Making a mini-modmod to make CoM more engaging and balanced (IMHO) - let's all share our personal ideas/tweaks for CoM!

[ToastedHCL]

This is my own thread to continue the discussion starting from this post (and including the ones right below it): https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/chronicles-of-mankind.643052/post-16583868

Thanks for the well wishes guys, I appreciate them . Unfortunately, one of my big problems is that metabolism is really dysfunctional, so writing takes a lot out me. Thus, I won't be able to get to respond in as much detail as I'd like Drak. I hate to not reply to things, but just be aware that I did read everything you said and appreciate it. You're a good dude and I've enjoyed your posts throughout the forum (as you may have noticed).

It would help if you toss up a SS of your settings. Simply click on the fist in the top left part of your in-game screen. Hit the settings tab, then SS it.

This to me sounds like your settings, specifically game speed. Build/constuction times will vary according to game speed as well. Additionally, early game is supposed to be slow by design, as this gives you time to explore the map, and start building up an economy. Civics play into this as well, and the good stuff doesn't happen until later eras.

I want to save the discussion of the more complex settings for another time, but my big ones are - Monarch, standard size, 9 civs, epic speed, continents. I get what you're saying about the speed but I like epic in BTS b/c it gives me more time for wars, especially intercontinental ones. Also, I feel like it's a pretty good pace in general to feel the later eras without getting bogged down in always waiting on the turn times. I'll admit that I certainly struggle a bit even in BTS with the very early game slowness on epic, but normally in BTS that goes away pretty quickly. On the other hand, it feels like you're stuck in the stone ages for actual centuries in this mod

The last part that I bolded is exactly my problem with this mod. I will admit that I have ADHD which actually means I can get super focused on deep mods/games but I also tend to have less tolerance than most for slow/boring parts in terms of pacing. So this might just be my personal thing. Still, I don't feel that it should be necessary to wait until Monarchy, etc. to start being able to build a nice empire. To be fair, I will say that this mod seems to have some of the most in depth progression I've ever seen in basically any game, which is pretty cool. With that being said, I feel that cutting down on some of maluses from the civics at the beginning of the game would still preserve the majority of the sense of progression while making the game much more immediately engaging. And actually I do have a feeling that at least a small of number of other people also wouldn't be able to play this mod with somewhat faster pacing in the ancient era.

Ok, so to be clear, I'm not judging on removing the growth penalties. Everyone likes to play however they wish. But by removing the penalties, your basically giving yourself no handicaps, but the AI still has them. You could always do an advanced start if you wanted to play in a later era. Starting in an AE and then simply removing the penalties associated with your brand new empire seems kind of hollow to me, as it doesn't really teach you anything about the game mechanics and how to offset the penalties. Just an observation bud, not meant as criticism.

That would be fair, but the AI also gets the exact same benefit of me removing the growth penalties, so there's no specific advantage for me I think? That's super important to me actually - to have a level playing field in terms of mechanics/balance between the AI and me (as much as possible). That is, unless the AI behavior is specifically coded around the early growth penalties and so it won't be able to adapt properly with them removed? I'll ask Nexus about that.

And I think I'm still going to keep some of penalties including the growth penalty on gatherers (still weighing it all tho). So my starting civics might just kind of suck instead of really ultra sucking . Good suggestion btw although I don't like advanced starts as much because they're a bit fiddly in terms of setting everything up properly and it can end up feeling like a spreadsheet trying to optimize everything properly. If I can't get the Ancient Era sufficiently sped up though with my tweaks, I might resort to a Classical Era advanced start though, but I'd prefer to avoid it if possible. The other thing is that I'm trying out playing as Persia and it would be nice to be able to pwn at least one AI in the AE with my immortals, hehe.

Looking again at your SS, it appears that you've only just started this game, or just a few turns into it... Yup, 2980 BC, so your not to far along into the game. Again, lol, your in the Ancient Era, so things are slow by design. Things are not going to go fast unless you've chosen quick speed or faster on game speed.

And continuing on the previous note again - I guess another way to look at it is to compare the "gamey"/pure, immediate fun vs. the realism/flavor level (in terms of the feeling of progression) aspects of the mod against base BTS and Orion's Grand Inquisitions (aka OGI, I know you're familiar with it). This mod in the early game is like 33% gamey fun and 67% realism/flavor. BTS might be like 67% gamey fun, 33% realism/flavor. And Orion's Grand Inquisitions is like 90% gamey fun, 10% realism/flavor. OGI is pretty insane lmao but I kinda love it from how addictive it is from turn one with all the resource planting and crazy wonders. Unfortunately, the AI would need a massive overhaul to be competitive in that mod (hence my signature). It's very interesting from a game design perspective though. Well, all those numbers are kind of arbitrary - I didn't think too carefully about them, but you get the general idea of what I mean. It's the relative ratios of gamey/immediately fun to realistic/flavorful that matter.

I have a feeling that over time, the gamey aspect (which is what I'm mainly looking for, although about 20-25% progression-type flavor is still good) of CoM would slowly increase to catch up to BTS and probably surpass it in the late game (which is very awesome). So basically, all I want to do is to raise the the initial gaminess to realism/flavor ratio to something a lot closer to BTS, maybe not all the way to 67/33, but much more than 33/67. And I really don't want to just play a faster speed because it will make the most of the game go too fast for me as it does in BTS and most mods on standard or faster.

Well, there's a lot more I'd like say about all of this but I guess ultimately I'm really just making the mini-modmod (MMM) for myself (with a tiny bit of help from Nexus or others on how to go about it, hopefully). Maybe a few people will enjoy it also someday, maybe not, but at least I will

So, it may help your gaming enjoyment if you read some threads over in the S&T forums. There's quite a bit of knowledge over there to help answer some of your questions ( in addition to asking here ).

Yeah they're great, I've read a decent number of them over the past few months (particularly the War Academy ones).

 

[ToastedHCL]

I didn't want my reply to get too long so I'm starting another one addressed to you, Nexus.

Well, I meant to make the early game "small scale". Focus on one city and micromanage it. I know it is very different from BtS.
I'm open to all suggestions on how to make it more interesting and fun.

Yeah I knew this is basically all WAI (working as intended) based on your design philosophy. I am definitely pretty conflicted about this mod because most of the content (from what I've read on it in the civilopedia) looks soooooooooooo sick, but the early game is just so sloooooooooow to me haha. I really want to be respectful to you and all your hard work so I really hope that neither you nor Drak nor anyone else feels like I'm trying to sabotage anything/disrepect you by making my mini-modmod (MMM). I know some people believe really strongly in things like "playing the game the way it was intended to be played" and "not going against the developer's philosophy". But I categorically disagree with that way of thinking. I think it's totally possible to assert simultaneously "the developers/modders did an awesome job with this overall" and "still, for my own and maybe some other people's enjoyment, I might be able to make this experience better in x,y, and z ways." In other words, I think it's perfectly fine and often in fact better to make changes that go against the intentions of the original creator, as long as you're respectful about it (which is how I'm trying to be, hopefully that comes across clearly).

I appreciate that you're open to suggestions! But Idk if I can really give you any that would fit with your philosophy (which is fine, it's your mod of course). The only thing that I think you might want to try is to give farms +1 food intrinsically and reduce food from gathering by 1, to make the level of food production consistent before and after plough. Also, that way you can keep growing a bit more after plough. Waiting until crop rotation to get a food surplus (beyond the buildings and food resources, which btw seem a bit overly rare, imo) seems way too late to me (even if though it might be realistic/flavorful).

Aside from that, you can check out my MMM when I share it to see if you want to include any of the changes I'm making. I'm guessing that our philosophies are probably very different on this matter though.

-

Now onto my questions for you - again, I hope you don't mind me asking about a few things I'd like to change (and potentially remove). I considered asking for help with these potential changes in the "Quick Modding Questions Thread" but I thought it might be best to go to you as the source first. I can try asking them there if you don't want to support my efforts (which I would understand) or just don't have time for for these questions though.

That scales with map size and era. What's considered too far in the ancient era, is fine in the medieval era and meaningless in the modern.
Also, 5 tiles distance is nothing on a Huge map but on a Small map it may equal to Madrid-Paris distance.

1. ^Is this something that would be possible for me to remove or is it hard coded in some way? I tried poking around in the xml and python but wasn't really sure where to look for the modifier. I totally get why you included this but I really miss the normal productivity and expansion potential for additional cities as in BTS and other mods. How exactly would I remove the malus?

2. The other change I'm having difficulties with is the restriction on unit production from the hunters civic. I would like to either reduce the restrictions in terms of the allowed units to be produced and/or totally remove it (I'm still trying to make up my mind about it). Once again, I tried looking for where the restrictions are defined, but couldn't find anything. Is this something I could modify in some way and how exactly would I do that? One big reason why I want to modify this is because I feel like a rush with the early UUs (e.x. immortals) can completely decimate an opponent, who will have no way to counter them, otherwise.

3. One more question - do you have any idea as to whether my making these changes will negatively impact the AI by conflicting with their behavior code at all? Are they coded to expect the maluses in some way, and so will continue to behave as if they exist, even if I remove them? I realize that I may just have to try it out and see what happens of course.

Thanks so much for your patience with my questions Nexus!

 

[<Nexus>]

That is, unless the AI behavior is specifically coded around the early growth penalties and so it won't be able to adapt properly with them removed? I'll ask Nexus about that.

No, none of that.

This mod in the early game is like 33% gamey fun and 67% realism/flavor. BTS might be like 67% gamey fun, 33% realism/flavor.

I get it and yes, I'd like to have more gamey fun in the earliest part of the game but with the limitations I already have imposed.
One particular thing just came to my mind is "Settlement", and early Fort like improvement with a very low defense bonus. This would allow land grabbing without funding new cities. What do you think?

 

[<Nexus>]

most of the content (from what I've read on it in the civilopedia) looks soooooooooooo sick,

Errr... not sure what exactly you mean by "sick"

I really want to be respectful to you and all your hard work so I really hope that neither you nor Drak nor anyone else feels like I'm trying to sabotage anything/disrepect you by making my mini-modmod (MMM).

No worries! CoM also started as a small MMM
One of the best thing about Civ4 is that the creators didn't feel like "we can play their game only the way they published it and everything else is heresy".

The only thing that I think you might want to try is to give farms +1 food intrinsically and reduce food from gathering by 1, to make the level of food production consistent before and after plough. Also, that way you can keep growing a bit more after plough. Waiting until crop rotation to get a food surplus (beyond the buildings and food resources, which btw seem a bit overly rare, imo) seems way too late to me (even if though it might be realistic/flavorful).

I'll take a look at it. Added to my to do list not to forget

Aside from that, you can check out my MMM when I share it to see if you want to include any of the changes I'm making.

I will. Please consider writing a change log.

1. ^Is this something that would be possible for me to remove or is it hard coded in some way? I tried poking around in the xml and python but wasn't really sure where to look for the modifier. I totally get why you included this but I really miss the normal productivity and expansion potential for additional cities as in BTS and other mods. How exactly would I remove the malus?

It's coded in the DLL and was added by @45°38'N-13°47'E back in AND2. Since it's in the DLL I never tried to change/remove it.
Honestly, I also hated it first but after some time have learned how to deal with it and now I'm okay with it.
For me it was easier to adopt to it, than changing it.

2. The other change I'm having difficulties with is the restriction on unit production from the hunters civic. I would like to either reduce the restrictions in terms of the allowed units to be produced and/or totally remove it (I'm still trying to make up my mind about it). Once again, I tried looking for where the restrictions are defined, but couldn't find anything. Is this something I could modify in some way and how exactly would I do that? One big reason why I want to modify this is because I feel like a rush with the early UUs (e.x. immortals) can completely decimate an opponent, who will have no way to counter them, otherwise.

It is defined in the UnitInfos.xml unit by unit.
Your note about UUs is a legit one though. I was planning to go through UUs and UBs anyway but I added this to my to do list. Thanks for the highlight.
I will either make the earliest UUs replace later ones or make Hunters put some restrictions on UUs too. I'll have to see...

 

[<Nexus>]

3. One more question - do you have any idea as to whether my making these changes will negatively impact the AI by conflicting with their behavior code at all? Are they coded to expect the maluses in some way, and so will continue to behave as if they exist, even if I remove them? I realize that I may just have to try it out and see what happens of course.

No, they shouldn't, since these changes are xml things and the AI is coded to understand that. It's a different thing how well it manages though.
Python changes OTOH are not understood by the AI, so e.g. a World Wonder with a python effect is something that the AI may not be able to use. Still there are tricks and work arounds with that, e.g. if you add a WW with some military effect you can add military flavor value to the WW in its xml entry and make the AI want to build it when it's considering to build military infrastructure.

Thanks so much for your patience with my questions Nexus!

With pleasure. Who doesn't like to speak about his favorite game?!

 

[Drakarska]

I want to save the discussion of the more complex settings for another time, but my big ones are - Monarch, standard size, 9 civs, epic speed, continents. I get what you're saying about the speed but I like epic in BTS b/c it gives me more time for wars, especially intercontinental ones. Also, I feel like it's a pretty good pace in general to feel the later eras without getting bogged down in always waiting on the turn times. I'll admit that I certainly struggle a bit even in BTS with the very early game slowness on epic, but normally in BTS that goes away pretty quickly. On the other hand, it feels like you're stuck in the stone ages for actual centuries in this mod

I also play Epic or slower speeds, depending what I feel like ( Heh, lol, I have a C2C game that I've been playing for about 3 months now). Maybe it's because I've been playing Civ for so long, that I really don't pay attention to the "Arrggghhhh! So Slow!" factor. So I get what your frustration is about.

The last part that I bolded is exactly my problem with this mod. I will admit that I have ADHD which actually means I can get super focused on deep mods/games but I also tend to have less tolerance than most for slow/boring parts in terms of pacing. So this might just be my personal thing. Still, I don't feel that it should be necessary to wait until Monarchy, etc. to start being able to build a nice empire. To be fair, I will say that this mod seems to have some of the most in depth progression I've ever seen in basically any game, which is pretty cool. With that being said, I feel that cutting down on some of maluses from the civics at the beginning of the game would still preserve the majority of the sense of progression while making the game much more immediately engaging. And actually I do have a feeling that at least a small of number of other people also wouldn't be able to play this mod with somewhat faster pacing in the ancient era.

Take another look at the Despotism civic, and and sub-civics that can be associated with it. You may be pleasantly surprised
I've played OGI ( and most of the mods on these boards) and even tossed my input on his thread. While I appreciated what Orion was trying to do, especially with the random resources, it could have used a bit more clean up.. I'm not criticizing his mod at all, it was fun to play and offer input. But unfortunately, I got board with it quickly.
If your after something similar to OGI, I would recommend VIP mod. The boys and I still play that when they come over for the rare holiday visit. It's a fun mod with a lot of subtlety and nuance that will make you repeatedly check the 'Pedia.
Looks like <Nexus> answered a lot of stuff for you as well. Happy gaming,
Drak.

 

[Mr Smith]

I guess ultimately I'm really just making the mini-modmod (MMM) for myself

Check out mine in signature, I already removed growth penalties and adressed a lot of blatantly unbalanced stuff. Also crutches for broken functionality like vicinity boni reset to oblivion. Could save you a lot of time.

That would be fair, but the AI also gets the exact same benefit of me removing the growth penalties, so there's no specific advantage for me I think?

They benefit from lower base, because they are tuned to have HUGE discounts on growth from difficulty, once penalties are removed.