Ideas, Requests, and Feedback

How about implementing a settler system for tribes instead of just having them pop-up out of nowhere? These would be 2-3 movement units that spawn in lairs after a certain time period, and, once spawned, stops the spawning of creatures from that lair for the next 5-10 turns. They would also have no defense, so that a lair with defenders can't just plop out of Oblivion next to your exploration units.

The lair's units would escort this settler/tribesman unit of course...

I don't know if the team's planning anything on this for the next revision, but I'd like to suggest that the Infernals' world spell be improved/changed/something. Right now it's pretty useless, at least when used by an Infernal AI against a human player.

What I've seen happen against me is the Infernals cast Hyborem's Whisper and take one of my AV cities, but they're invariably on a far-away continent and therefore can't possibly defend the city they've taken. I demand that Hyborem liberate the city, he refuses, then I declare war and walk in. World spell wasted.

I know the mod is balanced at the level of civs as a whole rather than individual civ features (e.g., world spells, UUs, UBs), but I've rarely seen the Infernals become a superpower, so I think they could use a better spell.

A few possibilities I'll suggest:

1) A spell that's sort of the reverse of the Mercurian world spell, causing damage to all Angel units in the world.

2) A spell that causes varying levels of damage, up to and including death, to all units in the world that have one of the "good" religions: Order, Empyrean, RoK. Maybe combine this with #1. One downside of this would be that it would help the Mercurians, as some of the dead units would go on to serve the Mercurians.

3) A spell that gives the Infernals one unit for each unit in the world that has one of the "evil" religions: AV, OO, or Esus.

4) A spell that causes varying levels of damage, up to and including death, to all units in the game that have one of the three "evil" religions. This might be more consistent with the mechanic by which the Infernals gain units.

Anyway, just a few thoughts. The main idea is that the Infernals need a more useful World Spell, so I hope the team will think about what can be done there.

Hmm... Given our plans for hell, him taking a city in your territory could well become a lasting headache even if you do take it back. Couple in how we plan for the Infernals themselves to interact with Hell... We'll see once that's all done, but I'd think few changes would have to be made to the spell, just small tweaks such as starting the city with some stronger units.

Edit: Also, the downside to 2 will cease to be important. We're changing how angels spawn, the current mechanic is ridiculous in terms of gameplay (Mercurians get the best benefit from killing their allies? What?). They'll still have Angels, but change how they are gained. Not such a big deal with the Infernals, so they'll likely keep something similar to what they have now for Manes.

I considered the possibility of giving the Infernals some stronger units in the newly-captured city, but taking the "fun factor" into account, I think that would be no fun at all for the player whose city was taken. You spend how many turns building up a city, only to lose it without a fight and, if it's garrisoned by a bunch of strong units, maybe not being able to take it back -- I think that would be really frustrating for a lot of players, particularly if the lost city had one or more World or National Wonders in it.

So that's why I was trying to come up with alternatives for the Infernal world spell, something that opposing players wouldn't find frustrating. Just asking you to consider some other possibilities.

If you're going to keep the current world spell, maybe use it as a kind of balancing mechanism, having the AI Infernals target a city of the player with the highest score at the time?

Well, like I said; Viewed from the point of view of the Infernals, it likely only needs small tweaks once everything else is done.

You're right about the view from OTHER players, so it may well be changed... But then, most world spells are annoying to the other players (IE: Stasis, World Break). I'm not quite sure that that metric should be applied too strongly, as a result.

Perhaps the option of gaining peace with the Demon faction could be an option if the player is under AV.

Well, a spell like Stasis you can just wait out, and have your workers continue building improvements in the meantime so that when you come out of Stasis your cities are set to boom. And something like Raging Seas you can send in your workers to rebuild improvements. So they're annoying, yes, but not quite the same as losing a city with several levels of the Altar of the Luonnotar in it and having to rebuild all that from scratch.

Anyway, as with other upcoming changes you've described, I won't be able to fully comment until I see how it operates in actual game-play. Just whatever you do, please don't lose sight of the "fun factor."

Randomness said:

Perhaps the option of gaining peace with the Demon faction could be an option if the player is under AV.

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That happens once you research Infernal Pact. I just found that out in my current game: after I researched Infernal Pact I got the message "You have made peace with Agares."

Nor'easter said:

That happens once you research Infernal Pact. I just found that out in my current game: after I researched Infernal Pact I got the message "You have made peace with Agares."

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If you're the Sheaim. Otherwise you have to build the somewhat costly Pax Diablos ritual. (And by "somewhat costly" I mean "Goodbye city.")

Randomness said:

Perhaps the option of gaining peace with the Demon faction could be an option if the player is under AV.

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"One man's trash is another man's treasure."

Somehow, I don't find the idea of having demons freely roam throughout your cities, destroying your privateers as a good thing...and you still deal with the penalties from the horseman. Not that good of a deal in retrospect.

By the way, thanks for skipping over my post again.

Three of your four suggestions are the blight. The fourth is majorly op.

Krieger66 said:

By the way, thanks for skipping over my post again.

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Didn't really intend to, I'd read your post while I was busy and read his while I wasn't, is all.

That said: No such mechanic would be forthcoming, honestly, as it is FAR simpler to just plop a lair down on a likely tile than write AI able to take a settler unit from one lair, to a suitable location, in a way that isn't completely mindless (IE, leads to discovering regions that are nothing BUT barb lairs) or result in a feedback loop (locusts).

Valkrionn said:

Well, like I said; Viewed from the point of view of the Infernals, it likely only needs small tweaks once everything else is done.

You're right about the view from OTHER players, so it may well be changed... But then, most world spells are annoying to the other players (IE: Stasis, World Break). I'm not quite sure that that metric should be applied too strongly, as a result.

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One significant difference between Hyborem's Whisper versus other world spells such as Stasis, World Break, River of Blood, Raging Seas, or Arcane Lacuna, is that those other spells adversely affect all other players more or less equally. The Infernal world spell, by contrast, adversely affects only a single opposing player, so in that sense it seems unbalanced.

Anyway, I've offered my opinion on this, so will leave it up to you and the team at this point. And obviously will have to see how it plays in combination with the other changes you'll be making in the next version.

One simple improvement for the Hyborem's Whisper spell might for the Infernals to take control not only of the city itself, but also of all the units in the city.

MagisterCultuum said:

One simple improvement for the Hyborem's Whisper spell might for the Infernals to take control not only of the city itself, but also of all the units in the city.

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Wouldn't that exacerbate the problem of the spell's adversely affecting only one opposing player, and therefore being particularly frustrating for that one player? Other world spells may be annoying, as Valkrionn pointed out, but if you're on the receiving end of, e.g., Stasis or Worldbreak, you know that everyone else is suffering the same thing, so it's annoying but no more.

Three of your four suggestions are the blight. The fourth is majorly op.

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Krieger, I take it this was addressed to me? Other ideas are more than welcome, I certainly don't pretend to have all the answers. I was trying to come up with a better Infernal world spell, and I thought these might work thematically. I think I know which one you think is OP (the third option, giving the Infernals one unit for each "evil" unit in the world) -- that could be toned down, make it a % chance per each unit, with a numerical cap (maybe scaled with map size).

More suggestions are good.

Every time I update to the next svn, I get a lot of xml errors coming from the CvgameCore, and reverting and trying the redo doesn't help. I've had to delete the mod and try again which works temporalily and then it messes up again. Any ideas how to fix this?

EDIT: I have commented on this before, and it is always the same problem. Love the mod, and can't wait for the next major changes!

Valkrionn said:

Didn't really intend to, I'd read your post while I was busy and read his while I wasn't, is all.

That said: No such mechanic would be forthcoming, honestly, as it is FAR simpler to just plop a lair down on a likely tile than write AI able to take a settler unit from one lair, to a suitable location, in a way that isn't completely mindless (IE, leads to discovering regions that are nothing BUT barb lairs) or result in a feedback loop (locusts).

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I guess I really didn't think that one out too well.
Having a hive barb/animal would be pretty cool though. Maybe, entire regions of ice/snow terrain that are covered in hives made by the ice insects used by the frozen? Most civs don't settle ice areas anyway, and the doviello and the frozen(if you use them) could take care of them pretty easily.

They would produce a queen every 30-40 turns, and plop her down 3-4 tiles away? It would help stop some of the ill-placed barb cities.

@Noreaster New World Spell-The Forsaken Path: For 5 turns infernal units that die in combat create a hellish flames in the square they died, that spawns units for the infernal civ.(The AI would be weighted to use this during a war, or when they have a stack of units in enemy territory). Enemy units killed add mana to your stockpile equal to (.5 * level), or some other value depending on how mana is handled.

I just dislike some of the other ideas because they pretty much kill any momentum you had going for you in a war(or at least the blight effect does), not to mention half your skeletons. The third option was a good idea though. Especially if OO are taken out of that equation in 1.4. Sorry for sort of pouncing on your idea back there.

Reinstalled the game, again, and updated it. Seems to work fine now. I haven't been paying attention for a while, so why are their like 30 civics with a fist as a logo and no effect?

Krieger66 said:

@Noreaster New World Spell-The Forsaken Path: For 5 turns infernal units that die in combat create a hellish flames in the square they died, that spawns units for the infernal civ.(The AI would be weighted to use this during a war, or when they have a stack of units in enemy territory). Enemy units killed add mana to your stockpile equal to (.5 * level), or some other value depending on how mana is handled.

I just dislike some of the other ideas because they pretty much kill any momentum you had going for you in a war(or at least the blight effect does), not to mention half your skeletons. The third option was a good idea though. Especially if OO are taken out of that equation in 1.4. Sorry for sort of pouncing on your idea back there.

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No apology needed, I was simply trying to start a discussion.

Blight didn't even occur to me as I was thinking about this, tbh. I was instead looking at the Mercurian world spell, which damages all Demonic and Undead units in the world, and also at the mechanism by which the Infernals gain units, and trying to come up with something kind of based on one or both of those.

The Forsaken Path -- interesting idea. You're right that the AI would have to be programmed to use it when its units were in a position to engage the enemy, otherwise they'd cast it on the first turn when they declared war against a far-off opponent, and the 5 turns would end before the first battle. I wonder if 5 turns would be enough -- the Elohim world spell lasts 30 turns, for example. I'm not saying this should go for 30 turns, that would be too long, but maybe 10? And anyway, would probably have to scale with game speed.

I would instead say that all existing units receive a promotion which causes them to spawn this fire when they die, and then limit how long the fire itself lasts, rather than limit how long they can be created.

Valkrionn said:

I would instead say that all existing units receive a promotion which causes them to spawn this fire when they die, and then limit how long the fire itself lasts, rather than limit how long they can be created.

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Nice!

Looks like we have some movement on the Infernal world spell. As always, appreciate your openness to suggestions and to considering new approaches.