Ronnie1
Deity
Screens look good!
Is the stone quarried?
Is the stone quarried?
SGOTM 15 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Ronnie1
Deity
I'd bet Meditation!
Grifftavian
Emperor
Not that I can tell. IMO, worst case scenario is that an AI Civ researched Monotheism and founded Judaism the "normal way". That would mean that whichever Civ did found Judaism via Monotheism is in position to take Theology from The Oracle like we are planning to do.Thank goodness for CopperI'll give you full credit for finding it Griff
What to do with it? Continue the peaceful play up to Theology + CoL, safe in the knowledge we have decent units if we are attacked? Or plan a preemptive strike on one of our enemies?
It is possible that the founding of Judaism was actually someone discovering Meditation, rather than Monotheism. Does the save indicate which of Medi or Mono still give a religion?
RE: Play it safe/Preemptive strike. Our power ratio vs. Toku is in the red at 0.5, so we need a few Axemen/Spearmen just to even the ratio a bit. Probably time to built a Barracks someplace now as well. Would we need Cats to take out Toku or Hammurgawa since they both have the Protective trait?
Yes, the Stone is Quarried. It looks like the Workers are still building the Quarry, but if you hover your mouse over the tile, it says Quarry, and Stone is shown as available in the city screens of Delhi and Bombay.
NOTE: I did not revolt to Slavery, but we should be able to revolt this turn and 1-pop whip both the Settler in Delhi and the Monument in Bombay since we are Spiritual and have no Anarchy from Civics changes.
adrianj
Deity
I'm not really in favour of attacking aggressive/protective AIs with castle capitals with only axes and spears, so I think our best option for the short term is to go for our targeted tech gambits: CoL and Theology.
Revolting to slavery I think is a given, since we do it for free. That said, I don't think we should whip in either Bombay or Delhi since both are working very strong tiles (at least should be, Delhi could swap to Marble instead of GMine). Bombay has an extra reason not to whip, so it can have some population to build the Oracle quickly. Vijay can whip its monument noce it grows.
Our Oracle options:
Short term goals:
Tech: Priesthood -> Monotheism -> (Oracle Theology) -> ??? -> Writing -> CoL.
Builds: Oracle (in Bombay). Pyramids (in Delhi). Barracks + 1 or 2 axes (in ???)
Settle Gold/Deer city.
Get fog busters in to position.
I'd like to see us really squeeze out the very best from our empire to reach all these goals in the shortest time possible. Oracle Theology and build Pyramids have the strictest time limits so should be priority #1.
Revolting to slavery I think is a given, since we do it for free. That said, I don't think we should whip in either Bombay or Delhi since both are working very strong tiles (at least should be, Delhi could swap to Marble instead of GMine). Bombay has an extra reason not to whip, so it can have some population to build the Oracle quickly. Vijay can whip its monument noce it grows.
Our Oracle options:
- Theology. Original plan was to bulb this with the Stonehenge Priest, but that's looking like it could take some time. Prereq Monotheism. Cost 780.
- Code of Laws. This was the idea that I liked most originally. Prereq Writing. Cost 546.
- Metal Casting. A high value tech, though not as high as Theology. Could shoot for fast forge and early GEngineer. Prereq Pottery. Cost 702.
- Civil Service. I very much doubt we can pull this off even if we wanted to.
- Education. Just kidding
Short term goals:
Tech: Priesthood -> Monotheism -> (Oracle Theology) -> ??? -> Writing -> CoL.
Builds: Oracle (in Bombay). Pyramids (in Delhi). Barracks + 1 or 2 axes (in ???)
Settle Gold/Deer city.
Get fog busters in to position.
I'd like to see us really squeeze out the very best from our empire to reach all these goals in the shortest time possible. Oracle Theology and build Pyramids have the strictest time limits so should be priority #1.
adrianj
Deity
Turns To Monotheism
At our current tech rate I think we can average 28
/turn, with two turns at 35/turn to learn PH. Therefore, PH learned in 2 turns, with maybe 6 overflow. Mono costs 187. We produce (28+1)*1.2 = 34. So it should take us 6 turns - with something like 17 overflow. Then writing at (28+1)*1.4 = 40/turn (extra bonus for optional prereq) so we learn writing in 5 turns. Both of them in 2+6+5 = 13 turns from now, or EOT 69. 1240 BC
Bombay Oracle Build
If we don't complete monument straight away, but instead whip it a couple of turns prior to Mono being learned, we could use the overflow to complete the Oracle the same turn as Mono. A plan something like:
T57: Monument EOT 21/30.
T58: Monument EOT 25/30.
T59: Start Oracle. EOT 8/150.
T60-T63: Size 2 building Oracle. EOT 40/150. Add a forest chop to get to 80/150.
T64: Grow to size 3, change to monument and whip. +34 to monument generates 29 overflow.
T65: Work gold+Gmine, generates 2*(29+7) = 72. Oracle completes with 152/150. (slightly more if Hindu spreads and we've revolted to Organised Religion)
Alternatively, don't bother growing to size 3 and whip the city down to size 1.
T57-58: Monument up to 25/30.
T59: Working sheep+gold. Oracle 8/150.
T60-62: Working gold+gmine. Oracle 50/150. Add a forest chop 90/150.
T63: switch to monument and whip, working gold. 29 overflow.
T64: 2*(29+4) = 66. Oracle completes with 156/150. 1440 BC Forget about all this. Building Oracle in 13 turns should be no problem.
Delhi Pyramids Build
With copper we must be producing something like 17/turn for the settler build - currently at 80/100? MM something like:
T57-58: complete settler. 14 overflow.
T59: Start Pyramids. EOT 2*(14+13) = 54/500.
T60-65: Size 4. Revolt to Organised Religion T65. 313/500. First chop = 358/500.
T66: Size 5. 2.25*16/turn = 36. 394/500. Second chop = 439/500.
T67: 475/500. Third chop completes Pyramids with 520/500. 1320 BC.
The 3 chops essentially save us 4 turns. Given that both GW and SH have been built, we probably shouldn't delay Pyramids build any more than we have to.
At our current tech rate I think we can average 28
/turn, with two turns at 35/turn to learn PH. Therefore, PH learned in 2 turns, with maybe 6 overflow. Mono costs 187. We produce (28+1)*1.2 = 34. So it should take us 6 turns - with something like 17 overflow. Then writing at (28+1)*1.4 = 40/turn (extra bonus for optional prereq) so we learn writing in 5 turns. Both of them in 2+6+5 = 13 turns from now, or EOT 69. 1240 BCBombay Oracle Build
T57: Monument EOT 21/30.
T58: Monument EOT 25/30.
T59: Start Oracle. EOT 8/150.
T60-T63: Size 2 building Oracle. EOT 40/150. Add a forest chop to get to 80/150.
T64: Grow to size 3, change to monument and whip. +34 to monument generates 29 overflow.
T65: Work gold+Gmine, generates 2*(29+7) = 72. Oracle completes with 152/150. (slightly more if Hindu spreads and we've revolted to Organised Religion)
Alternatively, don't bother growing to size 3 and whip the city down to size 1.
T57-58: Monument up to 25/30.
T59: Working sheep+gold. Oracle 8/150.
T60-62: Working gold+gmine. Oracle 50/150. Add a forest chop 90/150.
T63: switch to monument and whip, working gold. 29 overflow.
T64: 2*(29+4) = 66. Oracle completes with 156/150. 1440 BC
Delhi Pyramids Build
With copper we must be producing something like 17/turn for the settler build - currently at 80/100? MM something like:
T57-58: complete settler. 14 overflow.
T59: Start Pyramids. EOT 2*(14+13) = 54/500.
T60-65: Size 4. Revolt to Organised Religion T65. 313/500. First chop = 358/500.
T66: Size 5. 2.25*16/turn = 36. 394/500. Second chop = 439/500.
T67: 475/500. Third chop completes Pyramids with 520/500. 1320 BC.
The 3 chops essentially save us 4 turns. Given that both GW and SH have been built, we probably shouldn't delay Pyramids build any more than we have to.
Grifftavian
Emperor
I should have caught that! Doesn't make any difference on the build time for the Settler, but does give us two more 
which helps our research/treasury.Writing is also a prerequisite for Theology, so need that prior to The Oracle being completed. Monotheism & Writing both cost 187
to research; need to look at the timing of researching one of those two techs while The Oracle is being built, so that the tech being researched (Mono/Writing) is learned <= the completion of The Oracle.
adrianj
Deity
Ah, right, Theology needs Writing. So the chop in Bombay and other whipping cleverness is irrelevant since it basically has an extra 5 turns to work with. This will push out the Oracle build to 1240 BC.
The only way we could get this earlier is by putting extra effort into generating/. At present we can average something like 26/turn. With Vijay connected to trade and Delhi working the Marble we can get that up to 29. That should be enough to save us a turn, ie, Oracle built 1280 BC. The added cost of city #4 could make it very close. Perhaps this is a reason to favour the city site 1SW of the gold, as opposed to 1S2W? Indeed, the extra from an early gold mine could even shave off another turn from the Oracle build.
We still need to choose which to get first: Mono or Writing. I suggest Mono as Organised Religion will help Delhi's Pyramid build and the earlier we take it the better chance we have of founding a religion. One benefit of Writing - Open Borders - isn't going to help us at all. The other benefit - libraries - we won't be building just yet, at least not till Pyramids and Oracle are done.
Do we have an accurate test game? i wouldn't mind playing around with this stuff.
The only way we could get this earlier is by putting extra effort into generating
/. At present we can average something like 26/turn. With Vijay connected to trade and Delhi working the Marble we can get that up to 29. That should be enough to save us a turn, ie, Oracle built 1280 BC. The added cost of city #4 could make it very close. Perhaps this is a reason to favour the city site 1SW of the gold, as opposed to 1S2W? Indeed, the extra from an early gold mine could even shave off another turn from the Oracle build.We still need to choose which to get first: Mono or Writing. I suggest Mono as Organised Religion will help Delhi's Pyramid build and the earlier we take it the better chance we have of founding a religion. One benefit of Writing - Open Borders - isn't going to help us at all. The other benefit - libraries - we won't be building just yet, at least not till Pyramids and Oracle are done.
Do we have an accurate test game? i wouldn't mind playing around with this stuff.
JerichoHill
Bedrock of Knowledge
Hi Guys
I'm available as a lurker/advisor this game. I went awol due to some sickness and also a big job change (a very good thing).
glad to see you all doing well!
I'm available as a lurker/advisor this game. I went awol due to some sickness and also a big job change (a very good thing).
glad to see you all doing well!
adrianj
Deity
I've played around with the old test game to try bring it up to speed. I'm sure things are nowhere near exact, especially all the worker moves. Here is the save 1 turn prior to the current game - I've run out of time to get it complete, perhaps someone else can finish off this turn and try to match up all the food/hammers/science?
It's about as good as I can get it I think.
I notice that our distance maintenance is larger in the real game than the test. This suggests that the actual size of the map is greater in the test game than in the real game. So... most likely the real game isn't a terra map.
Looking at the real save - Buddhism is still available if we tech meditation (has the little icon). Monotheism does not give Judaism (no icon). So it was the worst case scenario after all, an AI has learned Monotheism.
It's about as good as I can get it I think.
I notice that our distance maintenance is larger in the real game than the test. This suggests that the actual size of the map is greater in the test game than in the real game. So... most likely the real game isn't a terra map.
Looking at the real save - Buddhism is still available if we tech meditation (has the little icon). Monotheism does not give Judaism (no icon). So it was the worst case scenario after all, an AI has learned Monotheism.
adrianj
Deity
I played out the test game. Building the Oracle EOT 1280 BC was possible, with 1 chop. Problem was, in the test game the AI built it in 1320 BC...
I'm back from holidays as well, will catch up in the next couple of days.
Ronnie1
Deity
I am back from an impromptu road trip also!
I am very surprised Monotheism went ahead of Meditation. That definitely puts us in jeopardy of missing Theology and the AP.
LAST CALL for mc-red, are you out there?
Ozbenno will be up if mc-red does not respond in 24 hours.
I am very surprised Monotheism went ahead of Meditation. That definitely puts us in jeopardy of missing Theology and the AP.
Any guess on what/size map we are actually playing?
LAST CALL for mc-red, are you out there?
Ozbenno will be up if mc-red does not respond in 24 hours.
Grifftavian
Emperor
An early Gold Mine for City #4 suggests that we need to get a Fast Worker up the that city site with or ahead of the Settler from Bombay. The two FW's who have just built the Stone Quarry should be available for new duties next turn. I'll suggest sending one to finish the road to Vijay, and sending the other to City Site #4. If we decide to found City #4 1SW of Gold as aj suggests, perhaps this FW could chop the forest on that tile before the Settler gets there in order to give us a few extraAh, right, Theology needs Writing. So the chop in Bombay and other whipping cleverness is irrelevant since it basically has an extra 5 turns to work with. This will push out the Oracle build to 1240 BC.
The only way we could get this earlier is by putting extra effort into generating
in Vijay.I also like Mono before Writing. Would that make our near term tech path...
Priesthood -> Monotheism -> Writing -> [Oracle Theology] Code of Laws?
adrianj
Deity
The way I played out the test game was along the lines of this:
1st worker completes road to Vijay.
2nd worker prechops the forest WNW of Delhi.
Both workers then build road all the way to new city site.
On same turn new city is founded, both workers move to gold and start improving.
This gets the gold connected 2 turns after the city is founded.
Meanwhile Bombay does NOT complete the monument, but switches to Oracle build as soon as PH is learned.
Delhi starts on Pyramids after Settler.
Bombay's worker complete the gmine, then chops forest 1N of Bombay (part farm en route).
Worker then moves toward Delhi, part build a gmine 2E of Delhi.
Bombay switches to monument and whips it the turn prior to Writing tech (where it shows 2 turns remaining)
Chop forests N and NNE of Delhi.
Other two workers come home and chop forest WNW of Delhi.
Vijay I wasn't putting much focus on for the test game. It whipped the monument and then continued with the worker build.
As I said, this had the Oracle + Mono/Writing techs due to complete EOT 1280 BC. The bottleneck was. Hence the emphasis on getting city #4's gold mine built. We might be able to improve a little by squeezing out extra wherever we can. E.g., not whipping Vijay and have it work a usually-lame riverside grass tile. Or put more emphasis on growth in Delhi by working the floodplain instead of stone.
1st worker completes road to Vijay.
2nd worker prechops the forest WNW of Delhi.
Both workers then build road all the way to new city site.
On same turn new city is founded, both workers move to gold and start improving.
This gets the gold connected 2 turns after the city is founded.
Meanwhile Bombay does NOT complete the monument, but switches to Oracle build as soon as PH is learned.
Delhi starts on Pyramids after Settler.
Bombay's worker complete the gmine, then chops forest 1N of Bombay (part farm en route).
Worker then moves toward Delhi, part build a gmine 2E of Delhi.
Bombay switches to monument and whips it the turn prior to Writing tech (where it shows 2 turns remaining)
Chop forests N and NNE of Delhi.
Other two workers come home and chop forest WNW of Delhi.
Vijay I wasn't putting much focus on for the test game. It whipped the monument and then continued with the worker build.
As I said, this had the Oracle + Mono/Writing techs due to complete EOT 1280 BC. The bottleneck was
. Hence the emphasis on getting city #4's gold mine built. We might be able to improve a little by squeezing out extra wherever we can. E.g., not whipping Vijay and have it work a usually-lame riverside grass tile. Or put more emphasis on growth in Delhi by working the floodplain instead of stone.
Ronnie1
Deity
The roster order on 02/16
Conquistador63 = in the hole
Ronnie1 = waiting
sleepless = waiting
McArine = waiting
adrianj = waiting
Grifftavian = just played
mc-red = skipped no response
Ozbenno = UP NOW
da_Vinci = on deck - no posts for quite some time, C63 likely on deck
Conquistador63 = in the hole
Ronnie1 = waiting
sleepless = waiting
McArine = waiting
adrianj = waiting
Grifftavian = just played
mc-red = skipped no response
Ozbenno = UP NOW
da_Vinci = on deck - no posts for quite some time, C63 likely on deck
OK got it.
Give me a couple of days for a PPP.
Give me a couple of days for a PPP.
Conquistador 63
Deity
I'm leaving tomorrow and will return after feb 25, might have only limited internet access during this period.
PPP: T57/1720 BC until completion of Monotheism maybe
RESEARCH
finish Priesthood
Monotheism
CITY BUILDS
Delhi
Finish settler
Pyramids???
Bombay
monument (2t)
switch to Oracle after Priesthood learnt
Vijay
finish monument
Fast Worker???
FAST WORKER ACTION PLAN
ALL: Build mines and chop out Oracle/Pyramids
UNIT MOVES
Injured warrior: Heal, only promote if needed (combat 1)
Exploring warrior: Keep exploring
THE OTHER STUFF
Change to OR when Mono researched
Settle new city where injured warrior is
REASONS TO PAUSE
Meeting a new AI Civ
Pesky Barbarian encrochment
Anything unusual happens
RESEARCH
finish Priesthood
Monotheism
CITY BUILDS
Delhi
Finish settler
Pyramids???
Bombay
monument (2t)
switch to Oracle after Priesthood learnt
Vijay
finish monument
Fast Worker???
FAST WORKER ACTION PLAN
ALL: Build mines and chop out Oracle/Pyramids
UNIT MOVES
Injured warrior: Heal, only promote if needed (combat 1)
Exploring warrior: Keep exploring
THE OTHER STUFF
Change to OR when Mono researched
Settle new city where injured warrior is
REASONS TO PAUSE
Meeting a new AI Civ
Pesky Barbarian encrochment
Anything unusual happens
