SGOTM 13 - One Short Straw

shyuhe · Mar 2, 2011

Ok, here are my two quick runs. Corn was surprisingly good. It mortgages our long-term capital (for better or worse) but gets our empire up and running a lot faster. It feels like a bit of a gamble though. I've marked the dates using signs (to the extent I remembered). I'll try to do a PH tonight -- sorry I tested out of order.

Mitchum · Mar 2, 2011

@ Dhoom, shyuhe and LC (EDIT: shyuhe put dates in the save, so he may have the info I need already)

I can figure out most of the information from your saves other than the dates for when each exploring WB was completed and when the galley was completed. Can you please provide that information? I will add to my table "Total exploring turns (WBs only)" so that we can easily convert the dates they are completed to how many turns of exploration are possible.

Also, in mdy's test, city #2 could have been founded much earlier (T72 rather than T81, which is when I settled it while playing his test forward to T82). This would result in quite a few more beakers and more hammers into the granary there.

@mdy If you want to take your T70 save and play it forward, settling Orleans on T72, please do so. That will give your test a better result and a more "fair" comparison to the other tests.

shyuhe · Mar 2, 2011

And here are my two PH runs. Soso is pottery--sailing, better is sailing--pottery. I have to say, I'm more partial to corn, then PH, then SIP.

Mitchum · Mar 2, 2011

@LC

It's hard for me to compare your saves because you took advantage of the Fish resource west of the little island and no one else did since it likely won't be there in the real game...

EDIT: I'm comparing city output and research on T82. Also, I've been comparing the date that each save could have settler #3 (our initial settler is settler #1) on a galley and ready to settle our third city. I've had to play many saves forward to this point, which may or may not be the best way.

LowtherCastle · Mar 2, 2011

PH V1
T53 wb3
T58 wb4
Orleans does not use fish

PH V2
T47 wb3
T57 wb4
Orleans uses fish, but big deal, roughly equivalent if it uses the clams instead

Mitchum · Mar 2, 2011

shyuhe said:
I have to say, I'm more partial to corn, then PH, then SIP.

I don't think you gave SIP a fair shot. The advantage of this approach is the ability to get city #2 up quickly by settling 3E. In your SIP test, you settled city #2 on the island to the west, which pretty much nerfs the primary advantage of SIP.

BTW, thanks for running so many tests!!! :goodjob:

EDIT: You also have 26 hammers into a barracks. It should only be 10. Those extra 16 hammers could have gone into something else...

Mitchum · Mar 2, 2011

LowtherCastle said:
PH V1
T53 wb3
T58 wb4
Orleans does not use fish

PH V2
T47 wb3
T57 wb4
Orleans uses fish, but big deal, roughly equivalent if it uses the clams instead

The issue is that in order to use the clams instead of the fish, you either have to steal one from the capital (which could throw the capital's growth off) or settle Orleans 1S on the grassland tile, which means that you lose the forest chop (which is used in your test 2 and about to be used in test 1). I'll just subtract these 30 hammers so that we can get a rough comparison, which is all we're really after at this point.

I'll include your saves in my table as best I can, but it really won't be an apples-to-apples comparison.

Finally, many of the saves did not rush for settler #3 while others did. This can easily be adjusted/optimized, but it does throw off the "Settler #3 on Galley" turn number.

LowtherCastle · Mar 2, 2011

Mitchum said:
The issue is that in order to use the clams instead of the fish, you either have to steal one from the capital (which could throw the capital's growth off) or settle Orleans 1S on the grassland tile, which means that you lose the forest chop (which is used in your test 2 and about to be used in test 1). I'll just subtract these 30 hammers so that we can get a rough comparison, which is all we're really after at this point.

I thought we were testing settling on teh hill. Anyway, then you also need to subtract any hammers from the hill mine others are making.

Mitchum · Mar 2, 2011

LowtherCastle said:
I thought we were testing settling on teh hill. Anyway, then you also need to subtract any hammers from the hill mine others are making.

Yes, I know. Some settled on the hill, others did not. This isn't a perfect test as we all know. Luckily, most of the cities settled on the island were settled near the end of the testing, so their output is negligible. At least the commerce output should be about correct.

EDIT: So don't read too much into the output of city #2.

Mitchum · Mar 2, 2011

I've updated the table in this post. Do we have enough information to pick a settling location? Should we put it to a vote?

If we need more testing to pick a settling location, who wants to test more and how much more time should we allow for it?

Spoiler :

Mitchum · Mar 2, 2011

LowtherCastle said:
V1 settles Orleans on T66. V2 on T68.

By looking at the in-game dates, you seem to have your dates listed 2 turns earlier for Orleans. Is is possible that the dates you quote above are the dates the settler is completed and then it took 2 more turns to actually plant the city? No big deal, I just wanted to make sure that I'm comparing the saves fairly.

LowtherCastle said:
V1 is stronger as long as we know where we want to settle Orleans on ~T64-65.

This is a very good point that personally I have been ignoring. I've been "assuming" that we'd settle on the island to the west of our starting island. It is highly possible that there is a much better place to settle.

So, we need to also consider how many exploring turns we have prior to settler #2 boarding the galley, which in the PH variants is 2 turns before Orleans was settled. I'll try to add this to the table in the post above.

This could be an argument for SIP as we'd have more turns (as long as we can get a WB out exploring) to find an ideal spot for city #3...

EDIT: I added a row for turns of exploration before the first off-continent settler needs to know where to go. For PH, it is Settler #2. For SIP, it is Settler #3.

mdy · Mar 2, 2011

I have attached a version of my save in which I founded a second city in the same spot as the other saves.

As we can whip a granary for 2 pop, but can only do a 1 pop whip on the lighthouse I am inclined to whip the granary, and slow build the lighthouse while regrowing our population. If we do perform an extra whip (like I tink LC did) I suspect that whipping the galley to get an earlier second city would be more useful than whipping a workboat, though I haven't tested this variant yet.

in terms of our exploration I think our immediate priority should be to devote our explorers to looking for good city sites for our next cities, and only then send them out looking for AI's/circumnavigation.

mdy · Mar 2, 2011

This is what things might look like if we whipped the galley. On balance I think I would prefer this save if our scouts have located a good second city site in time, otherwise I would be inclined to slow build the galley.

Mitchum · Mar 2, 2011

mdy said:
in terms of our exploration I think our immediate priority should be to devote our explorers to looking for good city sites for our next cities, and only then send them out looking for AI's/circumnavigation.

I agree 100%. I was going to say this earlier but figured this could be decided later, after we've figured out where to settle. We need to find spots for our cities before playing Ferdinand Magellan and sailing the 7 seas. Keep in mind that the galley will be able to help find a spot for City #3 (assuming PH capital and City #2 on an island).

I haven't looked at your saves yet, but could you please supply me with the dates that your exploring WBs were completed. EDIT: Or was it the same as your first run?

EDIT: Minor issue, but you're using the fish tile too...

Dhoomstriker · Mar 2, 2011

Mitchum said:
EDIT: You also have 26 hammers into a barracks. It should only be 10. Those extra 16 hammers could have gone into something else...

22 Hammers = an additional Warrior

Chances are that we won't need one, since Barbs so infrequently spawn on these kinds of maps, but I guess that the option is there if we really want it. Building a Warrior to completion as our first build item does slow one's growth, though, in a potentially exponential way.

mdy · Mar 2, 2011

I haven't looked at your saves yet, but could you please supply me with the dates that your exploring WBs were completed. EDIT: Or was it the same as your first run?

The workboats were all build on the same date that they were built in the previous saves. In my final save the fish workboat was built on T72.

I haven't looked at your saves yet, but could you please supply me with the dates that your exploring WBs were completed. EDIT: Or was it the same as your first run?

It could always come in useful as a cheap military police.

EDIT: Minor issue, but you're using the fish tile too...

I thought we were using this for testing? It is difficult to imagine us settling a second city which does not have at least 1 seafood resource.

Mitchum · Mar 2, 2011

mdy said:
I thought we were using this for testing? It is difficult to imagine us settling a second city which does not have at least 1 seafood resource.

I think if we did settle on the island and the fish weren't there, we'd settle 1S and use the Clam instead. That would eliminate one forest chop but enable the building of a mine. Or we would settle where you did but borrow the improved clam from the capital as Rusten suggested. That is why it's a bit misleading to compare all of these saves with respect to city #2 numbers. IIRC, I removed the +30 hammers for the chop from some of the saves but not all. I started getting confused myself... :crazyeye:

In any event, I don't think we need to get too hung up on City #2's output. The date it is settled will dictate how much commerce it provides and will be reflected in the total beakers number.

I've updated my table in post 170. I put all of the PH, Corn and SIP saves together for easier comparison. I think the data is correct. If you see an error with respect to your save (or any other) or want to add something that makes a particular save stand out, feel free to let me know.

Mitchum · Mar 2, 2011

In the interest of moving this game forward, should we take a vote?

a. SIP
b. PH
c. Corn
d. More testing

If we can narrow it down, then we can start to fine-tune one of the saves that settles in the correct spot.

shyuhe · Mar 2, 2011

I'm cool with doing a vote. My vote is for PH right now, although I will probably continue some testing on my own for corn to see if it's viable. I don't like SIP.

Mitchum · Mar 2, 2011

My vote is for PH as well.

SGOTM 13 - One Short Straw

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