, planning simply to keep taking population from the AIs until I could win with just my and Boudica's votes. Toku, Stalin, Monte, and Vicky had only a handful of votes (they were following different religions) so it would have been pretty straightforward.

Oh, I forgot to mention that I had sent one missionary to a small English city to spread Judaism to every civ way back, a couple turns before my first opportunity (as AP resident) to try for a religious win. It didn't work--Mao was merely Pleased with me--but it looked quite promising, particularly if I DoWed Hattie to get mutual military struggle points.

Oh, I also forget to mention the Christmas presents. I had missed the trail of messages leading south down our coast (saw the "the" but thought it was just... well, I don't know what I thought, but I didn't investigate until quite late) so it wasn't until not long before I got Optics that I discovered the full message and sent a caravel with a scout out yonder. I popped another scout, 4 warriors, and 3 techs (Astro, HBR, and Aesthetics Literature), plus some gold and experience points, and eventually got everybody (including a worker captured from the barb city there) back home to help with Hereditary Rule happiness and coastal fogbusting.
 
I went for maximum score on this game. Not a single cottage was constructed.
Beelined to curaisers, whipped up a batch, and started capitulating neighbors while teching to Sushi.

Dom victory in 1535. Managed a 540,000 score :)

I was pretty weak on the wonders, missed oracle by 1 turn and had to manually research metal casting. I also missed the mausoleum by 1 turn, which really hurt as I had 4 golden ages. I really loved all the goody huts, only drama and gold, but man was it exciting to try.

My best present to the AI was not attacking Miss Sugar Plum. She had all those sweet sweet wonders at the top of the world in Thebes, and I refrained from taking them. First it was because she had great trade routes with me, then because she was a good trading partner. I nearly wiped her out when she called me her worst enemy in a very friendly manner, but since it is Christmas I let it slide :lol:

Spoiler :
 
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1) I expanded very weak at the beginning

2) China declared war at me, when I had 1 warrior in capital. Luckly golden age, switch to nationhood, defended.

3) About 1850 Egypt was 50 turns to victory. I declared war, made an assault, but she had more cavalrys than i expected and already upgraded rifles to infantry. I fled with about a half of my 20unit stack

4) 15 turns later - My rifles upgraded to SAM infantry, made 2 more transports and declared war again, carrying 28 troops to Memphis

5) Destroyers to get rid of cultural bonus, destroyed Memphis

And this is how I prevented Cultural win of Egypt :)

Later I was on my way to spaceship victory, when Aztec declared war on me 2 times. He never made me more harm than destroying some fishes. During the second war, Monty noticed he has nothing to seek on my land, so he sailed away to Hatty. After taking 3 of her cities....

... Game status: Diplomatic Loss to Aztec
Game date: 1933AD
 
I won. Well. I passed the game. It was semiDiplo in 1992. Took me almost 48 hours.
When I will have more time I will describe it in more details. Again (as in Vikings game) I'm glad I survived. It was NOT easy. When I finally was improving monstrous Eboneezer attacked me. He had Grenadiers, I had only Macemen and Longbowmen. But avenge was mine.
 
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