The Missing Combos - Filling the Gaps in BTS

Optical

Optical

The Fall of the Eleventh
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There are 3 trait combos that have no leader in plain BTS:

Cre/Cha
Pro/Org
Ind/Phi

I have some ideas for who I could add them as in my personal mod but I'd like to hear what historical leaders other people think fit the combos best.

I have:

Sinchi Roca (Cre/Cha) of Inca
Meiji (Ind/Phi) of Japan
Kukulcan (Pro/Org) of Maya

So, what do you guys think would suit?
 
Wasn't Kukulcan the Quetzalcoatl of the Mayas? A feathered snake god or something?
 
i think nebuchadnezzar ii of babylon could be pro/org. he supposedly built both the mede wall and the hanging gardens. the mede wall would of course be a protective structure, so that would make sense, also, bowmen.
 
Indeed, Kukulcán is a god, the feathered snake as it has been stated before. He is the "equivalent" of the Aztecs Quetzalcóatl, one could say.

So a god as a leader would be weird :mischief:
 
An Ind/Phi leader was not included due to being over-powered, I think it says so at the back of the Civ IV (vanilla) manual.
 
west india man said:
An Ind/Phi leader was not included due to being over-powered, I think it says so at the back of the Civ IV (vanilla) manual.
Click to expand...

It would be for an OCC. Their both fairly good traits but I wouldn't think they were overpowered in a normal game.
 
Elizabeth is already over-powered on Earth 18, give her Ind and she'll be able to win cultural very easily, especially if she takes Paris.
 
General Olaf said:
There are 3 trait combos that have no leader in plain BTS:

Cre/Cha
Pro/Org
Ind/Phi

I have some ideas for who I could add them as in my personal mod but I'd like to hear what historical leaders other people think fit the combos best.

I have:

Sinchi Roca (Cre/Cha) of Inca
Meiji (Ind/Phi) of Japan
Kukulcan (Pro/Org) of Maya

So, what do you guys think would suit?
Click to expand...
Smoking Frog of Maya as Cre/Cha. If the interpretation in The Forest of Kings is correct, he was a warlord of Tikal (and probably brother of Tikal's king) who introduced the atlatl and "total" war into the Mayan part of Mexico from the north. Cha would represent his military side, and Cre the propgandizing he did after his conquest of Tikal's traditional rival.
 
Cre/Cha: Cao Cao. Even the initials fits.

The Austrians deserve a leader, though he'll have to be added to HRE; Spain should get another too, perhaps. The native americans already have more leaders than they should.
 
Wait, my bad: I put Constantine as Ind/Phi, not Meiji. Thought that didn't sound right.

Anyway, where would Sinchi go then? I feel that SR fits Cre/Cha perfect, but these are awesome ideas. What Mayan leader would fit Pro/Org? The main purpose of my personal mod is to provide 2-4 leaders per civ, add a couple new ones, and i think 5 new traits. Not to mention filling these gaps. Personally, also, I don't think Ind/Phi is OP. You might get, what, 5-10 wonders in a game? Less if you're warmongering. To use the combo to its full potential you almost lose the use of the UU. IMHO Byzantines are one of the more war-focused civs and that may nerf the awesome-power of the trait combo.

Also, for OCC: Other civs, eg Inca, are clearly OP in certain situations, obviously meaning the famed Quechua rush. For, eg. a GOTM OCC playing any Ind/Phi leader, if one existed, would probably just be outlawed. Plus, isn't Fin/Phi Elizabeth a bit over-the-top loaded as well? A solution for the AI could be having it play like a Sitting Bull or a Tokugawa :lol: ...
 
Mel32 said:
So a god as a leader would be weird :mischief:
Click to expand...

Well, that would explain how he/she manages to live from 6000 BC to 2050 AD or later. ;)
 
Ramesses and Gilgamesh were "gods."
 
west india man said:
An Ind/Phi leader was not included due to being over-powered, I think it says so at the back of the Civ IV (vanilla) manual.
Click to expand...

Remember, this is coming from the same people who nerfed mid-late game units but left praetorians, quecha, skirmishers, war chariots, etc untouched.

IND/PHI sounds impressive on paper. Were any actual stats taken to suggest stronger performance from it than other trait combos? I can almost 100% guarantee they were not. I do 100% guarantee it was not comprehensively re-analyzed for BTS; they didn't even fix control/shift/alt clicking to select units in those years timeframe.

Nobody knows or has any proof that ANY trait combo is overpowered. Frankly the assertion given the knowledge base is ridiculous. Are you going to tell me IND/PHI with a trash UU/UB would be more overpowering than IND/FIN or PHI/SPI with their uniques for example? How about IND/SPI with the best normal-speed rush unit in the game? Yes, you'd be able to turn up some GPP early on using wonders. Pericles can get very early GPP too...wonders have an opportunity cost such that it's hard to believe the PHI benefit would make it OP...and NOBODY, not once person here knows it's overpowered. People saying otherwise are blowing hot air, with only some of it coming out of their mouth.
 
Having played quite a few games as IND/PHI, I can say that the only way firaxis were justified in thinking it overpowered is if they were considering OCC. It would be nice to see some IND/PHI forum games and get other players' experiences though.
 
babar said:
Having played quite a few games as IND/PHI, I can say that the only way firaxis were justified in thinking it overpowered is if they were considering OCC. It would be nice to see some IND/PHI forum games and get other players' experiences though.
Click to expand...

A trait combo being a little stronger than other options in a non-standard, challenge format is hardly grounds for avoiding it entirely :p. Firaxis wasn't justified in thinking, because it wasn't thinking :lol:.
 
babar said:
Having played quite a few games as IND/PHI, I can say that the only way firaxis were justified in thinking it overpowered is if they were considering OCC. It would be nice to see some IND/PHI forum games and get other players' experiences though.
Click to expand...
To that end, I've created a small mod: Field Test: Phi/Ind Leaders with two Phi/Ind leaders. Shah Jahan I has been added to India, and a new civilization, Palmyra, lead by Zenobia has also been added. Palmyra has no UB or UU, so players wanting to test the alleged power of the Phi/Ind trait combo without the potential bias of UBs or UUs may do so. Shah Jahan was added so people who want to play with a UU and UB can. Other than the changes mentioned above, gameplay is unchanged.

Download here
 
TheMeInTeam said:
A trait combo being a little stronger than other options in a non-standard, challenge format is hardly grounds for avoiding it entirely :p. Firaxis wasn't justified in thinking, because it wasn't thinking :lol:.
Click to expand...

To be fair, it is stronger in OCC to the point of being properly overpowered, but I agree, Firaxis probably tested it once, got a lucky start, and that's why there is no IND/PHI.

@A Hamster, I usually can't run mods because of OSX and the way I have BAT set up. I use Roosevelt because he doesn't really have any uniques anyway.
 
I have to say I enjoy TMIT vociferously insisting that no one could know whether IND/PHI is overpowered, while making 100% guarantees about what sorts of testing Firaxis did and did not do. Not that I disagree on either point, but that's quite the epistemological asymmetry. :p
 
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