SGOTM 13 - Gypsy Kings

This can be triggered randomly in cities of at least size 8 that have no unhappy faces and no food lost to unhealthiness. The benefit is that they pay no maintenance that turn. If we grow into some massive island empire, we should definitely make sure we farm this...

I followed on from the game I reported in post #336 to 655AD to compare with bcool's earlier Pyramids / non-Pyramids games. I played my start pretending to be isolated (but did a bunch of scouting anyway), but traded when the AIs found me. I built the Great Library, beelined Music (though I am not convinced this is best) and beelined Astro.



For comparison from bcool's games:

bcool said:

Quick statistics

No early wonders game
11 cities, 57 pop, at 100% research 204 science & -75 gold / at 0% research +75 gold // edit: 17 gpp split 2 cities ///edit#2 : 298 GNP at 100% science, 74 Prod, 166 Crop

Pyramids game
8 cities, 49 pop, at 100% research 234 science & -9 gold / at 0% research +108 gold // edit: 100 gpp split 4 cities ///edit#2 : 367 GNP at 100% science, 42 Prod, 108 Crop

Click to expand...

My game:
11 cities, 61 pop, 235/-53 and 90/+78 at the respective max slider positions (However, I'm currently building a National Epic and some settlers. If I were not, 261 and +83 are more representative maximum numbers.) 840 spread over four cities. GNP 352 at 100% in science mode, 59 prod, 147 crop. I have a Great Artist on ice.

My tech looks quite similar to bcools' Pyramids game, except perhaps my 2500 on Astro. Tech pace feels good - and the machine is still not fully rolling.

At about 400AD I had a look at what going from 100%->90% slider would do. It cost 12 total for 1 per city. Sounds like a bargain.

Right now, the Colossus would have been worth +30/turn for this empire. It would have been a bit higher at various points, and will keep growing. GLib is worth 126, shortly going up to 1212 (ignoring academy effect). The GLib effect does not grow. So if we have the capacity to keep growing and working more coast tiles, the Colossus keeps getting better. However we'd then delay Astro until right on wartime.

Screenshots of capital, buildings and science chart attached. Note that I have put a bulb on Astronomy already, as well as my academy.

mabraham said:

I had a look at the SGOTM graphs. From Culture, it seems only Unusual Suspects did not SIP. From Power, it seems Sporks have not built a workboat. Also it seems that if I'd waited another turn to finish the second workboat before uploading we'd be the clear leaders on Power

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An excellent job of messing with the other teams mind!

Portend of things to come: our team graph line is Gold!

I played out bc's T10 save to T30, trying to match the uploaded actual game save. (attached) Everything looks the same, but for some reason, my test save as a score of 56, whereas the actual game save as a score of 58. Not sure why. Maybe someone can get the score to match, if it matters that much for testing purposes.

Grifftavian said:

I played out bc's T10 save to T30, trying to match the uploaded actual game save. (attached) Everything looks the same, but for some reason, my test save as a score of 56, whereas the actual game save as a score of 58. Not sure why. Maybe someone can get the score to match, if it matters that much for testing purposes.

Click to expand...

If you mouse over the name and score in the bottom right of the screen, you see a breakdown in the bottom left of the screen. Score is a sum of four components, each of which is a ratio of our achievement given the game's opinion of what is possible on the map. See this post. Since bcool's map has more land than the real save, our quantity of land is relatively more valuable in the real game.

Not much time this morning. I'm impressed with mabraham's results as always. I'm liking the whip settlers into pyramids game.

I agree that if we have copper the colossus makes sense. I'm on the fence if we don't--just because we don't know if we have to beeline astronomy or not.

The great library has one of the best pay-back times of all the wonders. The early gpp is worth a ton of and we have Marble.

thanks griff for updating the test game.

mabraham said:

We have to choose our build order now with our strategy in mind. We've built most of two workboats already. So far, I think we have five leading suggestions:

• finish WB, plant it N, grow to 2, build a third WB with PFH, plant it, grow to 3, build a fourth WB for exploring
• finish WB, plant it SW, grow to 2, build and plant a third WB with PFH, switch to settler at size 4
• finish WB, plant it SW, grow to 2, build and plant a third WB with PFH, switch to worker at size 4
• finish WB, plant it N, grow to 2, start a third WB with corn, grow to 3 and 4 (working GF), switch to settler at size 4 (whipped early)
• finish WB, plant it N, grow to 2, start a third WB with corn, grow to 3 and 4 (working GF), switch to settler at size 4 (whipped late for max overflow)

A is good for exploring, but adds about 10 turns to the time frame for everything else in the rest of the game, so I do not like it if wonders are in the game plan.

B offers a reasonable option for settling fast, and I used it with a late settler whip and fast worker whip in my saved game in the previous post.

IMO, C feels like the worker will still be too early, since there is no second city yet.

D offers the fastest chance to settle Fish Hills 3E, if we want to do that.

E offers a slower new settlement, more turns working the nets, and a better capital position afterwards.

All of B, D, and E will probably whip a worker ASAP if maximum-speed Oracle in Fish Hills is the plan. Capital will need to work on a galley to keep getting value for that worker.
The worker has at least 26 turns of work before a galley is needed. This could be extended to 32 if he chops the GF north of Clam Chowder. With the other health resources in sight, I am in favor of chopping this forest into something, what that is still to be determined.

Tech paths may vary slightly.

It's hard to see how getting

• a galley out to settle on the Marble without pottery to build Oracle in Clam Chowder will be better than Fish Hills Oracle
• a galley out to settle on the Marble with pottery to build Oracle in Clam Chowder will be fast enough against the AIs (and long-term we might rather not settle on Marble)
• a galley out to settle next to the Marble, and a worker to hook up the Marble, with/without pottery to build the Oracle in Clam Chowder will be fast enough

(supporting data in test games from R1, Griff and bcool around post #290).

So while the marble site is worth settling at some stage, I do not see it as a priority. If the stone site has a food supply (try to check with first exploring workboat) then settling it third for a Duckweed Pyramids seems pretty good.

My thoughts
As for test game immediately above - option B and third city with stone.

Click to expand...

adrianj said:

I've got the save, and opened it up to have a look. Not really a lot to see.

I'll come up with the a PPP when we have a little concensus on what is working best in the test games.

Click to expand...

The post from mab summarizes our options very well.

What we need to decide/choose falls into the strategic realm.

What are our priorities?

I think C2 very quickly, but not necessarily ASAP is MOST important. I feel that at the time we plant C2 we need to have improved tiles to work in both cities immediately. I like the option of double whipping the settler/worker. This works best with "Option E". Whip the settler with max overflow, put that overflow into the worker and whip the worker the next turn. Cap is reduced to size 1, both cities have a net to work, the worker gets started on the farm(8 turns). WB#3 gets completed while regrowing and then on to the next build. This is MY vote for the next few of turns.

After WB#3 we get back into a strategic discussion around our priorities.

Are we going wonder hunting?
Are we into serious REX mode?
How high do we prioritize exploration?

I am NOT in favor of settling on the Marble to try and speed up Oracle because it doesn't work.

The Stone island needs to be explored to find a suitable site to settle.

We will need MP's at some point in the not too distant future unless we decide to whip every time we hit size 5 (6 in cap), which is an option.

Here's an initial PPP. So much talk about tile MM, I want to make sure I have the broader goals properly outlined. (If anything, this PPP will prove how I haven't actually been play testing, therefore finding it difficult to keep up)

Planning for ~20 turns initially.

First of all...
I'm going to litter the map with "ACTUAL GAME" signs. Can somebody remind me what the shortcut for adding a player comment to the log is? ALT+E?

Techs
Bronze Working -> Pottery -> Mysticism

Civic Changes
Revolt to slavery. ASAP, or delay? Eg, if we wait for 3rd WB build we could do it while WB en route to SW clams. But does that unecessairly delay our settler/worker?

Unit Moves
If WB#4 is out during my set, first exploration destination is around stone island.
Possibly consider moving warrior back to capital if it looks like we need the MP. (sometime around the 2nd or 3rd whip?)

Builds
My preferred is option E above.
WB -> WB (part) -> Settler (whipped for max overflow) -> Worker (whipped when possible) -> WB#3 -> WB#4 for exploring.

Tile Management
Without proper testing I'm a little fuzzy on this.
Size 1: clams
Size 2: 2 clams (building WB#3)
Size 3: 2 clams + corn (still building WB #3)
Size 4: 2 clams + corn + forest (change to settler, continue until just less than 104, 2pop whip)
Size 2: 2 clams (building Worker, 1 pop whip ASAP)
Size 1: clams (continue with WB#3)

Stop Criteria
Meeting an AI.
Barb galleys. (shouldn't happen )
Edit: If we discover copper once BW comes in - should I stop to discuss? I think I will.

Other Stuff / General Thoughts
Take demographics screenshots. I'm quite enjoying them
Take manual game saves at the end of the each turn. (Presumably these can be safely opened without the same fear of IBT AI contact as autosaves?)
@mab - Buddhism founded (ie, Izzy) has already had second border pop. Third border pop I think is too far away - plus, if Hindu holy city = buddhist holy city it won't add any culture, since it wno't be their state religion. However, if Hindu != Buddhist, then we will see a border pop from another AI shortly.
@ron - Given our abundance of compared to , I definitely think chops should go into things that don't get good returns on whips, ie, wonders.

adrianj said:

<SNIP>
First of all...
I'm going to litter the map with "ACTUAL GAME" signs. Can somebody remind me what the shortcut for adding a player comment to the log is? ALT+E?

Click to expand...

No, it is ALT+S (S for Sign, I guess).

Grifftavian said:

No, it is ALT+S (S for Sign, I guess).

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Cheers Griff. The Signs I am ok with. I was referring to adding player comments to the autolog - a seperate issue.

adrianj said:

Cheers Griff. The Signs I am ok with. I was referring to adding player comments to the autolog - a seperate issue.

Click to expand...

I believe Alt+E is correct.

adrianj said:

Cheers Griff. The Signs I am ok with. I was referring to adding player comments to the autolog - a seperate issue.

Click to expand...

That's the problem with speed reading; you merge two sentences into one, and miss the meaning of both. ATL+E is the correct keyboard shortcut for adding Player Comments to the Autolog.

bcool said:

I agree that if we have copper the colossus makes sense. I'm on the fence if we don't--just because we don't know if we have to beeline astronomy or not.

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Yeah, me too. I reported the Colossus value so that we'd have some data later when we want to be making this decision. We don't have to start planning for Pyramids or Colossus until T90 or so. However, if we've Oracled, we're not likely to know a great deal more about the map by then (unless an AI finds us), so it's sensible to consider the question now, too.

Ronnie1 said:

I think C2 very quickly, but not necessarily ASAP is MOST important. I feel that at the time we plant C2 we need to have improved tiles to work in both cities immediately. I like the option of double whipping the settler/worker. This works best with "Option E". Whip the settler with max overflow, put that overflow into the worker and whip the worker the next turn. Cap is reduced to size 1, both cities have a net to work, the worker gets started on the farm(8 turns). WB#3 gets completed while regrowing and then on to the next build. This is MY vote for the next few of turns.

Click to expand...

I'm a convert to E plus worker ASAP. I played a test game and got T96 Oracle. The worker even had time to put a road on the corn for before getting the mines built. By T96 the Clam Chowder had put out third WB, granary, exploring WB, galley and settler (with one chop). The worker was out roading the stone and the city would plant T98. I'd teched Pottery->...PH->Sailing and almost done Masonry for a Pyramid attempt. Oracle->MC.

I didn't keep any early saved games from my go at "Option B" for comparison, unfortunately. This game feels better, though. I'm sure I didn't have my second settler out yet.

Ronnie1 said:

After WB#3 we get back into a strategic discussion around our priorities.

Are we going wonder hunting?
Are we into serious REX mode?
How high do we prioritize exploration?

Click to expand...

I reported a game here that tried "serious REX" without Pyramids support. The expansion was too fast. We need too much tech to support happiness (Monarchy), more trade routes (Currency), defence (MC), maybe Colossus (MC), expansion (CoL). You've got about enough time to tech down one of these lines before expansion starts to hack you down. The Oracle would make that two techs. AI contacts would help a bit (3 trade routes instead of 2, chance to trade when someone techs Alphabet). If we are isolated, I don't see a way to get the other ones without Oracle->MC->forge->Colossus, or Oracle->MC->triple-wonder, or Oracle->MC->Pyramids.

Exploration is also a key priority. I recommend an exploring WB very soon after worker in the capital, and very soon after the fish WB from Fish Hills. One of those "goes long" and the other looks for settlement sites. The galley is useful too.

Ronnie1 said:

The Stone island needs to be explored to find a suitable site to settle.

Click to expand...

Yep. A fourth WB very soon after the worker-whip is probably a good idea. Even ahead of the granary...

Ronnie1 said:

We will need MP's at some point in the not too distant future unless we decide to whip every time we hit size 5 (6 in cap), which is an option.

Click to expand...

I think we need an open mind here. An MP in Fish Hills has been necessary in none of my T96-ish Oracle games. It's happy at size 4, and all it does is grow to 4, whip a granary, grow to 4, whip an Oracle. Now it's got time to get out its fish-WB and now an MP becomes a serious option.

adrianj said:

Here's an initial PPP. So much talk about tile MM, I want to make sure I have the broader goals properly outlined. (If anything, this PPP will prove how I haven't actually been play testing, therefore finding it difficult to keep up)

Planning for ~20 turns initially.

First of all...
I'm going to litter the map with "ACTUAL GAME" signs. Can somebody remind me what the shortcut for adding a player comment to the log is? ALT+E?

Click to expand...

Yeah good thought. I'd meant to do that, but forgot. Please place the signs on water one square south of some tile that we won't put a city on (e.g. more water, mountain). This will stop the display being too busy in relevant areas.

Alt-E does comments.

adrianj said:

Techs
Bronze Working -> Pottery -> Mysticism

Civic Changes
Revolt to slavery. ASAP, or delay? Eg, if we wait for 3rd WB build we could do it while WB en route to SW clams. But does that unecessairly delay our settler/worker?

Click to expand...

If option E, we're not finishing the third workboat until T67 or so. BW will arrive T40. Advantageous times to revolt are before the value of the worked tiles go up, i.e. before population growth and before settling. Under option E, we grow to size 4 on T39 and start building the settler, so we have to revolt at size 4 to get a settler whipped.

adrianj said:

Unit Moves
If WB#4 is out during my set, first exploration destination is around stone island.
Possibly consider moving warrior back to capital if it looks like we need the MP. (sometime around the 2nd or 3rd whip?)

Click to expand...

Warrior should head to the capital once the new city plants, since maximising vision is his only useful function for ages.

adrianj said:

Builds
My preferred is option E above.
WB -> WB (part) -> Settler (whipped for max overflow) -> Worker (whipped when possible) -> WB#3 -> WB#4 for exploring.

Tile Management
Without proper testing I'm a little fuzzy on this.
Size 1: clams
Size 2: 2 clams (building WB#3)
Size 3: 2 clams + corn (still building WB #3)
Size 4: 2 clams + corn + forest (change to settler, continue until just less than 104, 2pop whip)
Size 2: 2 clams (building Worker, 1 pop whip ASAP)
Size 1: clams (continue with WB#3)

Click to expand...

Looks right for option E. Settler will have 99 on it at whip time T51. Worker whip will be two turns later.

adrianj said:

Stop Criteria
Meeting an AI.
Barb galleys. (shouldn't happen )
Edit: If we discover copper once BW comes in - should I stop to discuss? I think I will.

Click to expand...

I suggest we stop and upload the save at the start of T51, before we whip the settler. That gives about 20 turns in the set and IMO minimizes the ability of other teams to work out from the graphs that we've whipped out a settler this fast.

adrianj said:

Other Stuff / General Thoughts
Take demographics screenshots. I'm quite enjoying them
Take manual game saves at the end of the each turn. (Presumably these can be safely opened without the same fear of IBT AI contact as autosaves?)

Click to expand...

Yes, that's the point. Also, sometimes the Civ .ini file resets itself, and autosaves might not be every turn... Mine's done it twice in the last month. I now have a copy of the file how I like it, ready to replace when it next happens

adrianj said:

@mab - Buddhism founded (ie, Izzy) has already had second border pop. Third border pop I think is too far away - plus, if Hindu holy city = buddhist holy city it won't add any culture, since it wno't be their state religion. However, if Hindu != Buddhist, then we will see a border pop from another AI shortly.

Click to expand...

Yeah. T41 I estimate. It will show up in the average, but not in the leading size.

adrianj said:

@ron - Given our abundance of compared to , I definitely think chops should go into things that don't get good returns on whips, ie, wonders.

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... or things that lead to good returns on wonders. I think that the first chop should go onto the Oracle, and the second to make sure that galley+settler arrive very close to each other, shortly after the fourth WB has gone scouting. If they go and settle stone, then that chop means we get the -doubling on the Pyramids faster.

mab said everything very well up there in post #354.

I concur completely!

@aj - PPP looks good to me! Concur with stopping for discussion we we discover nearby Copper resource.

I like mab's idea about posting a save just before the Settler whip. Keep the other teams guessing!

PPP looks good to me. I think we at least pause for the copper if it appears as well. I'm wondering if the copper is 3E and the Iron is on the GH to the west. Anyone up for a wager where the copper is?

bcool said:

PPP looks good to me. I think we at least pause for the copper if it appears as well. I'm wondering if the copper is 3E and the Iron is on the GH to the west. Anyone up for a wager where the copper is?

Click to expand...

If I were a bettin man....I'd bet with bc on this one...3E!

If I were betting, I would bet there is NO copper to be seen.

Sounds like most are in agreement with the PPP. I'll play around with the test save for a little while to get a feel for it. Will probably play Sunday evening NZ time (about 30 hours from this post)

Where would an map maker put Copper? On the 1-tile island 3S of Capitol!