SGOTM 12 - ChokoMisfits

Sleepless · Jan 7, 2011

Well quick look at the save Marble Town will complete Apollo in 5 turns same as capital so might as well keep it on wealth building atm. Would lumbermill/rr the furs though.

Happiness we currently haven't got sugar/silk or incense so we need to get them back. Ditto sheep. So we need to re assign resource trades as well. Lots of micro to do which might knock a turn or so off our launch. Not alot but it all helps. Guess Plastic Ducks finished 1750????

Edit: Suggest we use medicine as bait for changing to serfdom + gold from the AI Roo and Churchill have a bit.

Sun Tzu Wu · Jan 7, 2011

haphazard1 said:
A couple thoughts on tech path:

- Should we leave Genetics so late? It would allow us to start the Stasis Chamber earlier, a very expensive part with no doubler resource. Also, it would give +3 health in all cities, which we could certainly use in a lot of places.

- If we grab Satellites earlier, is it worth finishing Composites earlier to start the 5 SS Casings? They are relatively cheap and double with aluminum, but there are five of them.

Of course, if we move all of Satellites, Genetics, and Composites earlier we will end up with Fusion last, which means the engines become a bottleneck at the end. But I think we should consider at least Genetics earlier to get the bonus health in all cities.

Originally, I suggested this Research path:

Computers -> Fiber Optics -> Fusion -> Genetics -> Satellites -> Composites

I liked this because the SS Casings are the quickest SS parts to build for which we don't yet have the required Technology to build them.

Then I decided that having Satellites first would give us the advantage of a real-time view of the AI's Fallout clearing progress, which would allow us to address issues with their progress ASAP. Moving Satellites to the 1st researched position gives us this revised Research path:

Satellites -> Computers -> Fiber Optics -> Fusion -> Genetics -> Composites

haphazard1, thanks for pointing out a potential issue with starting SS Stasis Chamber so late. I can reserve MarbleTown to build it, increase its Base Hammer rate by 20% via some Population growth fueled by traded Sushi resources, 2 Fur -> RR Lumbermill, Village -> Workshop, Farm -> Workshop, maybe some Watermills -> Workshops and preChopping 3 Ring 3 Forests. When building SS Stasis Chamber, Base Hammers will be about 96, chop 3 Forests, maybe arrange overflow from prior turn which all combined will complete it in 4t.

I also like your idea of moving Composites forward, because even though we are helped by having access to Aluminum, our best five Hammer cities will not be able to complete them very quickly. CopperRice is our 5th best Hammer city and with ~50 Base Hammers +200% (Forge+Factory+Coal-Plant+Aluminum) it can complete an SS Casing in 1200H / 150 Hpt = 8t. We don't want Composites as our tail-end SS Technology, I will push it ahead of Genetics thusly:

Satellites -> Computers -> Fiber Optics -> Fusion -> Composites -> Genetics

Actually, MarbleTown and Capital will be busy building SS Engines, I'll need to bring two other cities up to Base Hammers 50, but that should not be hard, since we have several 40+ Base Hammers cities where 1-2 Workshops can suffice to bring them up to 50 Base Hammer. These two cities will build SS Casing instead.

Based on our 3000 Bpt Research rate, Genetics will complete in 3t, so I'll need to do my best to pull in the SS Casing builds from 8t to 7t, so all SS parts are completed 4t after Genetics. In any case, I've given optimizing the tail-end of our Space Ship a lot of thought and the last suggested Research path seems best, regardless of placing Satellites first or not:

Satellites -> Computers -> Fiber Optics -> Fusion -> Composites -> Genetics

All SS parts unlocked by Technologies earlier than Fusion may need to be built in some of our 8th to 15th ranked Hammer cities, but the builds should be started earlier enough to be completed by Genetics + 4t (SS Stasis Chamber completion turn).

haphazard1 said:
I have no idea if you can get failure cash from a world project like Apollo. Is it actually faster to start it in the IW city than to complete it in the capital? (I have not checked the save.)

Seems like Apollo Program will take 5t to complete in MarbleTown; same as leaving it complete in Capital, so I plan to continue building it in Capital.

Sleepless said:
Well quick look at the save Marble Town will complete Apollo in 5 turns same as capital so might as well keep it on wealth building atm. Would lumbermill/rr the furs though.

Thanks, will do. I'll build build a few Workshops there too as mentioned earlier in my post.

Sleepless said:
Happiness we currently haven't got sugar/silk or incense so we need to get them back. Ditto sheep. So we need to re assign resource trades as well. Lots of micro to do which might knock a turn or so off our launch. Not alot but it all helps. Guess Plastic Ducks finished 1750????

Thanks, that will save me a little checking of what resources we have completely traded away to the AIs.

I suspect that Plastics Ducks planned a massive conquest and captured all AI opponents, except perhaps 1-2 cities each, except Stalin 0. Their early high score graph suggested this likely scenario; we probably should have taken De Gaulle much earlier with Axemen and 2-3 more Civs with Elephants and Catapults; Plastic Ducks probably did something like that. They might also know they can finish easily by the deadline and are waiting before doing their last 1-2 turn sets. Enough speculation on Plastics Ducks; the game will end soon and then all will be revealed.

Sleepless said:
Edit: Suggest we use medicine as bait for changing to serfdom + gold from the AI Roo and Churchill have a bit.

Excellent idea!

I'll be playing in about 30-45 minutes from this posting.

I expect that it will take me the rest of the weekend at least to complete my turn set. I plan to upload after each session. I'll pause if something seriously bad happens, but we have 10t of space ship flight time (normal speed) to complete all the conditions by the time we reach Alpha Centauri (ETA = 18t SS Research + 4t SS Stasis Chamber build + 10t flight time = 32t or t326 or likely a few turns earlier).

Sun Tzu Wu

Ozbenno · Jan 8, 2011

Good luck, plan seems sound!

Sleepless · Jan 8, 2011

Yep nice planning Sun Tzu Wu and good luck.

Sun Tzu Wu · Jan 8, 2011

Serfdom:

None of the AIs were willing to adopt Serfdom. Gandhi must have made a recent civics change; Churchill didn't like us enough; Roosevelt and Mao Zedong complained that the unhappiness would be too great.

Satellites and Great Engineer in PigFish:

We have Completed Satellites and have generated a Great Engineer in PigFish. Thus, we can start a Golden Age, possibly our last one. We have up to 21t left before launch, but the Golden Age will speed that up significantly. I'm not sure whether starting the Golden Age now would be better than waiting a few turns. We want the Golden Age to extend through the five SS Casing and Stasis Chamber builds at the tail end, just before launch. The Apollo Program will complete in 2t, so we certainly don't want to start the Golden Age till then, unless were sure we can generate three more Great People plus the Great Engineer for Fusion for a four Great Person Great Age. Even pacifism and +100% Golden Age Great Person generation will be enough to earn three more Great People in 12-14t (start GA through 2t hence).

Fallout in AI Lands:

Gandhi seems to have a significant amount of Fallout to clear in his small continent. Roosevelt has a fair amount to clear too. I didn't notice much in Churchill's lands except close-by. Mao Zedong seems to be doing OK with Fallout. I've given workers to Gandhi on his nearby island and I'm shipping more. I've been moving workers to Fallout outside of all culture. I plan to build many more workers on our main continent and move them into Mao Zedong and Roosevelt and give them away on non-BFC plots with Fallout in the hope that the AI will first these workers to clear Fallout (possibly first building a Road though).

AI Emancipation forced switch from Caste System to Emancipation:

Last turn Churchill adopted Emancipation and Culture had to be increased to 30%, so I switched from Caste System to Emancipation. We lose +1 Hpt for workshops and unlimited Scientists, but we can apply Culture 30% to Research instead.

Roosevelt on the War Path:

Roosevelt has just adopted Environmentalism and Theocracy. He may be planning to attack Mao Zedong (-5 Dipl), though our Diplomacy with Roosevelt is just +1.

Plan for Four more Mining, Inc. Resources:

I'm in the process of settling a City in the northern arctic area that has two Silver and an an Iron in ring 3. Three workers are already there building railroads to connect it to our watery trade network and to connect the three Mining, Inc. resources. The settler will be completed this turn and should be in place in about 3 more turns. I'll try to get 1-3 more workers there to build the three mines ASAP. I plan to settle a city next to the Copper south of the old IceFishing location and mine and connect the Copper. These two cities will add 4 Hpt base to each Mining, Inc. city which should be a great boost to our SS part building cities, at least the second half of it. This will add 12 Hpt to Marble Town, 10 Hpt to Capital and 8 Hpt in all other Mining, Inc. cities. This should really help shorten at least our five SS Casing and SS Stasis Chamber builds; it may also help earlier builds like the two SS Engine builds.

Security Bureaus:

I'm currently building a bunch of Security Bureaus in cities likely to build our SS parts which adds +50% more espionage defense.

Potential new City for De Gaulle:

I'm moving a settler to our northwest adjacent to Marble in the snow. We can settle it now or later and give it to De Gaulle. He probably will accept it with an improved Marble and improved Fur (he doesn't have Industrialism yet.)

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1848 AD to 1854 AD:

Spoiler :

Here's the autolog.txt file:

Spoiler :

Here is a link to the current save:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm12/ChokoMisfits_SG012_AD1854_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Plans for continuing my Turn Set:

I plan to complete 3t more turns yet tonight (should Apollo in 2t and complete Computers in 3t) and then continue play Sunday morning (in between 12-14 hours from now). That should be enough time for discussion of what to do; I plan to delay starting the Golden Age until one full turn into building SS parts (1t after completing The Apollo Program).

Sun Tzu Wu

Ozbenno · Jan 9, 2011

We want our next (and probably last) Golden Age to have maximum effect on SS parts so agree that delaying until we are actually building them makes sense.

Sleepless · Jan 9, 2011

Shame about serfdom but some of the AI seem to be clearing fallout. Churchill seems a bit slow in his core so perhaps gift him some workers as well?

Sugar/Pig if we workshop where possible here (cottages) would jump the hammer output up. Perhaps more than the capital? Also with sushi its worth putting industrial parks in cities for the extra ge slots.

Sun Tzu Wu · Jan 9, 2011

Turn Set - Results of turns 297 - 300 (AD 1854 - 1860):

Completed Apollo by t299.

Started SS Docking Bay t299; ETA 6t.

Started 3 SS Thrusters t299; ETA 10t, 11t and 12t.

Started Industrial Park in roughly 2nd through 7th largest Hammer city for free Engineer and two Engineer slots, providing up to 6 Base Hammers more in each city; adds 4 Unhealthiness total; all these cities can cope with 4 more Unhealthiness; option of building Recycling Center to get rid of all building generated Unhealthiness, but it is 300H.

Completed Computer by t300.

Plan to start final Golden Age at end of t300, since I think the timing may be right to get nearly all SS part building completed in our 12t Golden Age, but I'm not sure. It appears that it will take about 15t to complete the remaining four SS Technologies without a Golden Age plus 4-5t SS after for a total of 19-20t without a Golden Age.

Since we are building a lot of things such as Industrial Parks, SS parts and lots of workers to give away, our research slider is only 30% and Research rate is ~2600 Bpt.
The Golden Age could raise our research slider to perhaps as much as 80% and Research rate to ~3600 Bpt. That suggests that our 12t Golden Age will get as much as 17 normal turns of Research completed. The Golden Age with also help with Hammers, but can't add more than 20 Base Hammers in each City, because only one Hammer is added for each worked plot containing at least one Hammer. With the exception of MarbleTown and Capital, our next five largest Hammer cities have about 50-60 Base Hammers and the number of Base Hammers added via Golden Age ranges from 10 through 16; this means a Golden Age adds between 20% to 30% additional Hammers, meaning ETAs are reduced to ~83% to ~77% in length.

I can see some AI progress with Fallout, but its not yet certain whether the AIs will have it all cleared. Gandhi, Roosevelt and Churchill need help; I've given Gandhi several workers so far; I've given Roosevelt and Churchill one worker each, but plan to give many more soon.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1854 AD to 1860 AD:

Spoiler :

Here's the autolog.txt File Contents:

Spoiler :

Here is the current game save:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm12/ChokoMisfits_SG012_AD1860_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

I'll resume again later this morning (about 8 hours from this posting). In the absence of any input, I'll start the three Great Person Golden Age and continue from there.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu · Jan 9, 2011

Ozbenno said:
We want our next (and probably last) Golden Age to have maximum effect on SS parts so agree that delaying until we are actually building them makes sense.

Thanks for your support on this. As I mentioned in my previous post, I planned to start the Golden Age 1t after completing Apollo, because we probably won't quite fit the entire SS build into a single Golden Age, but I don't want to start it too late either.

Sleepless said:
Shame about serfdom but some of the AI seem to be clearing fallout. Churchill seems a bit slow in his core so perhaps gift him some workers as well?

I'm planning to build and give away workers to Gandhi, Roosevelt and Chuchill. I have given already Gandhi about 6 workers or more. Mao Zedong has more than enough workers to clear his Land; hard to find Fallout in his Lands already.

Sleepless said:
Sugar/Pig if we workshop where possible here (cottages) would jump the hammer output up. Perhaps more than the capital? Also with sushi its worth putting industrial parks in cities for the extra ge slots.

Yes, I could build workshops over Towns, but I'd rather ship workers to the needy AIs then do this type of custom improvements. I hope we don't have to DoW an AI to clear his Fallout; I think we have to make Peace with all AIs as one of the final game conditions.

I'm currently building six Industrial Parks already. The additional 4 unhealthiness won't be too hard to deal with.

Sun Tzu Wu

ianw1610 · Jan 9, 2011

As it is unlikely we will generate a 4-person Golden Age, we may want to use our "spare" Great Scientist to bulb some of Fibre Optics... it will only save us 1 turn, but is better than nothing.

Yet again, an AI (Roosevelt) has dropped out of WHEOOHRN mode. This has now happened (to various AIs) 4 or 5 times in the past 20 turns. Gandhi is still in WHEOOHRN, but his army looks comparatively weak, compared to the other AIs.

Sleepless · Jan 9, 2011

Good news AI are doing a good job clearing fallout in their lands. Just hope clearing fallout has a higher value than replacing cottages with farms etc.

The double silver city to connect to our lands we either need to build a fort (not sure if it connects if not in our lands) or another settler.

Def bulb the GS. Don't think it would make a lot of difference but going composites/genetics would allow TwinGems to produce another GP which is likley to be a GS putting another bulb into fibre optics?

WHEEOH. I think we were Mao's target but our mil improved considerably. Not sure if Roo was gunning for Mao or DG but good to see he has gone off the idea. Ghandi?

Resource deals we can give Ghandi oil for 3 sushi/1 mining resource. Probably do alot better if we cancelled some but no real need.

haphazard1 · Jan 9, 2011

Very good turnset so far, Sun Tzu Wu. :thumbsup:

Definitely agree on the timing of the golden age, and also with bulbing the excess GS.

Let's hope the fallout gets cleared by the AIs.

JerichoHill · Jan 10, 2011

Back from a fun weekend. Sun, read over your turnset reports. Clearly the AI scrubbing fallout is just pathetic, we really didn't anticipate how poor that would turn out.

I think you've done a good job setting us up for the shuttle.

Do we have any contingency if the AI don't clean their lands? For instance, if the AI is at war they're not going to have workers out, so world peace is critical.

haphazard1 · Jan 10, 2011

The AI rate for cleaning fallout is definitely less than we hoped for.

But it seems like the AIs who have enough workers (Mao for example) have done a decent job. Sun Tzu Wu's plan to continue providing workers to the most laggard AIs, and as close to the fallout as possible so they might use them for that task, seems very good to me.

We can continue playing after our SS reaches Alpha Centauri if this is necessary to complete the other scenario goals. Hopefully that will not be required, but we shall see. We must have peace with all AIs as well as all fallout cleared, so I am not sure if declaring in order to move workers into AI lands will help us or hurt us overall.

We do have a window while the last parts complete and as the SS travels where we can start pumping massive military if required. But I think that would only work if we need to clean up fallout in one (or at most two) AIs' lands. We can not declare on everybody. :lol:

But if there is only one AI which has not cleaned up all their fallout...maybe it could work.

Good luck, Sun Tzu Wu!

Sun Tzu Wu · Jan 10, 2011

I started the Golden Age, but I completely miscalculated the bonus to Research. Our wealth rate improved somewhat, but the Research rate is limited by the moderate number of Towns we have and the fact we are in Emancipation and can't hire more than 4 Scientists per city, except Capital which can hire 7 Scientists. I tried filling out our specialists with 4-Bpt 4-Ept Spy specialists then 3-Bpt 3-Wpt Merchant specialists (because of the Wealth boost) and finally 4-Bpt 4-Cpt Artists (their culture is virtual useles and dwarfed by Sid's Sushi culture ouput in any case). Thinking about it now, I should be prioritizing specialists as follows:

1) Engineer (3 Bpt + 2 Hpt for building SS parts)

2) Scientist (6 Bpt for maximum Research)

3) Merchant (3 Bpt + 3 Wpt for improving our economy)

4) Priest (3 Bpt + 1 Wpt + 1 Hpt for improving our economy and building SS parts)

5) Spy specialist (4 Bpt 4 Ept for Espionage that makes enemy espionage action more costly in espionage points)

6) Artist (4 Bpt + 4 Cpt but culture is virtually useless except for new cities to expand borders to ring 2)

I was able to force generation of a Great Scientist in CornTwinGems by reducing Research slider to 00 and maximizing specialists in the city. The two Great Scientists where bulbed in t303 on Fibre Optics for full effect.

I'm observing Gandhi, Roosevelt and Churchill using our gifted workers and they do seem to use them 25% of the time for clearing Fallout. I position a worker on a non-BFC Fallout plot before gifting it, but the AI usually either starts building a Railroad (maybe should have gifted them Railroad ASAP, so they be done building railroads in all their plots. Or they move to a BFC with Fallout and clear it. Later, I see our former workers building more railroads, lumber mills and other improvements. The best we can do is flood the AI with workers and doing this is causing our Research to falter somewhat. That's ok, so long as we really need to spam Workers and give them to the AI. I believe it may be working slowly, but don't forget we have 10 turns after space ship launch for the AIs to clear their Fallout. I believe it will work out ok and maybe even before our ship arrives in Alpha Centauri.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1860 AD to 1866 AD:

Spoiler :

autotog.txt file contents:

Spoiler :

Here's the current save:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm12/ChokoMisfits_SG012_AD1866_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

I plan to complete several more turns yet tonight and upload again.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu · Jan 11, 2011

Very brief comments: Both Research and AI Fallout clearing is going better now.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1866 AD to 1874 AD:

Spoiler :

Here's the autolog.txt content:

Spoiler :

Here's the current save (note that I haven't finished moving all units yet in the current turn):

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm12/ChokoMisfits_SG012_AD1874_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu · Jan 12, 2011

Brief comments:

Completed Composites in 2t. Used very extreme micromanaging to complete it with 3t remaining in our Golden Age. Starting another spam batch of Workers. Priority is now:

1) Churchill (has the most Fallout remaining)

2) Roosevelt (he has a little less Fallout, but the margin isn't very big)

3) Gandhi (may have enough workers to clear all Fallout by space ship arrival at Alpha Centauri, but must keep close watch and give more workers, if necessary)

4) Mao Zedong (he still has a chunk of Fallout that needs clearing; don't trade Railroad to him, or his workers will have another thing they can do besides clearing Fallout)

Plan to complete Genetics in 3t. I'm sure that MarbleTown can build the last SS part in 3t. Also, all SS Casings should be completed about the time MarbleTown is done, assuming no sabotage. Trying to get a defensive spy into each city building a SS part.

Added two more cities to add two more Iron (Mining, Inc. resources). One was immediately connected = settled port city on Iron; the other will take a few turns to connect.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1874 AD to 1878 AD:

Spoiler :

Here's the content of the autolog.txt file:

Spoiler :

Here's the current game save:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm12/ChokoMisfits_SG012_AD1878_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Sun Tzu Wu

Sleepless · Jan 12, 2011

Sun Tzu Wu

Managed an extremely fast look at the save before I had to go to work. Assume the last tech we need is genetics before we can build the ship. After that I would go for flight and start spamming bombers/transports and Modern Armour in case we have to nudge the AI to clearing there final bits of fallout. Should plan on getting transports with workers/ma ready to invade tiles with fallout. At least our production is solid so won't take long to build enough troops.

JerichoHill · Jan 12, 2011

very well done sun. I updated our summary.

Sleep, I think we will have to go military to ensure the fallout is cleared

Sun Tzu Wu · Jan 12, 2011

Sleepless said:
Sun Tzu Wu

Thank you. I'm progressing through turns slower than I'd prefer, but I'm doing my best to help the AIs clear Fallout by the time our ship arrives in the Alpha Centauri system. Our deadline is Jan 20th, which is approaching, but our game is nearly finished with the possible exception of clearing Fallout.

Sleepless said:
Managed an extremely fast look at the save before I had to go to work. Assume the last tech we need is genetics before we can build the ship. After that I would go for flight and start spamming bombers/transports and Modern Armour in case we have to nudge the AI to clearing there final bits of fallout. Should plan on getting transports with workers/ma ready to invade tiles with fallout. At least our production is solid so won't take long to build enough troops.

Space Ship Status:

Yes, the last Technology we need is Genetics.

Status of our space ship is all parts are built except:

SS Engine #1 in 3t

SS Engine #2 in 5t

3 SS Casings in 4t

2 SS Casings in 5t

MarbleTown can start our final SS part (SS Stasis Chamber) in 3t and complete in 3t more.

Fallout Clearing Status:

Churchill: total of 18 plots remain uncleared, including 3 plots being cleared by workers and 4 plots not visible.

Gandhi: total of 14 plots remain uncleared, including 2 plots being cleared by workers and 0 plots not visible.

Roosevelt: total of 13 plots remain uncleared, including 2 plots being cleared by workers and 3 plots not visible.

Mao Zedong: total of 6 plots remain uncleared, including 0 plots being cleared by workers and 1 plot not visible.

Numerous workers have been given to Churchill, Gandhi, Roosevelt with some effect, although probably only about 20% of their time has been spent clearing Fallout. No workers have been given to Mao Zedong yet. I plan to give workers to Churchill, Gandhi, Roosevelt and Mao Zedong in ratios of 8:4:4:1 respectively.

Worker and Military buildup:

I will start amassing units for possible Fallout clearing invasions ASAP, although I still have hope they will clear all Fallout themselves with the workers we can provide. Prior to the launch, some cities with continue building Wealth to complete Genetics in 3t. After the launch, all cities will build workers, modern armor and after Flight is completed bombers, etc.

If war is necessary, our huge production capacity with increase our power enormously and will help convince any Civ we DoW into a quick Cease Fire after our objective of clearing all Fallout has been achieved.

Airports and Airlifting Units:

With Flight, Airports could be built in all Hammer heavy cities for air lifting units. Can we air lift units to a Civ's cities when we have Open Borders with them? That may be a good way to get "reinforcements" to the Fallout "front".

Sun Tzu Wu

SGOTM 12 - ChokoMisfits

Deity

Deity

Fly Fly Away

Deity

Deity

Fly Fly Away

Deity

Deity

Deity

King

Deity

Dancing Bear

Bedrock of Knowledge

Dancing Bear

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Bedrock of Knowledge

Deity

Similar threads