SGOTM 13 - Gypsy Kings

PPP looks okay to me. Are we all supposed to take a demographics screenshot every turn? I'll be asking more questions as this gets rolling I'm sure. :D
Nah, I'm just curious about demographics for the first 20 or so turns. Can use it to try figure out in advance who the AI are, though it isn't quite an exact science. Once more cities get settled, the demographics get a lot less useful.
 
PPP looks okay to me. Are we all supposed to take a demographics screenshot every turn? I'll be asking more questions as this gets rolling I'm sure. :D

What would actually be better, and easier, is to make a new save at either the beginning or the end of each turn, just so it is consistent.
 
What would actually be better, and easier, is to make a new save at either the beginning or the end of each turn, just so it is consistent.
Well, one could change the maximum number of autosaves in the civilization.ini file to 10 or 15 or however many turns one anticipates playing in a turn set, and then archive those autosaves, in case there are questions about what happened on a particular turn. The revalent lines from the civilization.ini file are...

; The maximum number of autosaves kept in the directory before being deleted.
MaxAutoSaves = 5

; Specify the number of turns between autoSaves. 0 means no autosave.
AutoSaveInterval = 1


TEAM ALERT: I checked my AutoSaveInterval last week, and reset it to 1, and when I open the file to copy the lines above, it had been reset to 4 (which I believe is the default value). Not sure why it happened this time, but it might be a good idea for everyone to double check their civilization.ini file, especially before starting your turn set.
 
Well, one could change the maximum number of autosaves in the civilization.ini file to 10 or 15 or however many turns one anticipates playing in a turn set, and then archive those autosaves, in case there are questions about what happened on a particular turn. The revalent lines from the civilization.ini file are...
Autosaves don't work, there is some risk that when AI contact us it is different in an autosave, so in the maintenance thread I believe AlanH told us not to open autosaves unless we are recovering from a crash.
 
Well, one could change the maximum number of autosaves in the civilization.ini file to 10 or 15 or however many turns one anticipates playing in a turn set, and then archive those autosaves, in case there are questions about what happened on a particular turn. The revalent lines from the civilization.ini file are...

; The maximum number of autosaves kept in the directory before being deleted.
MaxAutoSaves = 5

; Specify the number of turns between autoSaves. 0 means no autosave.
AutoSaveInterval = 1


TEAM ALERT: I checked my AutoSaveInterval last week, and reset it to 1, and when I open the file to copy the lines above, it had been reset to 4 (which I believe is the default value). Not sure why it happened this time, but it might be a good idea for everyone to double check their civilization.ini file, especially before starting your turn set.

Autosaves don't work, there is some risk that when AI contact us it is different in an autosave, so in the maintenance thread I believe AlanH told us not to open autosaves unless we are recovering from a crash.

I have my autosaves set to 50 all the time!

I believe I also warned about unexpected changes to the .ini file earlier in this thread, and now there is evidence that it really does happen.

Maintenance thread is important, please subscribe and read it when appropriate.

That's why I suggested saving the game at the beginning or end of each turn. The more I think about it, at the END, right before you hit end turn is a great time to save. Almost all of my crash issues come IBT, if there is a save right before you end the turn, then having autosaves is actually irrelevant.
 
That's why I suggested saving the game at the beginning or end of each turn. The more I think about it, at the END, right before you hit end turn is a great time to save. Almost all of my crash issues come IBT, if there is a save right before you end the turn, then having autosaves is actually irrelevant.
When an older computer was crashing a lot, I would save after all moves and before city review, and just before hitting end turn, as I noted crash common while moving from city screen to city screen, and in the IBT (as R1 said).

If the saves are just for crash repair, then one save title called "XOTM?? running save" can be overwritten to avoid save spamming on your disk.

For our purpose, if we want turnly saves for later analysis, then of course they have to be separate files.

dV
 
Nothing happened. Highlight was moving a workboat. I got that right :goodjob:. Not even a forest growth to spoil the view. The warrior is hell-bored of his view, and would really like to take some of those rocks and build a big pointy pile. Canhecanhecanhe? :lol:

Edited autolog
Spoiler :

Turn 11/750
(forgot to turn log on yet - nothing happened)
Turn 12/750

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Buddhism founded in a distant land

Turn 13/750 (3675 BC) [03-Mar-2011 12:08:36]

Turn 14/750 (3650 BC) [03-Mar-2011 12:09:05]

Turn 15/750 (3625 BC) [03-Mar-2011 12:09:42]

Turn 16/750 (3600 BC) [03-Mar-2011 12:10:19]

Turn 17/750 (3575 BC) [03-Mar-2011 12:10:51]

Turn 18/750 (3550 BC) [03-Mar-2011 12:11:46]

Turn 19/750 (3525 BC) [03-Mar-2011 12:12:05]

After End Turn:
Clam Chowder finishes: Work Boat

Turn 20/750 (3500 BC) [03-Mar-2011 12:12:23]
Player Comment Excitement! I have a workboat to move!
A Fishing Boats was built near Clam Chowder
Research begun: Mining (1 Turns)
Research begun: Bronze Working (1 Turns)
100% Research: 11 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Mining

Turn 21/750 (3475 BC) [03-Mar-2011 12:13:25]
Player Comment zomgbored again

Turn 22/750 (3450 BC) [03-Mar-2011 12:13:53]

Turn 23/750 (3425 BC) [03-Mar-2011 12:14:46]

Turn 24/750 (3400 BC) [03-Mar-2011 12:15:44]

Turn 25/750 (3375 BC) [03-Mar-2011 12:16:11]

Turn 26/750 (3350 BC) [03-Mar-2011 12:16:47]

Turn 27/750 (3325 BC) [03-Mar-2011 12:17:16]

Turn 28/750 (3300 BC) [03-Mar-2011 12:17:34]

Turn 29/750 (3275 BC) [03-Mar-2011 12:18:07]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Hinduism founded in a distant land


That seems like a slow Hinduism time.

TGL city is also on size 2, so I guess he's building workboats too. Other AI capitals are mostly size 3, one size 4.

Attached is a zip archive of end-of-turn saved games and Demographics screenshots.

Here's the official saved game for the next player. We are one turn from building our workboat. What to do with it might vary with the build plan next turn set.
 
I had a look at the SGOTM graphs. From Culture, it seems only Unusual Suspects did not SIP. From Power, it seems Sporks have not built a workboat. Also it seems that if I'd waited another turn to finish the second workboat before uploading we'd be the clear leaders on Power :lol:
 
Slow Hinduism time would seem to indicate only 1 Spiritual leader in the game possibly.

Nice 1st set mab and super great analysis leading up to it! :goodjob:

The Roster order is

mabraham = just played :)
adrianj = UP NOW
Ronnie1 = on deck
bcool = in the hole
grifftavian = waiting
Thorn = waiting
da_Vinci = waiting
 
Save game - Not got it.

Going to have a rummage through the demographics and see what can be seen... The fact that Buddhism went EOT 12 suggests it was founded by an AI with only the base commerce of palace + city tile. Not very interesting...
 
Here is a flying camera shot from SW of the Marble looking back towards Clam Chowder. It suggests that there is definitely more than 1 forest on the island and at least 1 jungle from what I can tell. What it also says almost for certain is that there are more than 2-3 tiles on that island, making it a reasonable place for a city sooner or later.

More FC shots to come...I'm getting better at manipulating to get what I want out of it. :)
 
From due west...at least another 2 tile island in the fog. 1 tile is a hill and 1 is flat with a forest on it.
 
Rival average land area went up after T14. So the GLH owner IS Creative. They didn't gain many tiles though (6), as they still have 19 or less at that point, so they're on some pretty narrow land.

Next border pop was a gain of 7 tiles by someone after T29. This must be the founder of Buddhism, who is not the GLH owner. The buddhism founder is NOT creative, or they would have been much earlier than that. So, I think there are two creative AI, one of them as the GLH. Catherine, WillemvO or Louis. We'll know if it's Louis once we settle city #2.

Re Buddhism founder... I think that they must be spiritual. Every AI always revolts to their religion ASAP. They had 11 turns @ 2:culture:/turn, then 19 turns at 7 :culture:/turn (holy city = 5?). A non-spiritual would have taken one turn longer, wasting it in revolt. Also, the rival worst GNP/production demographics didn't show any drop after Buddhism was founded. Does the AI show a drop in these when in revolt?

On T14, someone had a 2000 increase in power from 15000 to 17000 (not related to a pop increase). Could be a warrior build at 1:hammers:/turn.

Another 2000 power increase end of T16. Too slow for a warrior build. Could be somebody learning sailing or AH.

One of the AI took 28 turns to grow to size 2. Worker first? Would make sense, at 5:hammers:/turn.
T18 somebody grew to size 3. Quite impressive how fast that is - a 4 food tile needed at least.

Only Europeans who start with Mysticism (and could found Buddhism on T12) are Holy Rome and Spain. I guess Byzantine and Celts are also European, but don't seem right for the scenario. I'm willing to bet it was Izzy.
 
One of the AI took 28 turns to grow to size 2. Worker first? Would make sense, at 5:hammers:/turn.

The top 5 cities display shows the Great Lighthouse city is at size 2 T30. So are we. So building a couple of workboats is also consistent. Whether the AI does things like we have done, I don't know.

T18 somebody grew to size 3. Quite impressive how fast that is - a 4 food tile needed at least.

Yes, a 4-food tile is needed, or a 3-food tile and a capital supplying a third food (e.g. settled on grassland corn). Since even unimproved fish are only 2:food:, it's hard to see GLH being involved (and their capital is tiny anyway). I don't think there are any natural unimproved 4-food tiles. "Wet" corn only gets the bonus once you irrigate it. Oasis or inland lake can't do it. So I think the map resources or settler location have been modified somehow.

An AI also grew to size 4 on T27. The best food production grew by two on T19, and again by one on T28. This is consistent with the fast AI working central+first for 6:food: throughout, the second tile providing 2:food:, and the third tile providing 1:food:, and no tile improvements yet (likely, since growing and producing few :hammers:). Their next growth would be due T41 if they kept growing and working these tiles. The top-cities display shows only one city with 4 population.

Only Europeans who start with Mysticism (and could found Buddhism on T12) are Holy Rome and Spain. I guess Byzantine and Celts are also European, but don't seem right for the scenario. I'm willing to bet it was Izzy.

Charlemagne can't have founded Buddhism, because you think the owner is Spiritual. Justinian and Brennus are outside chances, accordingly.

The slow Hinduism time suggests that it may have been someone teching Medi then Poly - 12+17 or so. Izzy is a leading candidate for doing that. Her tech strategy is basically hard-coded to try to found every religion. Charlemagne has often seemed to get Hinduism in my test games, and at a time consistent with immediate Polytheism, which EOT29 is not. If so, this is fairly bad news. Izzy will spread only Buddhism and we may face a holy alliance.

If so, then they're all going to hate our guts. If we get it spread to us, then they're all going to hassle us to switch to it. The AP will be Buddhist and we will get dogpiled and have to defy declarations of peace. Razing it may be a serious option - also hacks off their free :hammers: in buildings. If we happen to found Confu or Taoism, or have another religion spread to us, and want to run Pacificism, we may as well add to the hate :) Depending on the map type (whether getting Domination land and pop is feasible) we're going to have to kill at least 3-4 of the AIs outright.

OTOH if the AP universal-religion spreads to us before the war and we want to run Pacificism on that religion for the :gp:, then that's OK. We might pick up some better tech trades - even a gift from the GLH owner (Joao's offered me Masonry once). We'll still want to consider razing the AP, however.
 
I ran another test on bcool's save, doing MM option C' (3WB done optimally, then settler) and waiting for max overflow off the first settler. Then whip worker ASAP. I put out a fourth exploring WB next. I got Oracle T97, so it seems that waiting for the max overflow doesn't hurt an Oracle time much/any. All the overflow going onto the worker probably gets the worker out at a comparable time with a fast-whipped settler and waiting to whip the worker. This worker is the rate-limiting step for the fast Oracle because you need to chop one mine and build the other. Meanwhile we worked more turns of three nets, because we spent minimal turns at size 2. So slow-whipping a settler looks best to me.

My third city was 1S of stone, since the worker was bored enough to get out there and get the road pre-built. I finished the capital's infrastructure and Duckweeded T151 Pyramids.

I have 15 total pop across 7 cities, returning 41:commerce:. I have another settler built awaiting pickup and a worker timed to be ready to go with it to the marble site. I have almost finished a third worker, have two workboats poised for seafood after border pops and have a trireme out. I have already settled the cities that benefit most from access to slavery - few land tiles for generating natural hammers. I have two further city sites staked out to prevent barb spawns. Later sites are planned for a switch to Rep+Caste right about now. I have started tech and paths with a view to GLib rather than Colossus. If we'd had bronze, then I reckon Colossus would have been better than one or two of these settlers.

This looks quite comparable to bcool's report in #301, perhaps a shade better. Saved game is attached.

We seem likely to get a Great Prophet first. Settling him in the capital (for the Rep-beakers multiplied by library and academy) or in some long-term hammers city (which will get a forge) are both options - probably the former.
 

Attachments

  • T151 done Duckweed-stone pyramids.CivBeyondSwordSave
    174.2 KB · Views: 32
We have to choose our build order now with our strategy in mind. We've built most of two workboats already. So far, I think we have five leading suggestions:

  • finish WB, plant it N, grow to 2, build a third WB with PFH, plant it, grow to 3, build a fourth WB for exploring
  • finish WB, plant it SW, grow to 2, build and plant a third WB with PFH, switch to settler at size 4
  • finish WB, plant it SW, grow to 2, build and plant a third WB with PFH, switch to worker at size 4
  • finish WB, plant it N, grow to 2, start a third WB with corn, grow to 3 and 4 (working GF), switch to settler at size 4 (whipped early)
  • finish WB, plant it N, grow to 2, start a third WB with corn, grow to 3 and 4 (working GF), switch to settler at size 4 (whipped late for max overflow)

A is good for exploring, but adds about 10 turns to the time frame for everything else in the rest of the game, so I do not like it if wonders are in the game plan.

B offers a reasonable option for settling fast, and I used it with a late settler whip and fast worker whip in my saved game in the previous post.

IMO, C feels like the worker will still be too early, since there is no second city yet.

D offers the fastest chance to settle Fish Hills 3E, if we want to do that. E offers a slower new settlement, more turns working the nets, and a better capital position afterwards.

All of B, D, and E will probably whip a worker ASAP if maximum-speed Oracle in Fish Hills is the plan. Capital will need to work on a galley to keep getting value for that worker.

Tech paths may vary slightly.

It's hard to see how getting
  • a galley out to settle on the Marble without pottery to build Oracle in Clam Chowder will be better than Fish Hills Oracle
  • a galley out to settle on the Marble with pottery to build Oracle in Clam Chowder will be fast enough against the AIs (and long-term we might rather not settle on Marble)
  • a galley out to settle next to the Marble, and a worker to hook up the Marble, with/without pottery to build the Oracle in Clam Chowder will be fast enough
(supporting data in test games from R1, Griff and bcool around post #290).

So while the marble site is worth settling at some stage, I do not see it as a priority. If the stone site has a food supply (try to check with first exploring workboat) then settling it third for a Duckweed Pyramids seems pretty good.

My thoughts
As for test game immediately above - option B and third city with stone.
 
I've got the save, and opened it up to have a look. Not really a lot to see.

I'll come up with the a PPP when we have a little concensus on what is working best in the test games.
 
Here is a flying camera shot from SW of the Marble looking back towards Clam Chowder. It suggests that there is definitely more than 1 forest on the island and at least 1 jungle from what I can tell. What it also says almost for certain is that there are more than 2-3 tiles on that island, making it a reasonable place for a city sooner or later.

Great. Settling on that marble really doesn't excite me.

More FC shots to come...I'm getting better at manipulating to get what I want out of it. :)

Ctrl-arrow to "strafe" is quite useful.
 
Next border pop was a gain of 7 tiles by someone after T29. This must be the founder of Buddhism, who is not the GLH owner.

Hmm if I'm right about the Buddhist+Hindu theory, might their next border pop be early enough for us to see it? Or will settling start adding too much noise? We should also look for the border pop of the Hindu founder if they were different...
 
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