Nationalism-fueled history

Thats odd, I thought touching wood made you crazy, not rocks.

I don't know I kind of tuned it out when my sixth grade Earth Science teacher started lecturing about it. I liked the teacher too as a teacher up until that point. Good person, but that kind of view just ruins her as a teacher in my mind. We should try to stay on topic anyways. I don't have anymore nationalism fueled history from my country that I myself have encountered so somebody else move this topic back on topic.

Joecoolyo said:

If you go to any country of the world, you're going to see lessons unfold in the same way. You're not going to see English kids learning about tragedies during the Boer War when they are young

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No, but we do learn about how we are bad people (because our forefathers had the evil British Empire) drummed in to us from an early age. And they also like to downplay the British Empire's role in stamping out the international slave trade in favour of amplifying its role in participating in it. I've known people who at the end of school thought the only nations who'd participated in the slave trade were Britain and the US (due to once being a colony of the former).

I don't remember being taught that the British were good or bad. Evidently I went to a much more boring school than everyone else.

My wife used to be an education consultant and encountered some quite astonishingly bad teachers in some quite depressingly bad schools, and neither religion nor nationalism had anything to do with them. However, that's even less on-topic.

I didn't get that either, and I went to school at almost exactly the same time as Virote. I suppose it's possible that the Scots are just far more relaxed about the whole thing, but I think it's more likely that he's imposing the quirks of his own education onto the education system as a whole.

My school was built right next to a stone archway commemorating the Emancipation (and I live in the West Country), so I can't see I've come across that particular villification before.

Plotinus said:

I don't remember being taught that the British were good or bad. Evidently I went to a much more boring school than everyone else.

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Too bad, what's history without moralism?

Leoreth said:

Too bad, what's history without moralism?

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History?

taillesskangaru said:

History?

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Accurate?

Useful?

Geez guys, way to make a moralist feel unwelcome.

If I wanted to know about the truth, good, and evil, I would've taken philosophy.

I wanted to know the facts, so I studied history.

history has almost nothing to do with facts. if anything knowing the 'facts' is the antithesis of history as currently practiced

That's why history is oftentimes considered one of the Humanities, not a hard science.

It's based on interpretation.

correct you sir win a cookie

History is to facts what Civ is to history.

this nationalistic craze about the enemy states that look so far into the future and prepare every trap in advance is injustifiable while it is equally and perfectly feasible to accuse great powers . For taking advantage of incidents and accidents . Mid 1990s my country was sorta going Islamist yet there was a little hiccup in the master plan ; Somalia . The future neo-Umayyads thought they were to gain autonomous influence around the peninsula , Americans thought they had a right in any maritime choke-point . Which meant Bin Ladin was funded against the West , marking his break from the guidance of the wise ones . One single sentence similar to the last one you just read got this poster banned in a forum , after a week of attendence and ı think 4 posts . One must avoid ex-intelligence analyst moderators , ı presume . The fallout in Turkey was predictable , Military kicked out the elected goverment , the mood was that they were ready to fight the "Backwardness" for the next thousand years . Yeah , it didn't take that much for the younger members of that goverment to win the next elections . With a certain amount of help of the guy who came from the World Bank to save the economy and ruin the centre Right and Left , with the draconian measures forced on , you know , to save the economy .

americans have been going at this Green Belt thing for so long that one forgets they pushed Shah off his throne to cause a panic of sorts to make the oil empire acceptable . They don't really get the "yeah , right" line either . Anyhow the plan for Turkey was that the elected goverment would be kept at loggerheads with the military which was to be leashed with the membership talks with EU . Until the time came . Post 2000 , the seperatists were decisively supported under the guise of using them against Iran and with the expectation we would rush to support El Kaide , if we were men enough . As if they didn't already know we were soooo effeminate .

it didn't suit everybody . The intellectuals for one . This old Turkey was worthless and it would remain in existance if in equilibrium . Enter Hırant Dink , the Armenian journalist who could be Turkish enough to make a mark in the undercurrents of the Left . EU norms and the talks were a gift from God , a rather more Liberal country could be made if some reconsideration could be enforced . That's how he came up with a newspaper article that talked of the poisonous blood in the Turkish veins . There would be a reaction and people especially the Nationalists would see the Europeans didn't like rabid racism and it would be better off for Turks to catch up with the age . It was clear his Turkish friends/acquitances would betray him in the end , even before he sat to write the article , yet it would be a risk for the assets to contact him . So the Church was put into play to pass the warning . He was immediately called to the office of the aide of the governor of Istanbul and given a royal chewing . That resulted in yet another newspaper article , he was a Leftist , had ignored the Church for his adult life and he made no mention of it , that real reason for the dressdown . He was firmly on track , there is no reason for determination to be limited only to Turks .

he was shot dead .



on a cold but dry winter day .

the sight is so disturbing for those people whom CFC would understand as the Turkish Nationalists . Anybody who lives in Turkey yet dares to oppose the good Turkish character must be doing it because he is either a besterd of foreigners or paid money by foreigners . Yet here was the traitor who was selling the country and he didn't have a good pair of shoes ? ı have been in altercations with people who really think all the journos who print this or show it on TV are paid by enemy states .

10% at least ? By all means .

the killer was a 17 year old . He was all fired up by the thrill of the "work" , he would just disappear and all the pigs in Turkey would tremble in fear . Didn't turn out that way . People were deployed in the field . And please remember this . The State TV warned the local population not to cooperate with the investigation The father of the killer was called to local security offices and told to turn in his son , who was on a bus at the time moving to his home town on the BlackSea coast , accompanied by a Gendarmarie agent who was told to stop anybody who remotely looked like capable of losing the murderer . There was no doubt he would be made to talk . The kid didn't care , he was arrested enroute and taken to a police station for safekeeping and to be pictured in front of the Flag in some heroic pose , with full hospitality . He would demand the Israeli President to send his daughter to him to relieve the pressures of jail life , when he first appeared in court . It doesn't exactly matter that he wouldn't be able to spell the name of the Israeli president .

and then ? History changed ... Some shock was transmitted to foreign capitals , capacity was beyond expected and some talking was done . Which resulted in the meeting of the PM and the Chief of Staff in an ex-Ottoman palace , there was a dossier . Press here thinks it was about the spending habits of the wife of CoS . Yes , Turkey , the nation in arms where every citizen was born a soldier , the glorious country where military reigned supreme was transformed overnight . Kinda . To prevent any ugly surprises when the time comes , military was pruned . Things happen real fast when every Western country agrees to pool their sources and combine their influence , journos and let's say agents . There must be about 60 generals and admirals in jail right now .Directly or indirectly because of one single slain Armenian . Never doubt his family would prefer him still alive . And they are limited to complaining that investigations are still hampered and court judgement will remain incomplete .

why not ? He was to be the signal act in transforming Turkish Nationalism and rabid murderism ; he is now one among many in the sins of military . And the coalition who didn't serve the notion of being a Turk by shooting him in the back in front of his newspaper was across the political spectrum and various forms of security apparatus .

doubts linger . Yet it is human nature to think the best about own character and capabilities . The ascendants in Turkey easily gloss over the crazy notion that as soon as somebody in Riyadh breaks wind without prior American authorization in duplicate signed papers , things might turn to "normal" and gallows might be awaitin' ... Just like 50 years ago or the first paragraph here .

Can you please stop spamming this thread?

coalition warfare is tough . One must respect the partners , although the general form consists only paying lip-service and one way street conduct . Alfa Prime benefits ; rest of the herd only serves . And it is always the general form that happens to Turks . Take Lawrence and his escapades . He was of course involved in the Kut operation that aimed to bribe the Ottoman command so that General Towsend and his artillery could be retrieved . Germans were ambigious in Berlin , one the one hand der evil Englischer deserved to reside in 3/4 of Hell , on the other any kind of increased Ottoman prestige would become troublesome for the postwar re-arrangement that would see the Ottoman Empire dissolved . Germany would naturally be the sole benefactor with various Arab colonies and "the" case was closed . And it was widespread , the relevant Osprey title says how the two AWOLs from the Ottoman Army started the talks on the Arab revolt with the absolute certainity that Berlin was ready to play , the British had to pay accordingly .

making a detour , to fit the thread if nothing else , Turkish history has some special views on Lawrence and his exploits . The very first one is of course he was small fry despite what all the rest of the world says . Yet the greatness of his hatred for the Turks never gets forgotten . When Peter O'Toole was making waves , the movie was banned for its awkward even "racist" portrayal of the Turks . Though it was ( just of course ) the Cold War ; Ankara wouldn't like new generations to see what our dear Allies had been doing to us . Something that came up when ı was chatting with my mother as there was news on TV and the subject was the Arab Spring , talk finally drifting to the rebellion in Hicaz . On my father's side an uncle had voluntereed and had been sent to Yemen or thereabouts sparking some interest in the family and it turned out she was aware of a movie where the bloody murderous British officer rode everywhere with a red flag . Guess Cold War requirements made it necessary to underline that only Commies could be so savage and the film was well known in the Turkish world as a product of word of mouth .

the thing of course was still absent in the 1990s showing in the State TV , after some 35 or so years . The thing being whatever happened in Deraa . ı understand it was first the Governor and this has been hotly contested in Turkey , son of the guy saying his father had gone bald early , resembling a lightbulb as "the French say" at the age of 23 and didn't fit Lawrence's description of a guy with brush like hair . The guy was not Governor but a lesser official at the time responsible for Havran , a location in the same area . Anyhow , Lawrence was not caught in 1917 but December 1916 , a year earlier and got out somehow . Why did he then accuse Hacim Bey ? According to his son , he failed to get the Havran Arabs to rise in rebellion and he was after revenge . It is a line of argument that doesn't surprise one right wing online source ı came across online , being illegitimate always leads to sexual perversions and telling lies .

and it is scientifically supported . Carbon dating in Turkish websites differentiate between days and location , as shown by the fact that on the 18th of November , Lawrence was in the castle of Azrak , not some jail in Deraa . Won't comment , my class expertise is on phaser banks and turbolaser turrets .

that is probably why the relevant Osprey title tells of the "Turkish commander " . And the mistreatment then becomes the reason of entertainment , "his alleged post-war masochistic practices" . Well , there was no whipping in the first place . Gertrude [Bell] is supposed to have described Lawrence as being able "to ignite fires in cold rooms" . Won't deny it , as he was generally the conversion starter and the gift that got things going . No , it is not diplomatic finesse to write the Arab rebellion had already started before he arrived but rather historical fact .

this was yet another talking session as per paragraph one . And it was going on kinda real amicable , though it was in fact delayed , his cover in penetration in hostile territory , the raid on Yarmuk Valley , had gone wrong and the simultanenous British offensive made it hard for the counterparts to leave their posts and indulge . All was well , until the German represantative tasked with his safety arrived , with a typical specimen of Turkish obnoxiousness in tow . Newcomers were unexpected and Lawrence did claim to be a Circassian . It was answered by the beating , concentrated on the face . (This will be countered by the newsreels that show him behind Allenby in Kudüs within a fortnight .)

the German was not pleased but he was alone . The specimen said he didn't know the guy was in the service of His Majesties , the King of England . At least in the first minute . The German knew he was lying . On the other hand he also knew it wouldn't be exactly a nice thing to remind there and then Berlin and London were in talks in Switzerland about ending the war and , uhm , taking some advantage of the fall of Russia . Caporetto had dented the Allied morale , it would surely be balanced by Jerusalem and all ; Berlin had already conceded to the Balfour Declaration .

do not take it as an example of homophobic stance ; anyone caught in underwear in midday was taken out to the yard and given preferential treatment .

nothing happens in a vacuum , though ı am also famous for wild strayals off-topic . 22 November is just after Cambrai , a super duper tank raid designed to show what will happen to Germans if they don't see the light soon enough . The myths of armoured warfare have made it some kind of a mistake that British generalship strove to decide the war in one swift stroke instead of Fuller's wise counsel to make small pinpricks to demoralise Germans . Actually no , Fuller's plans were conciously modified thoughout the summer and he was himself involved in General Harper's decision to keep Highlander infantry behind the tanks . Because the Flesquires village had somehow survived until then without being flattened by artillery and it was to be a live test for tanks in urban environment . Ruhr Valley in the Spring was the idea of some optimists . London had some people who thought there would be no need for that , due to the Swiss affair . And while at it one can also correct the the lone gunner thing , he was observed running to the village after his dastardly acts . He was once useful to the advocates of armour ; thick headed Infantry general had not listened to bright tankers and failed the entire offensive . Later on , marking from one day in 1944 when a rechambered FK16 knocked out ten Shermans in France he started to fade . His score was called into question and the tank casualties were moved around to locations on the map that was impossible to reach from a single gun-pit . Unbelieveable ? Well , RAF was famous in the Sixties for bodily moving the entire continent of Australia a thousand miles or more in order to make their calculations correct to deny carriers to RN .

the point would be that the British chest thumping fell short , Lawrence reported negatively as well , torpedoing the one area the deals were 95% cast , delegations left Switzerland and the Germans counter-attacked in the Cambrai by the 30th . Their success led them to believe they had a couple of new tricks to defeat the Allies in France and once this was done , practically the rest of the Euroasia was theirs to conquer at their own pace .

oh pray , how did he crossed the distance between Deraa and Azraq , since critics are of the opinion that it was impossible for Lawrence to cover in the timeframe he mentions ? There is something called motor transport , provided by the German detailed to protect Lawrence . And Lawrence showed his gratitude by having 250 Germans and Austrians POWs machinegunned . It takes something special for an officer of a Western army that pursues broken Orientals to hit a fellow officer , as happened in the hospital of Damascus , yet he was at it from the day he arrived in the desert .

was it sabotage ? Germans being in peace talks and we are the ball they are kicking around to settle the matter ? It certainly wouldn't mean peace for us , Talat's Turkey and Cemal's Syria would surely squabble over who would have Konya for decades . Kemal's Turkey was more preferable in the end , he was a staunch womanizer and even before November 1917 , he was definitely for a representative Monarchy or even Republic . It was only the bloodlust that wanted us dead and the oilgreed that needed Kerkük / Musul .

it has been said of the Turk that when he slaps somebody it is heard in China . It is true , if the event takes place in China .

a swing to present day is in order ; the author of the relevant Osprey title wonders on the fascination the generation of War on Terror holds for Lawrence . He was the attacker , the "terrorist" if you will , what lessons he can teach from the grave to the defender ? So simple , if you are in the know , it shows how easy it is to beat us . No need to fight the Turkish Colossus , not that there is anything like that , just hit and run , we will never know what hit us . Really amusing indeed . Amusing for the US to complain of being stabbed in the back by an Ally . As if it hasn't been the talk in coffeehouses of Turkey since December 2001 where Bin Ladin was . A very nice way to change the subject and dislocate empty bellyaching . Do not expect "Turkish help" in the invasion of Pakistan , if there is a need we will invade Pakistan ourselves . After we are done with the US , of course . Or maybe not . What is wrong with parallel operations ?

late Twenties was when Afghans developed an interest in this secular Turkish experiment , Lawrence was spotted just across the border . Reading blogs ı fancy he would have been right at home among Pashtuns . Now that we are into myths let me correct this one , too . No old Arab ever told Al-Aurans to be careful with the kids , cause you know he didn't die in that accident , apart from in glowing obituaries . The German safekeeper had not forgotten him , and the hate in the eyes of the specimen , as Lawrence got into the car in that November morning in a German uniform to prevent long distance sniping . This was so outdated in 1930s ...

trust me , am soo fun . Can't help avoiding the feeling that these kinda new perspectives on history are not that believeable ?

In Ohio, we have a growthing Asian community which dominates the local schools.

Cue neo-fascist Asian-only clubs, Chinese Checkers, and meetings where everyone else is taught that the Chinese invented everything.

Thankfully, the process is stalled at my school.